TKD and Business are they compatible???

[miguksaram]

Why are so many Masters so reluctant to ask for help or even accept it if it is offered?

A couple of issues arise. First, they may not know who to ask. Another issue may be that they would feel obligated to that student. One of the worse issue is having just anyone do the work. Just because they offer, doesn't mean you should let them do it. They may not have a clue and that could lead to more hurt than help.

A main issue is the fact that you have to treat it as a business and when you have volunteers doing the work, it is hard to hold them accountable since it is "free" labor. They may be real excited the first week, but come the second week they may become bored and let the projects slide.

Lastly is ego. Some instructors feel that because they have a black belt in martial arts that also equates knowledge in martial art business. It does not. They feel they know what's best for the school when in fact they are their worst enemy. They just have to let go and let someone else, who knows what they are doing, take over that aspect.

 

[Gorilla]

.

A couple of issues arise. First, they may not know who to ask. Another issue may be that they would feel obligated to that student. One of the worse issue is having just anyone do the work. Just because they offer, doesn't mean you should let them do it. They may not have a clue and that could lead to more hurt than help.

A main issue is the fact that you have to treat it as a business and when you have volunteers doing the work, it is hard to hold them accountable since it is "free" labor. They may be real excited the first week, but come the second week they may become bored and let the projects slide.

Lastly is ego. Some instructors feel that because they have a black belt in martial arts that also equates knowledge in martial art business. It does not. They feel they know what's best for the school when in fact they are their worst enemy. They just have to let go and let someone else, who knows what they are doing, take over that aspect.

Very good post! Know yourself is the key to success. Know your strengths and weaknesses. Then find people you can trust who know what they are doing and are willing to help you

 

[celtic_crippler]

Can you run a good Martial Arts School with quality instruction and operate it as a successful business?

The most difficult thing about this question is how do you define a good "Martial Arts School" and what is the definition of a "successful business" as it relates to the Martial Arts.

I think that it is a fascinating question considering that most people get into the Martial Arts because they are fascinated by it and then grow to love it. Most are not business people. Very few are able to open schools that make $. Yet some are very successful from a monetary stand point.

Can the two(Art/Profit) coexist and still uphold the integrity of the art?

Based on my experience and what I've seen... and this applies to any type of "krotty"...

Money is made on kids.

So it is possible, but I think you'd have to have separate & distinct programs.

One for the kiddies that mommy and daddy approve of and one for the real martial artists.

Many moons ago I attended a school where I assisted the owner in teaching kids. We did the coordination games and so forth, made it real fun and safe so the parents wouldn't freak out. Then, once the kiddies left and the grown-ups showed up, we pulled the blinds, locked the door and really got down to bid-ness.

The curriculums were night and day. They had to be. One was to keep the doors open, the other for the "real thang". Know what I mean?

 

[xfighter88]

Why are so many Masters so reluctant to ask for help or even accept it if it is offered?

The less emplyees you have the lower your expenses and the better your profit margins. Employees don't jsut cost their hourly rate. There a ton of other taxes that the employer has to pay for them that they don't see coming out of their paycheck. If you have another full time job or a 500 student school employees could be worth while but if you are under 150 students or so flying solo with maybe one employee for office stuff is about all you can do to keep the dojo running without another job.

That's just what I have gleaned from talking with other owners around indiana.

 

[Balrog]

I say yes.

I believe the key is knowing some basic business principles. There are two "Magic Numbers" you absolutely need to know:

1. The number of students that you need to have so that income from all sources - dues, testings, sales, etc. - covers your monthly operational nut and allows you to keep the doors open. At this point, your school is technically in the black.

2. The number of students that you need to have so that income from monthly dues only covers the nut. This is your target. At this point, your school is profitable.

Now we come to the collision of business and martial arts. Let's use a school that has a $4000 a month nut for rent, phone, utilities, etc., and let's say this school charges $100 a month for training. In addition, there are testing fees of $60 every other month, sparring equipment sales of $200 after six months of training and weapon sales of $25 a month (I'm making these numbers up as I go). Mix in a few incidental sales like new uniforms, etc., and let's say that we wind up forecasting that we will bring in $150 a month per student. Our first magic number is therefore 4000/150 or 27 students to break even.

