Thundering Hammers

[Touch Of Death]

I like to get in there and take on his lead leg, ckeck through his arm and block through his neck, catch his jaw with an upward elbow only to pop him back down with a recoiling hammer fist to the jaw as I settle into a neutral, I immediately launch into a forward bow which should catch him in the floating ribs on an upward trajectory at bow completion; however, you should let your back knee crash through his lead leg, At this point you can hook back with any number of strike possibilities...
Sean
PS You cut me deep just then Doc, you cut me real deep.

 

[Doc]

Hey Doc,
for myself the "step up defence" as you refer to them had to be qualified by seeing them as a "slip" otherwise the whole thing became too mechanical, this the first time i have heard you mention "category completion" and with respect I would like some opinion on its real relevance.
W.R.
Rich

Let's digress for a moment on "CC," (Category Completion). On the face of it when creating a commercial curriculum, and wanting to extend information for various reasons, it makes sense. Even from the perspective of wanting to address all reasonable possibilities (as it was actually proposed by Ed Parker in the Web of Knowledge) is in fact a good idea.

However to begin with a technique, and then formulate an idea to complete a category is not what Ed Parker had in mind. To abandon logic to 'flesh out' material is a bad idea. The Web of Knowledge was central to the creation of much of the commercial currulum and is the central concept that should be followed and then worked through to a logical conclusion for each category.

To create "Flashing Mace, Sleeper, Thundering Hammers, and Dance of Death" is not bad, but the approach must be driven by knowledge and logic in their execution. Additionally, some categories are just unrealistic in the order of likely occurrences on the street. Some of the techniques were actually created to satisfy 'sport wrestling' assaults as an example. Oddly enough, these and other techniques that fall outside of logical conclusions are the ones that most have the biggest problems with in the commercial curriculum.

Those of you who have done this material know those techniques you would never try to do on the street as they were taught. You don't believe they work because they don't.

 

[Doc]

I like to get in there and take on his lead leg, ckeck through his arm and block through his neck, catch his jaw with an upward elbow only to pop him back down with a recoiling hammer fist to the jaw as I settle into a neutral, I immediately launch into a forward bow which should catch him in the floating ribs on an upward trajectory at bow completion; however, you should let your back knee crash through his lead leg, At this point you can hook back with any number of strike possibilities...
Sean
PS You cut me deep just then Doc, you cut me real deep.

My apologies sir, but then I'm not through with you yet. Let's get to the initial move before I tear into, I mean discuss the rest.

 

[HKphooey]

Before you disspell my suggestion, please try it on someone. I think the the first part of the technique is a wasted move (but only my opinion and what I do based on my experiences). I believe in the "blitz" strike. If I got to the outside of the opponents arm with the suggested step, I would not even go into thundering hammers. I have a great arm bar ready to go, and I take the opponent straight to the ground. Perfect set up for a "cuffing" postion.

Doc, I would love to work out with ya some day! I really like these discussions. Gives me a lot to think about and try out.

 

[Doc]

Before you disspell my suggestion, please try it on someone. I think the the first part of the technique is a wasted move (but only my opinion and what I do based on my experiences). I believe in the "blitz" strike. If I got to the outside of the opponents arm with the suggested step, I would not even go into thundering hammers. I have a great arm bar ready to go, and I take the opponent straight to the ground. Perfect set up for a "cuffing" postion.

Doc, I would love to work out with ya some day! I really like these discussions. Gives me a lot to think about and try out.

Same here sir.

 

[HKphooey]

Doc and all,

What are your feelings on the opponent's left hand that is left wide open? That is the part of the technique I do not like. The arm is right there for the oppent to grab. I unsterstand the faster I am, the less chance of that happening.

Thanks.

 

[Doc]

Doc and all,

What are your feelings on the opponent's left hand that is left wide open? That is the part of the technique I do not like. The arm is right there for the oppent to grab. I unsterstand the faster I am, the less chance of that happening.

Thanks.

1: Call him what he is; an ATTACKER not an 'opponent.' Trust me on this. Your body does make a disitinction based on your understanding of the definition of the word.

2: The nature of the attack, and its counter when properly executed, compensate for the apparent unaccounted for left hand. This is true of all the techniques in this "category" sir.

