Sword Of Destruction

[KenpoDragon]

I don't understand sir,was it a question for other Kenpoists on their answer for Sword of Destruction? Or were you simply giving your answer for the question? Well I don't understand why you would move forward into the cat stance,the range of the front snap kick is perfect from the original position.I also don't understand why you would have your left hand check at your right shoulder,is that a secondary check??? Doesn't that negate the Universal block pattern,one high one low??? By shifting forward wouldn't you then open yourself up for a possible head-butt,especially when you connect with the groin shot? With your left hand checking at your right shoulder doesn't that expose your groin??? I understand that different Kenpoists have different answers for the same questions I would just like to hear yours.This was not the way I learned Sword of Destruction,but if it works for you,that's fine with me.

With honor and respect,:asian:
KenpoDragon

 

[ob2c]

Mr Dragon, I'm not sure if you are asking me, but I'll try to answer.

Originally posted by KenpoDragon
Well I don't understand why you would move forward into the cat stance,the range of the front snap kick is perfect from the original position.

I read that as a typo. You would move back into a Cat. Otherwise, you'd have to weight the front foot, shift the rear up weight the rear foot, then kick. Not very efficient. No one else commented on it, so I figured everyone else read it the same.

This may change or even answer some of your other questions, but I'll answer them any how.

I also don't understand why you would have your left hand check at your right shoulder,is that a secondary check??? Doesn't that negate the Universal block pattern,one high one low???

The check is above the shoulder, protecting the face. A roundhouse can be converted to a hook and still get by the block. Or, as was pointed out, you could misread the attack and throw this up for a straight punch. In this case, the check, which gets up first, would be a minor block. If there is no contact, the left hand drops immediately to check at the lower sternum, or to recieve a second incoming strike. One high, one low, as you said. It doesn't immediately go to the mid check because your step back and the dynamics of his attack momentarily nullify the second (right) hand.

By shifting forward wouldn't you then open yourself up for a possible head-butt,especially when you connect with the groin shot?

Your relative position as you plant forward into the neutral bow, the hand sword to the side of his neck, and the checking hand take care of this contingency. He starts to react as you start to plant, just don't walk straight into his path.

With your left hand checking at your right shoulder doesn't that expose your groin???

Your block momentarily checks his width. He'll probably have to recover that before kicking, so your kick should get off first. Even if he kicks first, your cat can easily and quickly be converted from a kick to a leg check. And you should be flowing into that cat as soon as the block lands.

That's how I was taught this technique. Were you taught different? If so, how?

Respectfully, :asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by ob2c
Mr Dragon, I'm not sure if you are asking me, but I'll try to answer. I read that as a typo. You would move back into a Cat. Otherwise, you'd have to weight the front foot, shift the rear up weight the rear foot, then kick. Not very efficient. No one else commented on it, so I figured everyone else read it the same.

Sorry, but you ALWAYS move forward into a cat whenever possible. Moving BACK into a cat is inefficient and violates body mechanics and alignment.

 

[ob2c]

Doc, please enlighten me then. When I cat as the first move in a front kick off the lead leg, I shift weight to the rear leg (a slight backward movement), flow through the cat and snap the kick. Why would you move forward? And how would that be more efficient? I'm also having a little trouble seeing how it violates body mechanics and allignment. Seriously interested here. If I'm doing something wrong in this simple foot maneuver, I'll get it corrected. But I can't see moving forward into the cat for the front snap kick. What am I missing?

 

[KenpoDragon]

Originally posted by ob2c
Mr Dragon, I'm not sure if you are asking me, but I'll try to answer.
I appreciate your response,but I guess I should have been more clear in my reply,it was intended for the original poster.I was simply asking what his base was for these movements.



I read that as a typo. You would move back into a Cat. Otherwise, you'd have to weight the front foot, shift the rear up weight the rear foot, then kick. Not very efficient. No one else commented on it, so I figured everyone else read it the same.

This may change or even answer some of your other questions, but I'll answer them any how.



The check is above the shoulder, protecting the face. A roundhouse can be converted to a hook and still get by the block. Or, as was pointed out, you could misread the attack and throw this up for a straight punch. In this case, the check, which gets up first, would be a minor block. If there is no contact, the left hand drops immediately to check at the lower sternum, or to recieve a second incoming strike. One high, one low, as you said. It doesn't immediately go to the mid check because your step back and the dynamics of his attack momentarily nullify the second (right) hand.
I learned the left inward parry as well,but as a momentary precaution.Not necessarily the primary block,just as insurance.It sounded as if in the original post,he left the left hand check up towards the shoulder,hence my question why.



Your relative position as you plant forward into the neutral bow, the hand sword to the side of his neck, and the checking hand take care of this contingency. He starts to react as you start to plant, just don't walk straight into his path.



Your block momentarily checks his width. He'll probably have to recover that before kicking, so your kick should get off first. Even if he kicks first, your cat can easily and quickly be converted from a kick to a leg check. And you should be flowing into that cat as soon as the block lands.

That's how I was taught this technique. Were you taught different? If so, how? I was taught the same way sir,my question was as to why someone would do it differently.

Respectfully, :asian:

As I said thank you for your response,but I was truly looking for the original posters response as to why he would modify something as basic as Sword of Destruction.:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by ob2c
Doc, please enlighten me then. When I cat as the first move in a front kick off the lead leg, I shift weight to the rear leg (a slight backward movement), flow through the cat and snap the kick. Why would you move forward? And how would that be more efficient? I'm also having a little trouble seeing how it violates body mechanics and allignment. Seriously interested here. If I'm doing something wrong in this simple foot maneuver, I'll get it corrected. But I can't see moving forward into the cat for the front snap kick. What am I missing?

Whenever you step backwards into ANY stance you misalign your hips, and created a Disassociated consition between your upper and lower body, and destroy anatomical stability. With a stance where the weight distribution is to the rear, the effect is even more acute and critical.

Experiment:

Begin with feet even in depth, then step back into a neutral bow. then have someone apply steady pressure on your upper body toward 6 o'clock. Ultimately your upper body will yield to the pressure and lean rearward. When it has been pushed far enough it will pull your front foot off the floor and you will be forced to move to retain your balance. If you were under assault from someone who supplied constant forward pressure through punching or grappling, you would not be able to recover from this "diassociated" condition.

Next do the opposite. Step Forward into a neutral bow and recreate the same pressure toward 6 o'clock. If your stance is close to correct, you should be able to resist the pressure and your stance should be stable and your upper body will not yield anymore than your lower. They will work as a unit.

Anytime you step back into ANY stance you must apply a corrective anatomical mechanism to adjust the anatomical alignment of your body. That mechanism is only taught in SubLevel Four Kenpo. My students learn it from the beginning and have no problems with it. Unfortunately it is a physical mechanism that cannot be conveyed in its proper perspective with words only.

 

[ob2c]

Well Doc, it's 3:00AM, so I don't have anyone to push me. But I've been experimentin', and I think I can see at least part of what you are getting at. You are focusing on more the internal aspect in the allignment of the joints in the hip. When I step back into a neutral bow I can feel a slight floating sensation on the ball joints at the hips. Steping forward these joints seem to be more settled in, more stable. The adjustment involves a tucking of the coccyx and a slight forward rotation of the pelvic girdle when steping back. Close? This makes sense, and I'll continue to work on it.

But that steping forward into a cat- unless you are doing a drag step to get closer, which is not the case in this technique, I just don't see it. And the original post said that he steped forward with his right foot into a cat from a right neutral bow. This commits too much weight to the right foot, grounding it and preventing the kick until you've shifted weight back to the left (trailing) foot. I really doubt you are supporting that statement, unless I'm missing something. So, are you refering here to that internal adjustment also? If you do step forward, how do you cat and get off a kick without transfering weight to the trailing foot- a backward motion?

I did try the front snap kick just rocking back, and it is unstable due to the misalignment you mentioned. But I was taught to drop a little and get my hips under the kick. This takes care of the misalignment and makes the cat and kick stable, I think.

I'm heading out to Idaho, but I'll be looking forward to your reply. Thanks for the information so far.

Respectfully, :asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by ob2c
Well Doc, it's 3:00AM, so I don't have anyone to push me. But I've been experimentin', and I think I can see at least part of what you are getting at. You are focusing on more the internal aspect in the allignment of the joints in the hip. When I step back into a neutral bow I can feel a slight floating sensation on the ball joints at the hips. Steping forward these joints seem to be more settled in, more stable.

That's anatomically correct.

The adjustment involves a tucking of the coccyx and a slight forward rotation of the pelvic girdle when steping back. Close?

No. When you move forward it is natural and requires no conscious effort.

But that steping forward into a cat- unless you are doing a drag step to get closer, which is not the case in this technique,

To move forward into a cat it is a drag-step. What is the definition of a kick? "An exagerrated step." So when you drag step, simply exaggerate the step and you will transition through a cat and your kick will be explosive, and more importantly anatomically aligned making it more powerful with less effort.

I did try the front snap kick just rocking back, and it is unstable due to the misalignment you mentioned.

Yes, it's hard to miss even though instructors teach it incorrectly. Any reasonable pressure from the front will knock you on your keister.

But I was taught to drop a little and get my hips under the kick. This takes care of the misalignment and makes the cat and kick stable, I think.

No it doesn't. Remember what I said. "You move back, no alignment. It is impossible without a correcting mechanism. Instructors have been teaching the "hips under and forward" with the front kick forever, and it is anatomically wrong. When you push the hips forward and under, you misalign yourself further, and loose what back up mass you had by pushing your shoulders rearward of the "lateral central balance point" causing yourself to be thrust rearward when any significant contact is made.

I'm heading out to Idaho, but I'll be looking forward to your reply. Thanks for the information so far.

Have fun with all the masters. You can do your experiment there, but don't tell them where it came from they might put you out.

 

[ob2c]

Doc, Mr. Hirst and Mr. Sepulvada said to say hello.
I'll have to get back later on the kick as it is midnight and I just got back in. Been a long day- later...

 

[ob2c]

I've had some time now to play a little with this and to think on it. I didn't ask anyone about it, so these are my own thoughts (red flags? ).

I think I can feel the structural disconnect you refer to when steping back into a stance, Dr. Chapel. But I can't conclude that you'd always want to step forward into a stance even if it is structurally more solid. You need to consider isues of speed, distance and positioning as well as stability. In Sword of Destruction, you need to move back for the proper distance - forward is a little close unless you deliver a shin kick and change the follow up strike (not necessarily a bad thing, but not the technique). Also, it is extremely important to snap that kick fast. He can still move in depth, and has offensive and defensive options. Adding a step forward can't be as fast as simply moving through a cat and kicking, even though the time is only a fraction of a second more.

I guess I'd compare this to using a forward bow. When power and stability are important, you lock it out. When speed and mobility are important, you use a transitional (unrooted) forward bow.

I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on my thinking. But I also have a question. If I step forward into a neutral bow from a natural stance, then step through reverse, I don't feel that disconnect every time, though sometimes I do. I'm not sure, but I may be compensating some with muscles. But it doesn't feel like that is the only reason. It feels like a mechanically strong stance, unlike the disconnect when steping back into the stance initially. Is this correct? If so, why?

This is something I can honestly say I've never considered before. It's an intrigueing issue, and a good thing to be aware of, regardless how you step.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by ob2c
I've had some time now to play a little with this and to think on it. I didn't ask anyone about it, so these are my own thoughts (red flags? ).

I think I can feel the structural disconnect you refer to when steping back into a stance, Dr. Chapel. But I can't conclude that you'd always want to step forward into a stance even if it is structurally more solid. You need to consider isues of speed, distance and positioning as well as stability. In Sword of Destruction, you need to move back for the proper distance - forward is a little close unless you deliver a shin kick and change the follow up strike (not necessarily a bad thing, but not the technique). Also, it is extremely important to snap that kick fast. He can still move in depth, and has offensive and defensive options. Adding a step forward can't be as fast as simply moving through a cat and kicking, even though the time is only a fraction of a second more.

I guess I'd compare this to using a forward bow. When power and stability are important, you lock it out. When speed and mobility are important, you use a transitional (unrooted) forward bow.

I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on my thinking. But I also have a question. If I step forward into a neutral bow from a natural stance, then step through reverse, I don't feel that disconnect every time, though sometimes I do. I'm not sure, but I may be compensating some with muscles. But it doesn't feel like that is the only reason. It feels like a mechanically strong stance, unlike the disconnect when steping back into the stance initially. Is this correct? If so, why?

This is something I can honestly say I've never considered before. It's an intrigueing issue, and a good thing to be aware of, regardless how you step.

Have you done your homework? Did you do the PHYSICAL experiment with a partner? If so, what were your findings? What is your conclusion(s).

 

[ob2c]

No, sir. My new partner did not show up for training last night, so I havn't done this with a partner yet, other than my wife. I don't count that because I can easily resist her even steping back. My observations are just from walking through this several times with different shoes/boots on and trying to get a feel for the stance.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by ob2c
No, sir. My new partner did not show up for training last night, so I havn't done this with a partner yet, other than my wife. I don't count that because I can easily resist her even steping back. My observations are just from walking through this several times with different shoes/boots on and trying to get a feel for the stance.

We can continue the discussion after you've completed the experiment. In this way we form a central basis and expereince model for discussion. However the size of the person should be of no consequence as lng as they push at shoulder level rearword and you maintain what you feel is the "integrity" of the stance posture specifications.

 

[Michael Billings]

Oss Gentlemen,

I have tried it both ways and have always preferred stepping in (and attacking their weapon), but in a "GoFast" situation ... i.e. the person standing shoulder to shoulder with you in a bar hooks at your head with the full mug of beer he has (yes, I saw it done) an in-place settling stablizes your base instantly. Your lead leg does move forward, but not necessarily the axis of your body. Although I do try to engage my mass so it moves at least fractionally forward as I execute the blocking strike.

This may be another scenario to try with a partner. It is very different when you have someone with mass vectoring in and pressing you. You know instantly if you have stablized your base, anchored your elbows and have appropriate bracing angles. The modified forward bow (soft bow or modified close kneel) did not stand up for me against the pressure. I think we tend to do this to open the hips early for the kick, but if the kick is an exaggerated step, the way Dr. Chape'l describes it, (and it is), then the striking block is very effective, and you don't have to worry whether it works or not. Fun to play with at the least.

Oss,
-Michael

 

[longform6]

I the point everytone is trying to make...Do what works for you. Look at all the top Kenpo stylists; all different size and shapes. We were taught an alphabet-make your own words and sentences to fit you needs. If it works, do it. Just make sure you can back up the application with a explanation that makes sense.

We all have something to learn from others!

 

[Doc]

I guess he decided to not further the discussion.

 

[longform6]

Don't be haten'...Love the signature.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Just to ask the obvious dumb question, what's their right hand doin' while you step forward? and where's your left?

A less dumb question, based on teaching: shouldn't beginners learn to always step back? Not just because it's safer in "reality," (and I still think that may be the most-overused and least-understood word in kenpo), but because this dovetails with the base curriculum for yellow belt? and Short 1?

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Perhaps someone would describe the foot manuevers required to step forward.

Are you suggesting that the defender
- step forward then slide the right leg back to a cat to kick?
- step forward then slide the left leg up to a cat to kick?
- ignore the kick all together?
- do something other than what is mentioned above?

 

[Titan Uk]

The techniques is a fairly easy one to learn with lots of principles, for people to learn.
Once learnt it can be playabout with to suit individuals who find that some bits don't work for them and so they adapt them. But the original technique is still there in it's true form.
It is but a tool in your tool box which can be use together with other ones.
It is unlikely that anyone technique will work completely on everyone or that you would be able to complete the technique