Our goal is to get to the point where the dues alone cover the nut, so when we hit 40 students, we're there. The remainder of the income can now go for debt reduction, building savings for future capital expenses, etc. Any additional students over the count of 40 is gravy, so to speak, and we get to liking the gravy a little too much, so I start adding students. I get up to, let's say, 60 and I'm running a little ragged, so I hire an extra instructor. And so it goes. Pretty soon, I've got 300 students, 10 instructors....and I'm not making any more money, and I do not know my students by name any more.

I personally would stop at 60 if I were a solo operation. If I start out with someone to share the teaching load, I'd go as high as 100. But that's it. Now my school is earning a comfortable profit, I'm happy doing what I want, and - here's the biggie - I can still provide quality m. a. training to my students, instead of just flipping them like patties at Mickey D's.

Whew - that was long. A little more than $0.02 worth, methinks.

 

[rabbit]

In response to the original question. Without looking at the responses. To give quality instruction you have to market to one group of people. It hard to manage the very young, the not so young, and the people that are not young. They all have different wants and needs. So you might end up give the next potential Olympic gold medalist a very shallow and basic instuction. You might even be giving quality instuction to people who don't care. Taking time and attention from those that want and deseve it.

So my advice is to select your students don't let them select you. Do not leave the doors open to everyone. Who know with what type of crowd you will bring.

 

[Skippy]

Well I used to be invloved with Taekwondo for many years until it moved in the direction of being more or less a sport but I think you would have to ask yourself what kind of goals are you hoping to obtain? Most Taekwondo schools are looked at as business first & martial arts, well maybe! When I look back at the master I trained under & then taught for until I wiped the sleep from my eyes I can see now he was only really interested in the business side of things & he did a ton of business & made tons of money. This was all between 1992 until 1995 or so when Taekwondo was more or less pretty popular on the West Coast. This guy had between two to three hundred students all locked in on contact at around $120,00 per month! Do the numbers thats some heavy cash coming in. This does not count tournaments he ran & all the crap he sold out of his school. I'm talking big money here. He was laughing all the way to the bank. Problem is in his quest to bleed every red cent out of his students he forgot about quality instruction & started to give out rank to students that did business favors for him. That was the kiss of death. Fast forward ...2009! He had to move to a smaller location as he could no longer afford the location he had due to a large, very large drop off rate from his student base ...(Hmm, I wonder why!) So now, well he has not moved forward but taken steps back, way back. I myself have learned from watching what he did & understand that of course you can have a good business from a career in martial arts but to continue to have a good business you still have to offer quality instruction to your students.

 

[chungdokwan123]

Most Taekwondo schools are looked at as business first & martial arts, well maybe!

I was wondering........is this really a fair characterization?

MOST TKD schools?

Is it really THAT bad out there? I'm not necessarily indicting your comment. I truly wish to know what the consensus of opinion is relative to your statement.

How do others view such a sweeping generalization?

 

[FLTKD]

I was wondering........is this really a fair characterization?

MOST TKD schools?

Is it really THAT bad out there? I'm not necessarily indicting your comment. I truly wish to know what the consensus of opinion is relative to your statement.

How do others view such a sweeping generalization?

I think that becuase TKD is so popular and most dojangs have a lot of students, other MA's school use it as a put down or a Mcdojang if your school does well. And to go along with it, TKD being a hard style has less techniques ( JJ over 100 different locks, etc.) per gup level. It gives the appearance that rank is much easyer to get. Which in turn feeds the the Mcdojang or bussiness statments. Not to be disrepectful of other styles, they are just different systems, and concepts.

 

[Tez3]

I think that becuase TKD is so popular and most dojangs have a lot of students, other MA's school use it as a put down or a Mcdojang if your school does well. And to go along with it, TKD being a hard style has less techniques ( JJ over 100 different locks, etc.) per gup level. It gives the appearance that rank is much easyer to get. Which in turn feeds the the Mcdojang or bussiness statments. Not to be disrepectful of other styles, they are just different systems, and concepts.

