Tkd Dead?

Brad Dunne

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Had this e-mailed to me from a TKD Organization/Federation. Just thought I'd share.

Subject: Taekwondo is dead!


It looks as if WTF Taeklwondo is now just a sport and Taekwondo as a Martial Art is dead!
Here is some very recent news from WTF
WTF President Chungwon Choue accepted the resignation of WTF Secretary General Dong-hoo Moon on Jan. 8, 2007, signaling the launch of drastic administrative reforms within the WTF Secretariat.
President Choue said he will name a new secretary general and carry out a far-reaching personnel reshuffle this month, while introducing a package of reforms to the Secretariat that include an annual salary system on a contractual basis and a quarterly performance evaluation system for WTF staff.
President Choue also said that he will gradually increase the number of non-Koreans working for the WTF Secretariat as part of his efforts to remake the WTF into a truly global sports federation.
Dr. Choue also accepted the resignation of Mr. Yoon-taek Lim, deputy secretary general for the Sport Division and Refereeing Division, and Mr. Sean Kim, deputy secretary general for marketing and public relations.
Also offering to resign to give President Choue wider latitude in implementing internal reforms was Mr. Manseek Choe, deputy secretary general for the General Affairs Division and the Planning and Finance Division. However, WTF President Choue asked him to stay to assist the incoming secretary general in carrying out major WTF projects, including the World Taekwondo Championships scheduled for May in Beijing.
During a press conference held at the WTF headquarters on Jan. 10, President Choue said that he would carry out the reform programs described in the WTF Reform Report without fail. "I will transform the WTF in a drastic way and put more internationally minded and professional staff into the secretariat to make the WTF a truly global sports federation, helping taekwondo retain its Olympic status for good."
"Reform is the only way for the WTF to survive, and without change the WTF has no meaning to its existence. With sweeping organizational change, the WTF will soon embark on a new start," Dr. Choue said.
On Dec. 26, 2006, WTF President Choue suspended all WTF personnel of their duties, including the WTF secretary general. The following week, on Jan. 2, Dr. Choue announced that WTF Secretary General Moon had submitted his resignation that morning.
Mr. Moon said of his resignation, "I have decided to tender my resignation, bearing responsibility for not smoothly managing overall WTF matters." "I thought my resignation will help reform the WTF Secretariat."
And Dr. Choue reiterated the importance of bringing sweeping reform to the WTF Secretariat by saying, "If taekwondo were not an Olympic sport, then it would be a different story. But as long as taekwondo is an Olympic sport, this style of management does not make sense. We have no choice but to do our best to be reborn as a truly international sport federation."
 

andyjeffries

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I don't understand why the originator of that email considers Taekwondo is dead. As far as I understand the situation, a committee was set up to make recommendations for the reform of the WTF to improve areas it was sorely lacking. Dr Choue has basically stated he'll implement all of those recommendations and one of them is a change of leadership at the top. Therefore all of the senior members resigned (except for one Deputy Secretary IIRC so that he may assist the new senior members in getting up to speed quickly).

So, I don't understand why it's a bad thing. This isn't senior people deserting a sinking ship: it's people recognising that they didn't do a perfect job and stepping down gracefully so someone else can.
 

Andrew Green

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I think he is referring to it reforming to better fit the needs of the sport, and promote that.

Big suprise? A sports organization that is a member of the Olympic committee wants to further itself as a sport. Seems like a good thing, recognizing that they need to change there structure to fit a model that they aren't currently fitting into very well.
 

Last Fearner

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I don't understand why the originator of that email considers Taekwondo is dead.

I agree with you Andy. I wonder who was the source of the e-mail, and if they represent any major Taekwondo body. These are positive changes that needed to be made in light of past mistakes and corruption. Those who have been involved in the sporting aspect of Taekwondo have long complained about the problems associated with the politics within. Now, someone wants to complain because they are making overt changes.

The way I see it, this is also the same old confusion people have had about the difference between a side venture of sport entertainment (as serious and important as it is to the Korean people for its popularity), and the true source of Korean Martial Art. Taekwondo - itself - is not solely a sport. It can be practiced and participated in as such, therefore it needs proper rules, regulations, promotion, and guidance. That is the purpose of the WTF.

