US Open Electric Hogus

[terryl965]

Very interesting article on the US open Hogus for competition, if like it said the backkick did not score than this cannot be a good answer for the development of the sport of TKD. What is everyone else take on it.

>Pragalos is responsible for dan issuing conflicts and the controversial
>use of Adidas electronic hogu. . . . and in April of 2008, ETU used
>Adidas electronic hogu, which has not been approved by WTF, at
>the "18th European Taekwondo Championships". Many TKD people
>believe that WTF is losing the support of Europeans. ETU President
>Pragalos is known to have argued viciously against WTF electronic
>hogu committee members on February 3rd.


This is one of the key issues facing the WTF, the electronic hogu. The main
problem I think is that the WTF approved the wrong system. The LaJust
electronic scoring has too many flaws and simply does not work in a
tournament environment.

I heard a lot of feedback on the use of LaJust at this year's US Open and
the word is that LaJust is not the answer.

The first problem is that it was difficult, if not impossible to score back
kicks. Without back kicks, then the Taekwondo game is radically changed.

The second issue was the use of those socks by all competitors. I have been
told that wearing those LaJust socks at US Open was like sticking your feet
in a dirty used gym sock that you found in the locker room. Even if they
took the time to dry those socks out, and sprayed it with disinfectant, you
are still sticking your feet in dirty, used socks. Not good.

Third issue was that the scoring was very spotty. Most times it worked, for
roundhouse, but then sometimes it didn't. So scoring using LaJust was as
inconsistent or more inconsistent than using live corner judges. The rule in
place at US Open was that corners (who were still there to score punches and
head shots) would not score any body shots, even if they saw a clean solid
score which did not get registered by the electronic scoring. So referees
were still required, and still made judgment calls, but needless to say,
people were disappointed with LaJust.

I can understand why the ETU would want to use something other than LaJust
at its tournaments. LaJust seems to not work in the manner that it is
supposed to. Rumor has it that the only reason why LaJust was approved was
because someone got an envelope. I wonder if the envelope, if there was one,
was given to President Choue.

Having not seen the Adidas electronic hogu system, I cannot comment on its
reliability and functionality. I have seen Truescore, which is now been
picked up by Daedo, and can say that it has none of the issues facing
LaJust. Hopefully, with growing support from Europe and other areas of the
world, Daedo, Adidas or some other system, any system other than Dr. Choue's
LaJust system, gets implemented.

 

[troubleenuf]

Not only do they not score correctly but they do not score to the flank... a legal target area. Why would anyone approve something that does not even fit within the rules it was supposed to be designed for?

 

[mango.man]

The only back that I saw score was one that Charlotte Craig landed on her first opponent on Saturday. Not to say others didn't but that is the only one I saw.

Sam fought in the gear on both Saturday and Sunday and we found it to be totally random. I will say that on Friday I asked Charlotte what advice she would give to someone that has never used it and her reply was "front foot". That same advice was seconded by her father later in the day when I was talking to him "front foot under the arm pit". Turns out the only "point" that Sam scored in both of her fights was 1 weak, pathetic kick with her front foot that barely scrapped under her opponent's arm. Otherwise she drilled both of her opponents several times and got nothing.

It seems the Lajust stuff is all about hitting in just the right spot with just the right part of the sock and had nothing to do with power or anything else.

After her fight on Saturday, we along with most everyone else, came out on Sunday with the plan of "screw the lajust stuff, go for the head and hope 2 out of 3 judges see it". Which Sam did, but unfortunatly judges still don't know how to push buttons, even IRs. Sam landed a very nice axe kick that went unscored and lost on Sunday 1-0 where I don't see anything close to a kick that should have scored being thrown by her opponent.

The other complaint about Lajust is that the protector did not cover the back. Kicks to the back are legal and it is a valid scoring area, however with no sensors there, you got no points for hitting there.

My bottom line is that if WTF is looking to lajust to solve "all the scoring problems in the Olympics" well you got a long way to go, because that stuff sucks.