I think you're right. Looking at another thread which asked how often people graded in TKD and it seems every couple of months or even every month is the norm plus you can grade only weeks after joining as a white belt. The karate plus a couple of other styles I have done don't let you grade for your first belt for anytime between 6-12 months, then you have to spend usually at least 6 months at a grade before trying for your next. Double grading is extremely rare. BJJ I know you can spend years at one grade. The many gradings, tests etc do seem to be another money spinning thing. It has the appearance of belt chasing too which doesn't do TKD any favours.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think that becuase TKD is so popular and most dojangs have a lot of students, other MA's school use it as a put down or a Mcdojang if your school does well. And to go along with it, TKD being a hard style has less techniques ( JJ over 100 different locks, etc.) per gup level. It gives the appearance that rank is much easyer to get. Which in turn feeds the the Mcdojang or bussiness statments. Not to be disrepectful of other styles, they are just different systems, and concepts.

QFT!

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well I used to be invloved with Taekwondo for many years until it moved in the direction of being more or less a sport but I think you would have to ask yourself what kind of goals are you hoping to obtain? Most Taekwondo schools are looked at as business first & martial arts, well maybe! When I look back at the master I trained under & then taught for until I wiped the sleep from my eyes I can see now he was only really interested in the business side of things & he did a ton of business & made tons of money. This was all between 1992 until 1995 or so when Taekwondo was more or less pretty popular on the West Coast. This guy had between two to three hundred students all locked in on contact at around $120,00 per month! Do the numbers thats some heavy cash coming in. This does not count tournaments he ran & all the crap he sold out of his school. I'm talking big money here. He was laughing all the way to the bank. Problem is in his quest to bleed every red cent out of his students he forgot about quality instruction & started to give out rank to students that did business favors for him. That was the kiss of death.

Schools like this are not unique to taekwondo, nor are they the norm. I think that your generalization is not an accurate one, and seems more like a projection of your own personal experience.

Fast forward ...2009! He had to move to a smaller location as he could no longer afford the location he had due to a large, very large drop off rate from his student base ...(Hmm, I wonder why!) So now, well he has not moved forward but taken steps back, way back.

A lot of businesses have had trouble in recent years. Unless his move and slide in business happened over three or four years ago, it is very likely that his business was hit by the same economic difficulties that are affecting the rest of the country. Things like martial arts lessons and music lessons are often the first to the family budget chopping block when times are tough.

I myself have learned from watching what he did & understand that of course you can have a good business from a career in martial arts but to continue to have a good business you still have to offer quality instruction to your students.

This I agree with.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

Well TKD has been beat down sooo much that it can never get back up.... I mean look at Karate it is in the same boat and Judo too.....

 

[dancingalone]

With my curriculum, it is impossible for me to attract and retain sufficient numbers of students to make a living from it, all while maintaining my required level of rigor.

My classes are two hours long, so I can teach 1 class in the evening, perhaps 2 at most. To make money in this industry, the standard seems to be 3-4 classes an evening at 45 minutes each.

I do not accept more students I can individually teach, observe, and correct myself. This is an obvious problem if I wished to run my school for profit. I make a good living from my career. To make the same income from martial arts, I would need to have a hundred students or more, paying $120 a month or more.

I do not wish to charge extra tuition for belt exams, nor do I want to hawk uniforms and equipment. All of those are potential extra sources of income.

So, I don't. My career puts food on the table and I even derive some satisfaction from it. My passion, which is martial arts, actually costs me money, as I put more into my students and my school that I will ever receive back in monetary compensation. Luckily, I am paid in other coin.

 

[Tez3]

It's perfectly possible to run a martial arts business offering good training without compromising yourself. It needs someone though who is dedicated and has a good head for business not just a get rich quick mentality. Someone prepared to build up the business to retain long term customers who will recommended the place to others. You need a proper business plan, there's no reason why you can't sell martial arts equipment etc but do your sums first. It's better if you want it to support you to look to long term growth so don't charge too much, charge competitively rather than grab the membership fees etc as soon as they come in the door. Treat it as a business. Offer a good quality product and give people their moneys worth.
Look at the business the way you do martial arts, solid basics will mean a good foundation to carry you though. I don't believe just because you run a martial arts business it makes you a bad martial artist, it could make you a bad business person unless you prepare properly though.

 

[Skippy]

Schools like this are not unique to taekwondo, nor are they the norm. I think that your generalization is not an accurate one, and seems more like a projection of your own personal experience.


A lot of businesses have had trouble in recent years. Unless his move and slide in business happened over three or four years ago, it is very likely that his business was hit by the same economic difficulties that are affecting the rest of the country. Things like martial arts lessons and music lessons are often the first to the family budget chopping block when times are tough.


This I agree with.

Daniel

Hello fellow Celtic person,



Actually students had started to drop out when I decided I no longer was going to teach for him at that location. That was around 1998. With his business it was a slow death actually. He was, and chances are still involved with the USTU which is involved with the WTF & he pretty much ran all the tournaments in the Southern California region. How I know it was a drop off of students is due to he giving rank to students who did business favors for him is because I would hear it nearly everyday from students & their families. He also took less and less interest in teaching ...(Counting all that money must take up alot of one's time!) Anyways He was only one of many so called Taekwondo Masters' in his circle who were all doing the same thing & they have all ended up in the same boat which is most unfortunate. However I do agree with most of you the economy in recent times has played a part as well as it's been tough on us all. However I do know of other schools' & other teachers' & some of these people teach other styles who have healthy student retention because they focus on giving quality instruction. My point is people are not stupid. People know when you are sincere & honest & people will sooner or later figure you out if your only in it for the money. As for me well some of the black belts I knew from that school are all high ranking so called masters' now through this guy & most of them couldn't kick their way out of a wet paper sack if their lives depended on it. I'm just glad I left there when I did.

 

[FLTKD]

I run a school with a Active count over 120 and has been for years. I 'm also the only instructor. I teach every class . I sell uniforms ( with my logo) and sparring gear. My class for children are 45min. And my adult class is 1 hour. I offer 29 class per week, that agian I teach. I am a certified Kukkiwon instructor (2009) and I am nationally ranked in poomsae. I don't have to sell rank because my business model didn't include fee's from testing. I do charge for it, but I do not include it into my monthly budget. With that said, I only teach Kukki TKD. No cardio kick boxing, BJJ, MMA, little dragons or programs along that line. I have seen a drop in enrollement over that last year, but what business hasn't. The thing that I feel makes me different from some , but like many, I love TKD! I have never stopped learning! When you have a passion for some thing and do and teach it well, the money finds you! It when you go looking for it when it becomes a problem. Just my thoughts......

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think it is certainly possible to run a good reputable tkd school offering good tuition from experienced instructors and still make a good business out of it without charging a fortune for the service. Many instructors at my club teach full time , which is still only about 10 - 15 hours work a week (which is very little compared to most occupations) . They would generally have about 150 students accross four locations (about 40 per class) and would charge about $40 a month. If you have 150 students paying $40 a month you bring in $6000 a month while still being able to charge a competitive price and offer high quality instruction.

 

[xfighter88]

You can absolutely run a solid dojo and make money without selling out and having a huge 500+ student base. Go search for small dojo big profit. It seems to be a really solid plan for being a success in the martial arts industry without becoming McDojoish.

 

[chungdokwan123]

Something's definitely wrong here.

Originally Posted by chungdokwan123

I think that becuase TKD is so popular and most dojangs have a lot of students, other MA's school use it as a put down or a Mcdojang if your school does well. And to go along with it, TKD being a hard style has less techniques ( JJ over 100 different locks, etc.) per gup level. It gives the appearance that rank is much easyer to get. Which in turn feeds the the Mcdojang or bussiness statments. Not to be disrepectful of other styles, they are just different systems, and concepts.

I didn't post that.......FLTKD did.

Originally Posted by Skippy
I was wondering........is this really a fair characterization?

MOST TKD schools?

Is it really THAT bad out there? I'm not necessarily indicting your comment. I truly wish to know what the consensus of opinion is relative to your statement.

How do others view such a sweeping generalization?

........and Skippy didn't post that..........I did.

I actually starting thinking that perhaps the kick to the head from the other night was having some long-lasting effects!