 

[HKphooey]

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[HKphooey]

Played around with the technique a bit last night. My wife needs to learn how to run when she hears me call out " Hon, can I borrow you for a second!).

To many wide open issues with this technique. The forearm to the midsection brings the attacker right to you checked right leg/knee. Attacker grabs that leg and a nice tug turns into a grappling fight.

Maybe these CC techniques were design to make us think and question why we do things. Based on historical facts, GM EP liked to use reverse psychology. Maybe he wanted us to find the wholes and the “what if’s”.

Alright on to the next technique! Have a great weekend! TGIF!

 

[kenpoworks]

Let's digress for a moment on "CC," (Category Completion). On the face of it when creating a commercial curriculum, and wanting to extend information for various reasons, it makes sense. Even from the perspective of wanting to address all reasonable possibilities (as it was actually proposed by Ed Parker in the Web of Knowledge) is in fact a good idea.

However to begin with a technique, and then formulate an idea to complete a category is not what Ed Parker had in mind. To abandon logic to 'flesh out' material is a bad idea. The Web of Knowledge was central to the creation of much of the commercial currulum and is the central concept that should be followed and then worked through to a logical conclusion for each category.

To create "Flashing Mace, Sleeper, Thundering Hammers, and Dance of Death" is not bad, but the approach must be driven by knowledge and logic in their execution. Additionally, some categories are just unrealistic in the order of likely occurrences on the street. Some of the techniques were actually created to satisfy 'sport wrestling' assaults as an example. Oddly enough, these and other techniques that fall outside of logical conclusions are the ones that most have the biggest problems with in the commercial curriculum.

Those of you who have done this material know those techniques you would never try to do on the street as they were taught. You don't believe they work because they don't.

Thanks Doc,
I am going to go away and think about it for awhile, because I think I kinda agree with what you are saying.
I may be gone for sometime one think a day is all I am allowed at the moment.
Richard

 

[jazkiljok]

Let's digress for a moment on "CC," (Category Completion). On the face of it when creating a commercial curriculum, and wanting to extend information for various reasons, it makes sense. Even from the perspective of wanting to address all reasonable possibilities (as it was actually proposed by Ed Parker in the Web of Knowledge) is in fact a good idea.

However to begin with a technique, and then formulate an idea to complete a category is not what Ed Parker had in mind. To abandon logic to 'flesh out' material is a bad idea. The Web of Knowledge was central to the creation of much of the commercial currulum and is the central concept that should be followed and then worked through to a logical conclusion for each category.

To create "Flashing Mace, Sleeper, Thundering Hammers, and Dance of Death" is not bad, but the approach must be driven by knowledge and logic in their execution. Additionally, some categories are just unrealistic in the order of likely occurrences on the street. Some of the techniques were actually created to satisfy 'sport wrestling' assaults as an example. Oddly enough, these and other techniques that fall outside of logical conclusions are the ones that most have the biggest problems with in the commercial curriculum.

Those of you who have done this material know those techniques you would never try to do on the street as they were taught. You don't believe they work because they don't.

did this category completion also apply to the gun and knife disarms?

 

[Doc]

did this category completion also apply to the gun and knife disarms?

Unfortunately, yes.

 

[Blindside]

This is a 'category completion' technique full of inconsistencies. Your 'unhappiness' with this 'step up' defense is duly noted and I concur. Depending upon the curriculum, it shares a relationsip with 'Dance of Death,' and 'Flashing Mace,' completing the low, midle, high scenarios some thought should be addressed. All of them also have the 'dead' or 'passive hand' on the initial block. So how do we deal with it?

Hi Doc,

I thought category completion was a function of what you call motion kenpo. But Thundering Hammers (and the rest of its cateogry; Sleeper, Dance of Death) exist also within the Tracy system, giving an earlier provenance to this technique.

Maybe I misunderstand your terminology on some of this, but I thought you said that you had previously said that the Tracy's don't do motion kenpo.

Lamont

 

[jazkiljok]

Unfortunately, yes.

would explain a few things.

 

[Doc]

Hi Doc,

I thought category completion was a function of what you call motion kenpo. But Thundering Hammers (and the rest of its cateogry; Sleeper, Dance of Death) exist also within the Tracy system, giving an earlier provenance to this technique.