 

[terryl965]

Yea lets see humans cannot get the scoring right and then technology screws us again, what is next having instant reply on every kick? I mean what was wrong back thirty years ago when you fought and they decided who won by who was superior for that match or better yet lets bring back all legal areas and just knock people out, that will make everyone happy. I believe we are just going down the wrong path here.

 

[Manny]

That's why I feel and think Olimpic TKD su....s!!! There is nothing like traditional TKD, I can recall the old days were the only equipment we woe doing kyorogui was shinn/step protectors and nothing else, and the judges or referee raised the hand of the competitor who scores more good and believable points.

I'm in TKD for the real thing not to play in some silly game where the aprecitiation of electronic stuff is so crucial.

Manny

 

[igillman]

The contact information on the LaJust website has a Korean phone number. Could me be seeing a "not invented here" syndrome?

 

[Sag1200]

I don't know how much time other posters spent at the Open, but I was there from opening ceremonies Thurs. morning until the last final Sunday night. The e-hogu went into use Friday morning and there were certainly some startup issues. I too wondered about back kicks until I saw some scored later Friday, then more as the weekend went on. The vest forces a player to focus and kick correctly. No scores for kicking with the toes or for tollyo chagi with the toes pointing up in the air, hitting with the side of the foot. For the back kicks, you have to use the heel, not the ball of the foot or the toes. I watched plenty of players doing these things, not scoring, then blaming the vest. The Canadian and Mexican teams had both used the vests last year and it showed. They weren't complaining, they were scoring. And as to the re-use of vests, I personally saw people wiping vests down with disinfectant between rounds, and I was told there was an ozone machine that kills 99.9% of germs in use for the foot gear. Yeah, it's sloppy to wear used gear, but who wanted to show up after paying to play, flying in, only to find out that you had to buy an e-hogu and foot gear??? Adidas and Truescore/Daedo both have good products, but only Lajust has eliminated false scores, only Lajust can run 9 or 90 rings at the same time, and only Lajust is not bothered by outside signals from cell phones or Bluetooths.

 

[mango.man]

I don't know how much time other posters spent at the Open, but I was there from opening ceremonies Thurs. morning until the last final Sunday night. The e-hogu went into use Friday morning and there were certainly some startup issues. I too wondered about back kicks until I saw some scored later Friday, then more as the weekend went on. The vest forces a player to focus and kick correctly. No scores for kicking with the toes or for tollyo chagi with the toes pointing up in the air, hitting with the side of the foot. For the back kicks, you have to use the heel, not the ball of the foot or the toes. I watched plenty of players doing these things, not scoring, then blaming the vest. The Canadian and Mexican teams had both used the vests last year and it showed. They weren't complaining, they were scoring. And as to the re-use of vests, I personally saw people wiping vests down with disinfectant between rounds, and I was told there was an ozone machine that kills 99.9% of germs in use for the foot gear. Yeah, it's sloppy to wear used gear, but who wanted to show up after paying to play, flying in, only to find out that you had to buy an e-hogu and foot gear??? Adidas and Truescore/Daedo both have good products, but only Lajust has eliminated false scores, only Lajust can run 9 or 90 rings at the same time, and only Lajust is not bothered by outside signals from cell phones or Bluetooths.

I was there from Thursday night until Sunday late afternoon.

The lajust gear does not score kicks to the back (a valid target under current WTF rules) and anywhere on the foot below the ankle is a valid weapon, so the entire foot should be covered by sensors and scores should be based more on power than hitting just the right spot with just the right part of the foot regardless of power.

I will add that those the have used the system before had a tremendous advantage and benefited from it. We certainly learned a lot throughout the weekend and hopefully the next time we will do better to adjust our game for the circumstances.

 

[terryl965]

I will just say this I believe they have a long way to go before they are truely effective for the fighters. I hope technology will keep coming but with better progress than they have shown over the last couple of years.

 

[Sag1200]

Mango.man, I heard the same complaint about kicks to the back. If the e-hogu is tied correctly, both "wings" come around to cover the kidneys and provide legal scoring coverage for the back. The boot has the reflective surface on all key scoring points. How would a competitor be able to get any traction with a fully enclosed foot? The point is based on the power applied to any part of the scoring surface on the hogu. If you watched closely, and you had to be quick, the power was displayed under whoever scored. If chung scored a point, it displayed the amount of power scored with, but only for a couple of seconds. I agree that players will have to adjust, but I believe it is an adjustment towards better technique and foot control. If the kick is delivered correctly and with the correct power, it will score. Have a good one!

 

[mango.man]

Mango.man, I heard the same complaint about kicks to the back. If the e-hogu is tied correctly, both "wings" come around to cover the kidneys and provide legal scoring coverage for the back.

This is not correct. The LaJust gear apparently has a "back panel" that can be used to cover valid scoring areas of the back, but it was decided not to use that part of the gear. As the gear was used at the US Open there was no passible way that it could be worn in a fashion so as to cover all legal scoring areas on the back, which is everything except the spine (an inch or 2 at the most down the center of the back).

The boot has the reflective surface on all key scoring points. How would a competitor be able to get any traction with a fully enclosed foot?

They can't and therefore a new design needs to be implemented or the rules regarding what part of the foot can be used to score need to be changed. The rules today say that foot techniques: Delivering techniques by using the parts of the foot below the ankle bone are valid.

And therefore the LaJust socks do not allow for proper application of the rules.

The point is based on the power applied to any part of the scoring surface on the hogu. If you watched closely, and you had to be quick, the power was displayed under whoever scored. If chung scored a point, it displayed the amount of power scored with, but only for a couple of seconds.

I actually did not notice that. Normally I record fights using 2 camera, one on the fight and one on the scoreboard and then put the 2 videos together in my final edit. Unfortunately 1 of my cameras took a dump on me and therefore I could not do that this time. I would certainly see this though if I had. So I will only comment on what I did see, other than scores on the scoreboard which was lights going up when judges pressed buttons for head shots (red) or punches (blue). Never in 3 days did I see any indicators of power on the scoreboard, including during the few tests I saw a few rings doing on occassion. Not to say that there was none, just I did not see it.

I agree that players will have to adjust, but I believe it is an adjustment towards better technique and foot control. If the kick is delivered correctly and with the correct power, it will score. Have a good one!

Players most certainly will have to adjust and start playing the game according to unpublished rules and disregarding the published rules as they are nonapplicable to the Lajust gear and therefore with the Lajust gear hundreds, more likely thousands, of kicks that were delivered correctly and with the correct power were not scored over those 3 days because the gear was not designed to be used under the rules as they are currently documented.

Have a nice day.

 

[mango.man]

I actually did not notice that. Normally I record fights using 2 camera, one on the fight and one on the scoreboard and then put the 2 videos together in my final edit. Unfortunately 1 of my cameras took a dump on me and therefore I could not do that this time. I would certainly see this though if I had. So I will only comment on what I did see, other than scores on the scoreboard which was lights going up when judges pressed buttons for head shots (red) or punches (blue). Never in 3 days did I see any indicators of power on the scoreboard, including during the few tests I saw a few rings doing on occassion. Not to say that there was none, just I did not see it.

OK, I just got done watching several videos on youtube where you can clearly see the scoreboard during the fights. There is absolutly no indication of power displayed on the scoreboard at any time.

Sorry Seg, it appears you are incorrect on that. If you have video to the contrary, I would love a link to it.

 

[Sag1200]

Mango,

I give you my word as a martial artist of 25 years, the power is displayed at every score. I don't know where you spent your time, I was in ring 9, which was tucked over in the corner on the left hand side of the venue. I was right there in front of the screen, and again, you had to look quick, but it was there, but was quick and small. If you watched closely at the finals both nights, the refs started each match by having each player test the other's hogu. The force was being displayed then also.