The WTF is not, and never was the source of Taekwondo. Like the ITF, the WTF was created by those who already practice the true art of Korean Taekwondo. The original ITF was changed from its KTA authorized status, and became the personal organization for General Choi Hong Hi. The original WTF was created for a specific purpose, but that purpose has changed to accommodate the need for governing the sport aspect.

Genuine Taekwondo Masters might or might not become directly involved in the Olympics, or any tournaments. It is within the Kukkiwon, the KTA in Korea, in each of the various Kwans, and in the hearts, minds, and spirit of each Taekwondo practitioner around the world that Taekwondo lives, and always will. Let the games go on, and let people have fun. This does not destroy what is strong enough to survive for centuries.

TAEKWONDO LIVES!!!! :ultracool

CM D.J. Eisenhart
 

TKDmel

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I personally am glad to see that the sport aspect is finally getting it together. My only concern is that many uninformed people will think that the sport is all that there is to TKD, however, if schools/instructors pass on the traditions that have made TKD endure, then there will always be the "art" of Tae Kwon Do.
 

Touch Of Death

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This is a tough situation. People are going to bennefit physically no matter how unrealistic the training becomes. They will feel better, stronger, and will probably be able to handle themselves in situations they couldn't before. However, the occasional reality checks (street fights) will open some eyes. I think I just described any system; so, just train and stop worrying about the whole and concentrate on what you do.
Sean
 

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Taekwondo - itself - is not solely a sport. It can be practiced and participated in as such, therefore it needs proper rules, regulations, promotion, and guidance. That is the purpose of the WTF...Genuine Taekwondo Masters might or might not become directly involved in the Olympics, or any tournaments. It is within the Kukkiwon, the KTA in Korea, in each of the various Kwans, and in the hearts, minds, and spirit of each Taekwondo practitioner around the world that Taekwondo lives, and always will. Let the games go on, and let people have fun. This does not destroy what is strong enough to survive for centuries.

TAEKWONDO LIVES!!!! :ultracool

CM D.J. Eisenhart

Well said, LFand the above is pretty much all that needs to be said, in a nice pithy nutshell. The resources are out there for people who want to study TKD as an effective combat system, and there are dojangs where they can pursue that study, if that's what they (like many of us!) really want.

I'm somewhat perplexed by the motivation behind e-mail that Brad forwarded to usBrad, can you tell us the source of that e-note, and what their stake in all this business might be?
 

terryl965

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Man Lord people if TKD is dead I better close up shop and start a new career
 
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Brad Dunne

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Taekwondo - itself - is not solely a sport.

Those that are involved within TKD and have been lucky enough to have tasted non-sport TKD understands this statement. Sadly, the majority of folks looking at TKD from the outside in only see a "sport' and management wishes to keep it that way. The organization that sent the information was just offering information with no alternative agenda as far as I could see, for they also play the sport version. All this information does is IMO, is give creedence to what most know and feel and that is TKD as a true martial art is going the way of the DoDo bird. This is not to say that there will not be those that try to keep the true MA's aspects alive, but even some of those dojangs get caught up in the tournament mindset. There's an old saying, "One can't serve two masters". There are those that feel they can, but in the long run will find that they are wrong, for another saying says it all........."You fight like you train".........
 

terryl965

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Taekwondo - itself - is not solely a sport.

Those that are involved within TKD and have been lucky enough to have tasted non-sport TKD understands this statement. Sadly, the majority of folks looking at TKD from the outside in only see a "sport' and management wishes to keep it that way. The organization that sent the information was just offering information with no alternative agenda as far as I could see, for they also play the sport version. All this information does is IMO, is give creedence to what most know and feel and that is TKD as a true martial art is going the way of the DoDo bird. This is not to say that there will not be those that try to keep the true MA's aspects alive, but even some of those dojangs get caught up in the tournament mindset. There's an old saying, "One can't serve two masters". There are those that feel they can, but in the long run will find that they are wrong, for another saying says it all........."You fight like you train".........


Brad I find it ironic that your last statement say you fight as you train, should that not be you defend as you train, and as far a serving to Master I have one that is GOD the all mighty everybody else is just like me human with flaws.

You see TKD can never be died either sport or real for one simple reason you can not kill what can not be killed, company can die but true Martial Arts will always be around it will keep involving and growing but the mindset will always be there.