Maybe I misunderstand your terminology on some of this, but I thought you said that you had previously said that the Tracy's don't do motion kenpo.

Lamont

You're correct sir, it is associated with 'motion' based Kenpo, but it is also part of the misconception of the evolution of "Kenpo" in the Parker Lineage. The generally held view is that Parker came to the mainland and brought the "Kenpo-Karate" he learned from Chow, and over the years it "evolved" into this motion based vehicle everyone is familiar with.

It consists of a finite number of techniques presented in 32, 24, or 16 chart increments (depending on era), a specific number of progressively numerical forms and sets, a Web of Knowledge, and specific conceptual terms that define the system.

This is very much incorrect. While it is true Parker brought “Kenpo-Karate” to the mainland, he completely abandoned the "karate" concept in favor of a Chinese Perspective early on. Many of those that studied the early art never embraced the wholesale changes and remain in that era, and evolved themselves to a place where they felt comfortable, and are still there today.

This is when Parker began his quest to create his own "American Kenpo," utilizing the Chinese Kenpo (Kung Fu) he was learning from Ark Wong and Haumea Lefiti as a base. (Also to a lesser extent people like Lau Bun and Jimmy Woo.

Taking from Splashing Hands, Hung Gar, Five Animal, Sil Lum, and other influences, Parker was determined to take the best of the Chinese knowledge, and adjust the methodology to an American Perspective.

This was supposed to allow a student to achieve all the benefits of the traditional way of training. However, by removing the cultural baggage that intentionally elongated the process to higher skill and knowledge, a student could get there much faster. Parker reasoned this would be the best of both worlds and would be an awesome style.

He was right, but his quest was going to be a lengthy process and most were unwilling to participate, instead focusing on rank and business prospects in the wide open market of the fifties and sixties.

Originally beginning from the Japanese and Okinawan heavy perspective of his original "Kenpo-Karate," he formed a Yudanshakai with many of his early students, (like the Tracy's) and adopted many of the Japanese traditions and rituals.

Early certificates prominently displayed the word "Karate" and cited the Yudanshakai as the promotion authority, as they awarded "Dan" ranks along with the "Kyu" ranking structure of the Japanese borrowed from Judo. This also accounts for the three levels of brown belts that count down instead of up to a "Dan" degree.

Parker began this process of conversion to the Chinese and ultimately American Kenpo while all these things were in place, including many of the techniques he began creating that have names most will recognize today. Starting with a '32' chart that only went to three black stripes (green belt) and no yellow belt yet created.

Parker ultimately abandoned the original Yudanshakai and began to move toward his true goal. He dropped all non-English language in the system, changed the wording on certificates and and began awarding black belt 'degrees' in the "Americanization" process. The Tracy's (and others) took control of the original Yudanshakai and continued in this 'hybrid' tradition. Part Chinese but heavily influenced by Japanese/Okinawan traditions.

While Parker continued to evolve his “American Kenpo,” personal issues caused him to seek a more 'business friendly' method of teaching to support his American Kenpo project. This was to be 'motion based' Kenpo which was not an extension of his "American Kenpo," but a diversion business enterprise.

Most of the original students still with him at this time didn't like this 'motion-Kenpo' and most refused to learn it. A few learned some of it, but even 'motion-kenpo' changed a lot as he refined the business and continued to add material students requested. Once students had attained rank, they usually were unwilling to revisit previously learned material to refine or change it.

Putting the name "karate" back on the business model, Parker began his proliferation process with his “Kenpo-Karate” conceptual vehicle. Based on abstract motion, it required less of his energy as a teacher. Then promoting, the concept of 'tailoring,' and later 'rearrangement concepts,' would provide voluminous material for anyone willing to study it ad nausea, and never run out of material.

It had no set basics, instead relying on the basics of its original teachers, most of whom were already brown and blacks belts. Many of them were original Tracy Students returning to the source. Many others came from diverse styles and other cultures.

Ultimately the business of 'motion-kenpo' grew and consumed Parker to the extent he did not have the time to write his American Kenpo, as he wanted, but he continued to evolve it as well.

Therefore, all of these things continued to evolve independently of each other and there was a natural crossover sometimes between eras and philosophies.