 

[mango.man]

I am not calling you a liar or anything, I just think you might be mistaken on what you saw. I was moving about between all 9 rings for the 3 days that the e-hogu was being used, depending on who was fighting where.

I am just saying that I did not see any indication of power on the scoreboard while I was watching live and I have watched dozens of videos on youtube and have yet to see any power indicator on the scoreboard in any of the videos either.

As requested, if you have a link to a video that I have not seen and that shows what you are talking about, I would be very interested in seeing it. Otherwise I stand by my statement that you are mistaken in what you saw.

Perhaps we will just have to agree to disagree on this and move on unless there is some video evidence out there that you can direct me to. For instance, take a look at

(choose the HQ option). @ 1:15 Blue scores and the entire scoreboard is in clear view. Can you at least tell me where on the scoreboard I should focus my attention to see the mysterious power indicator, because I ain't seein it? It is above the score, below the score, to the left or right of the score, by the name of the player or their countries flag... Where? @2:54 red scores with full view of the scoreboard as well and again no power indicator that I can see.

 

[terryl965]

mango.man I watched but did not see anything except the point, no power showing on that big screen also some others have told me that the power was not displayed during the matches.

 

[Sag1200]

Mango, this is my last post on this particular matter. I have told you several times what I have seen with my own eyes, displayed on the screen for all to see. You continue to say I am wrong, in effect, calling my veracity into question. Well, my friend, it is you who is wrong. I have a friend in a studio that has the Lajust equipment and he was kind enough to set it up and let me take a picture of the screen immediately after a score. The power level is there, as I have said, several times, right across the bottom of the score. I don't know how to post a picture here.

 

[mango.man]

Dude, I don't know what your problem is. I merely said that I saw no such thing as a power meter on any score board at the US Open, nor have I seen such a thing in any of the dozens of videos I have looked at from the event.

I am sorry that you are offended by me posting evidence of what I see and your inabilty to post eveidence of what you claim to have seen. But hey, we were in Vegas, where the mind altering substances flow freely.

I have demonstrated, and posted links to video evidence that you are wrong about what you claim to have seen at the US Open. You have posted nothing to back up your claims, yet you are saying I am the one who is wrong. Well if I am wrong, you need to do the following:

Find a video on You Tube or elsewhere on the net, from the 2009 US Open in Las Vegas NV. that shows any indication of the power of a kick on the LaJust hogu.

Or:

Find on any of the videos that I have posted a link to, the same thing.

But I am telling you, you're not going to find such a thing. Because no such video exists from the 09 US Open in Las Vegas.

If you find such a thing, I will be more than happy to apologize to you. But since you have decided to call me an outright liar, even though I have posted evidence to backup my standing, I will now return the favor, until you post video evidence to back up your claim.

I hereby call you a liar.

Now this is not to say that the LaJust stuff does not have the capabilty of displaying some sort of power indicator. I am just saying that IF it does, that feature was not in use at the 09 US Open in Las Vegas NV.

And no, I will not e-mail you so you can send me your potentially virus infected picture.

 

[exile]

Things are getting way, way too heated here, folks.

Reasonable people can disagree, even about matters of observation. There's no need to trade accusations of deliberate fabrication of what did or did not happen. If the best that can be worked out is an agreement to differ, so be it. But ramping up the level of heat to the point where it now stands will definitely bring negative attention to this thread, and there's nothing to be gained by that.

Let's not kill off a potentially very interesting discussion of these new technological developments, eh?

 

[terryl965]

I would like to know what is the criteria for how much pressure is needed to score a point. Does anybody know how that was determined?

 

[mango.man]

I would like to know what is the criteria for how much pressure is needed to score a point. Does anybody know how that was determined?

Based upon my personal observation, there was none. It was all about where you hit and with what part of the foot you hit and had absolutely nothing to do with how hard you hit.