Tournament are a great tool for the mind and please do not give me that hogwash like your last statement, nobody train relisticaly for street fighting, boxer train for the sport Muey Tai fighters triain for the sport K=1 Pride and UFC train for the sport, so probaly 85-92 percent all folks are training for some sort of sport wheather they admit it or not.

Yes I'm a old timer but even then we did tournament to test are abilities and we still do today just at a more safer way.

Well I'm off my soapbox and ready for the grief that all will give me so bring it on.
 
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Brad Dunne

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Well I'm off my soapbox and ready for the grief that all will give me so bring it on.

No grief intended, just a continuation of a discussion with perhaps a little added attitude.

Terry, Iv'e watched your postings and demeaner for some time now and you have always attempted to foster a positive image as to your rebuttals on subjects that you don't fully agree with. I find it hard to understand your frustration(s) with my post. So here's my reply..............

"do not give me that hogwash like your last statement"...........

OK, If it's hogwash you want then it's hogwash you'll get. This subject, TKD sport has been listed and talked about too many times to even try to go back and give examples. Many folks have agreed as to the dis-service that the sport venue has done to the art. You like to present yourself as old school, but your still wrapped up in the tournament agenda, somewhat of a contradiction in my eyes. Now you may pride yourself that your teaching real self defense within the context of tournament training and perhaps you just may have a gifted insight into how the two factions can be successfully merged, but I would venture to say that you would be in a class by yourself. Hense the reference "two masters". Attempting to justify your position with I'm old school and tournament fighting allows one to test their abilities is..........well that's hogwash. Why? well because years ago when folks went to test their abilities in a tournament, they where allowed spinning back fists, ridge hands, punches, grabbing for takedowns and sweeps and even some allowed groin kicks. Those abilities had/have greater street applications and are so far removed from today's TKD sparring that were comparing apples to oranges.

As for understanding the principle of serving two masters, God has nothing to do with that statement, but I think you know that. Really didn't need such a statement to be interjected into the discussion.

"you fight as you train, should that not be you defend as you train"

Why you wish to play the semantics game is beyond me? I'll just leave it at that.

I commend you for your passion for your discipline and for your constant attempts to increase the learning venues for your students. Not many instructors are willing to take such steps. Your students are very fortunate............:asian:
 

terryl965

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Well I'm off my soapbox and ready for the grief that all will give me so bring it on.

No grief intended, just a continuation of a discussion with perhaps a little added attitude.

Terry, Iv'e watched your postings and demeaner for some time now and you have always attempted to foster a positive image as to your rebuttals on subjects that you don't fully agree with. I find it hard to understand your frustration(s) with my post. So here's my reply..............

"do not give me that hogwash like your last statement"...........

OK, If it's hogwash you want then it's hogwash you'll get. This subject, TKD sport has been listed and talked about too many times to even try to go back and give examples. Many folks have agreed as to the dis-service that the sport venue has done to the art. You like to present yourself as old school, but your still wrapped up in the tournament agenda, somewhat of a contradiction in my eyes. Now you may pride yourself that your teaching real self defense within the context of tournament training and perhaps you just may have a gifted insight into how the two factions can be successfully merged, but I would venture to say that you would be in a class by yourself. Hense the reference "two masters". Attempting to justify your position with I'm old school and tournament fighting allows one to test their abilities is..........well that's hogwash. Why? well because years ago when folks went to test their abilities in a tournament, they where allowed spinning back fists, ridge hands, punches, grabbing for takedowns and sweeps and even some allowed groin kicks. Those abilities had/have greater street applications and are so far removed from today's TKD sparring that were comparing apples to oranges.

As for understanding the principle of serving two masters, God has nothing to do with that statement, but I think you know that. Really didn't need such a statement to be interjected into the discussion.

"you fight as you train, should that not be you defend as you train"

Why you wish to play the semantics game is beyond me? I'll just leave it at that.

I commend you for your passion for your discipline and for your constant attempts to increase the learning venues for your students. Not many instructors are willing to take such steps. Your students are very fortunate............:asian:


Brad I respect you as a poster and as a person although I do not personally know you, Yes you are right I'm frustrated with all of this BS over the years, plus I was home sick with the flu but that is my problem. After reading my post I can see where it came off the wrong direction so here I go trying to explain again.

Up until five years ago I never ever did Olympic sparring my oldest son got the notion he wanted to train and try to make the Olympic dream, so I added Olympic style sparring to my school core for those that wanted it, me personally if it does not allow you to sweep backfist kick to the legs than it is not what I was thought. I hope this explain a little bit here and there when we teach the other classes they are like old time training and that is my love for the Art of TKD and you have always heard me say that.

I;m sorry if it came acroos the way it did and it truely brothers me that it did.

Thank you for the insight.
Terry
 

TKDmel

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You like to present yourself as old school, but your still wrapped up in the tournament agenda, somewhat of a contradiction in my eyes.

Why should it be taken as a condradiction? TKD encompasses many facets of the same thing. Self-defense, traditional teachings, and the more modern sport aspect. I look at TKD as a tapestry. No one thread is more or less important than another. Without one key thread it may all fall apart, and each individual practicing TKD decides which thead is most important to them.

Now you may pride yourself that your teaching real self defense within the context of tournament training and perhaps you just may have a gifted insight into how the two factions can be successfully merged, but I would venture to say that you would be in a class by yourself.

I guess he is in a class of two! More years ago than I care to admit, I was trained by a master who dealt heavily upon the traditional ways. I truely believe in his teachings and try to pass on the old ways to whom ever is willing to absorb those teachings. Just like my master, I try to get people to understand the different reasons for training. My master taught self-defense, complete with stikes to the face, knees, groin, etc., and made us understand that while its basics are TKD, its still a different animal from regular sparring or poomse. He also had a successful olympic style sparring program for those who were interested. The different aspects of TKD can and are successfully merged if instructed well. From the posts that I have read from Terry, I would consider myself lucky to train there as I think he has an excellent grasp of TKD as a whole, and I think that anyone who downplays one aspect over another, has not gotten the point that no matter whether its sport, self-defense, or traditional training, we need students to become involved in order for TKD to thrive in these modern times.
 
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Brad Dunne

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I;m sorry if it came acroos the way it did and it truely brothers me that it did.

Don't give it a second thought, I somehow had a feeling that you were not yourself. Sorry that you were under the weather with the flu. My apologies to the reference of "tournament agenda", I forgot that you only added that aspect to your training curriculum and it was because your son wanted to give it a try. I guess we're all kind of suffering "cabin fever" of sorts. If I should ever get the chance to be in your neck of the woods, It would be my honor to drop in and say "howdy" :wavey: That's cowboy talk for all you city slickers......:lol:

Why should it be taken as a condradiction? TKD encompasses many facets of the same thing. Self-defense, traditional teachings, and the more modern sport aspect. I look at TKD as a tapestry. No one thread is more or less important than another. Without one key thread it may all fall apart, and each individual practicing TKD decides which thead is most important to them. (TKDmel)

I agree, but in a limited fashion. When one element, such as the sport aspect, takes the brunt of generalized training that is being offered in the vast majority of schools, then as has been discussed before, the art is being done a dis-service. No need to rehash this, for all we would be doing is :deadhorse
 

Last Fearner

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[Edit: Well, the previous three posts were made while I was composing this reply, so pretty much everything has been said that needs to be said, but since I have already written and posted this, I'll let it stand as I am probably known for saying more than needs to be said - that's just me - lol]

First, I would like to say thank you to Brad for sharing this e-mail with us. While I disagree with the conclusion drawn by the author, it does shed some insight into the viewpoints of others, and gives rise for a healthy discussion of something that interests many of us.

I can understand people believing that training in realistic self defense, and doing tournaments is a contradiction, but I would disagree with that assessment. I believe this type of successful balance of time spent in serious study, and sports entertainment has been a part of many people's lives without unnecessary conflict.

Just as one example, If I were a lawyer, I could be the best lawyer in the country (assuming "best lawyer" is not a contradiction in terms - :) ) At the same time, I could play racquetball, and be pretty good at it. If my priority is my job, and sports are for fun, it does not matter how hard I train to compete, as long as my work does not suffer for it. If the lawyer spends hours on the racquetball court, then walks in the courtroom, and wins the case, what does it matter if he is also a racquetball expert as well.

Now, one might argue that racquetball has nothing to do with jurisprudence, but I might suggest that the lawyer becomes healthier with the exercise, and relieves stress that might otherwise inhibit his performance. Furthermore, winning on the racquetball court might give him the confidence to face a judge and jury and present his case better. If a Taekwondo tournament was the lawyer's preference instead of racquetball, the competition might benefit him the same without being an interference.

Attempting to justify your position with I'm old school and tournament fighting allows one to test their abilities is..........well that's hogwash. Why? well because years ago when folks went to test their abilities in a tournament, they where allowed spinning back fists, ridge hands, punches, grabbing for takedowns and sweeps and even some allowed groin kicks. Those abilities had/have greater street applications and are so far removed from today's TKD sparring that were comparing apples to oranges.
I understand your point here, as many do take that position when comparing realistic training to tournament sparring. My position has been this. While it is true the difference it techniques used in tournaments, and the rules enforced, do prevent an exact duplication of street fighting, there are many more benefits gained during competition that do relate directly to self defense.

The primary way to test and improve your street-fighting skills would be to get into several street fights. Since most instructors do not encourage this behavior, the second best method, in my opinion, is to engage in challenges against opponents with whom you are not familiar. Competition that has little or no rules comes closer to realistic street defense, but is very dangerous, and sometimes counter-productive.

To spar in Taekwondo competition often builds up nervousness in anticipation, and teaches the fighter how to control themselves, and keep a clear head when in a stressfull environment. The stamina that it takes to last a match often exceeds that which is required for a street fight, but prepares you for the long encounter.

A tournament match does not cover all of the skills needed for street defense (multiple attackers, opponents outside your weight-class, wearing street clothes, cluttered environment, and uneven or slippery floor surface, etc.), but it does offer some pieces of the puzzle that fit together with the rest of your training. I enjoy it, I benefit from it, and it does not distract from, nor contradict my ability to train "old school" for reality.

On the subject of serving "two masters."

As for understanding the principle of serving two masters, God has nothing to do with that statement...
I understand that your use of this phrase was not intended to be taken in a religious context, but I believe it is necessary to understand its original meaning in order to apply it accurately here - at least so that we are all on the same page as to our understanding of what is implied.

From Jesus' sermon on the mount:
Mathew 6:24 "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." (mammon meaning material wealth).

The implication in Taekwondo is that by training for sports, you are taking something away from training for reality. I would agree that if a student focuses more on sport, and does little for realistic self defense, then their self defense abilities will suffer. However, this is a choice and is not an automatic contradiction. If one believes that every waking hour must be spent preparing yourself for combat, then little time is left for anything else.

You must do round-kicks while you eat your breakfast; stretch in the splits between the pews at church; practice back-fists on the passenger head-rest as you drive down the street (please don't do this), and when you meet people, instead of shaking their hand, take them to the ground and put them in a submission hold. Of course I'm being silly here, but I sincerely believe that there is plenty of time for balance in your life. I can complete all of the necessary training for real-life, "old school" self defense, and be just as formidable an opponent in the street as anyone else, yet take time to play sports.

My point, in response to the original e-mail is that the two are different aspects of training, and the existence of one does not bring about the death of the other, nor do they conflict with one another. Sport Taekwondo can compliment and enhance your self defense skills, yet it does not necessarily have to interfere with your self defense training. Those who let competition take priority, might make that sacrifice. Serving two Masters means you place neither one above the other, but attempt to please both. God is not about materialistic wealth, and placing your priorities on gaining wealth rather than serving God is a contradiction to Christianity. It does not mean that you can't be successful, and have wealth. It just warns you not to place your priority of wealth above God. Don't let the pursuit of wealth prevent you from doing God's will, and being a good servant of the Lord.

In Taekwondo, you can play sports, and be an olympic champion, just don't let your priorities get mixed up. If you want to be good at self defense, you must train first and foremost for that. An instructor who provides tournament access and training for his student does not have to let that part of their curriculum interfere with Reality Self Defense Training. It's all about priority, and balance in you life.

CM D.J. Eisenhart
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I also find great value in Master Eisenhart's most recent post, and also in Brad's, Terry's and TKDMel's posts. My problem with competitive TKD is not with the idea of sports competition per se, though that's not an aspect of TKD that I'm personally interested in. My gripe is rather with the scoring system of Olympic-style TKD and the kind of subtle pressure it may encourage in the way dojangs structure their curricula. The problem as I see it is not the existence of sport TKD, or even the emphasis in TKD's `public face' on a certain kind of sparring, but rather the specific practices that WTF-style tournament competition encourages.

I'm particularly unhappy with the way in which Olympic-style sparring (i) discourages hand techs and (ii) rewards head kicks. There's a connection between the two. As recent analyses bunkai analyes of both karate and TKD hyungs have argued (very persuasively, I think), a lot of techs that are labelled and taught as strikes to the mid body, in seemingly combat ineffective ways, can be reinterpreted as very effective strikes to the assailant's lowered head, brought into position by various traps, locks and partial throws implement through the use of muchimi, hikite (I use the Japanese terms only because I don't know what the proper equivalents in Korean would be) and other hand techniques. Very little is more effective than a knee strike to an oppo's lowered face, I would imagine! But because hand techs are actively discouraged from Olympic style TKD, and knees are ruled out, the only ways that you can in practice score point with head shots in competition TKD is by spectacular, but very risky and situationally very impractical kicks to the opponent's unlowered head, where your balance is going to be far more compromised than you'd like in the event of a nasty physical conflict (especially in a confined space)particularly the spinning versions. Such high kicks are dependent on a combat being maintained at fighting ranges which are much further apart than what you find in a the usual bar fight, street fight or sudden, unanticipated, unprovoked attack situationthe kind that a lot of us train MAs in order to come out of in one piece.

If I'm reading Brad correctly, his argument is not necessarily with competition per se, but with just this kind of contest rule system, which takes competitive TKD unnecessarily far from its self-defense application posibilities. Everything that Master Eisenhart has said about the positive by-products of TKD competition is true; but do the conditions under which that competition take place have to reflect the specialized and artificial reward structure of modern Olympic-style compeition? Restoring equal point awards for hand and foot techs, making certain targets currently off-limits legal, and allowing more of the full range of TKD's intimidating arsenal of strikes to come into play, would keep all the advantages of competion that LF lists, but allow a kind of rapprochement between the street-defensive combat application of TKD and its international competitive aspect. Wouldn't this benefit the art as a whole?
 

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Very little is more effective than a knee strike to an oppo's lowered face, I would imagine! But because hand techs are actively discouraged from Olympic style TKD, and knees are ruled out, the only ways that you can in practice score point with head shots in competition TKD is by spectacular, but very risky and situationally very impractical kicks to the opponent's unlowered head, where your balance is going to be far more compromised than you'd like in the event of a nasty physical conflict (especially in a confined space)particularly the spinning versions.

I absolutely agree with this observation and was thrilled when the UFC started setting up a rules that keeps opponents safer than it was in its infancy. Most will remember broken limbs, near deaths from hits to the back of the head. Most will also agree that the "old" UFC was as close to bar-room brawling as it could get. Rules specific to the style of fighting came about for the safety of the players. The same holds true for olympic TKD. With emphasis on the sorts of kicks that are taught through the martial arts. So to highlight those art/sport specific maneuvers the rules became more specific to accomodate the techniques.

Such high kicks are dependent on a combat being maintained at fighting ranges which are much further apart than what you find in a the usual bar fight, street fight or sudden, unanticipated, unprovoked attack situationthe kind that a lot of us train MAs in order to come out of in one piece.

Again I'm on the same page. I definitely would not be able to use my high kicks and flashy techniques in a knockdown, drag out bar fight. My need for close in, hands on stand up and grappleing is what will give me a chance to survive and talk about it later. Something that self-defense or some other form of MA would teach.

If I'm reading Brad correctly, his argument is not necessarily with competition per se, but with just this kind of contest rule system, which takes competitive TKD unnecessarily far from its self-defense application posibilities. Everything that Master Eisenhart has said about the positive by-products of TKD competition is true; but do the conditions under which that competition take place have to reflect the specialized and artificial reward structure of modern Olympic-style compeition? Restoring equal point awards for hand and foot techs, making certain targets currently off-limits legal, and allowing more of the full range of TKD's intimidating arsenal of strikes to come into play, would keep all the advantages of competion that LF lists, but allow a kind of rapprochement between the street-defensive combat application of TKD and its international competitive aspect. Wouldn't this benefit the art as a whole?

In my own personal opinion, if hand strikes to the face/head, and sweeps to the knees were made part of the olympic sparring rules, it would, at least to me, become olympic UFC. JMHO
 

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