The Tracy's did not teach a "motion based" concept. This emerged after they left. The Tracy's decided on a more technique intensive perspective, and focused on variations on a particular theme creating many more techniques. Whereas Parker allowed "tailoring" and "rearrangement" to do the same thing, without having to create "new" techniques for his business of Kenpo.

Al Tracy broke new ground in the business of the martial arts and created the first franchises, based partly on what he learned from Parker of the art at the time, and other information he sought from others later. Al was smart enough to know what he didn't know, and went out and paid other masters to teach and add what he felt his system needed to be more effective. He even paid his fighting team and put them on salary, headed up by Joe Lewis, (Who was studying with Bruce Lee) and Jerry Smith who was Joe Lewis' protégé.

This accounts for the confusion. Kenpo-Karate, Chinese Kenpo, American Kenpo, Ed Parker’s American kenpo, and Ed parker’s Kenpo Karate are all names he used at various times. Each has its own very much separate methodology and philosophy with slight natural crossovers between the styles and eras.

Although many use the term, “American Kenpo” is the most nebulous because Parker never finished it, and generally didn’t teach it. He did however use it to sell his other business enterprise arts. There is no such thing as “motion” based American kenpo, only kenpo-Karate.

No wonder everyone is confused. My head spins writing about it and I was there. And with the many 'new' kenpo styles poping up, it doesn't look to ever get any better.

 

[MJS]

Doc, If stepping up, such as in Thundering Hammers is going to put us in an awkward position for the initial block, what would you suggest? I mean, until the attack begins to unfold, I'd think it would be then that we'd decide what the proper response would be no? If we did choose to step forward on an angle, can't we adjust our initial move accordingly?

Mike

 

[Doc]

Doc, If stepping up, such as in Thundering Hammers is going to put us in an awkward position for the initial block, what would you suggest? I mean, until the attack begins to unfold, I'd think it would be then that we'd decide what the proper response would be no? If we did choose to step forward on an angle, can't we adjust our initial move accordingly?

Mike

Thank you for asking the question. These techniques use a combination of footwork. First you step backward slightly with your right foot to assess the attack. Then you push drag/step forward as Rich said, and "slip' with an inward block to just below the elbow. (that's right - below).

That's a good start.

 

[MJS]

Thank you for asking the question. These techniques use a combination of footwork. First you step backward slightly with your right foot to assess the attack. Then you push drag/step forward as Rich said, and "slip' with an inward block to just below the elbow. (that's right - below).

That's a good start.

That is a good point. Now that I think about it, by doing this move, many other techniques would make more sense.

 

[Doc]

That is a good point. Now that I think about it, by doing this move, many other techniques would make more sense.

Keep in mind sir, There are only absolutes in footwork to accomplish a goal. When more than one kind of footwork or combination thereof is effective, it is acceptable to utilze it. In a 'manual" it may say, "Step back to six o'clock." That is an 'idea' that describes 'direction' more than it does 'footwork.' You may not step back at all, or you may step back slightly, or you may be forced to push drag to create the distance you need to be effective. As long as your feet and stance are orientated to be effective, and it doesn't violate any anatomical constraints necessary to be effective as well in your desired response, it is 'ok.'

"Footwork is the ultimate variable." - Ron Chapél

 

[kenpoworks]

Keep in mind sir, There are only absolutes in footwork to accomplish a goal. When more than one kind of footwork or combination thereof is effective, it is acceptable to utilze it. In a 'manual" it may say, "Step back to six o'clock." That is an 'idea' that describes 'direction' more than it does 'footwork.' You may not step back at all, or you may step back slightly, or you may be forced to push drag to create the distance you need to be effective. As long as your feet and stance are orientated to be effective, and it doesn't violate any anatomical constraints necessary to be effective as well in your desired response, it is 'ok.'

"Footwork is the ultimate variable." - Ron Chapél

AH- HA!, Doc I love it when Seniors give answers (as opposed to allusions) such as this, the above (entire) statement is (should be) universally applicable to the exploration of these things we call Self Defence Techniques.
I hope you don't mind if I use this as a benchmark statement when explaining my take on this area of "Motion Kenpo".

Rich.:asian: