Thundering Hammers

[MJS]

Front straight right punch

1) Standing naturally, with feet together, step to your left on a 45 degree angle to 11 o'clock, with your left into a left neutral bow as you strike with a left inward block to the outside of your opponents right arm (preferably at or above the elbow) and cock your right arm parallel to your right thigh as it hangs naturally to the side.

2) Shuffle forward (push drag) toward 12 o'clock as you drop into a left wide kneel stance (to outside of opponents right knee so as to have opponent buckle and drop) and strike horizontally across your opponents stomach with your right inward horizontal forearm strike while cocking your left arm by your left ear, with palm facing away from you.

3) Strike down to opponents left kidney with a left downward hammerfist as your right arm checks opponents right arm. You should be in a right close kneel stance, facing 4 o'clock.

4) Have your left hand shift from the kidney into a horizontal forearm check outside of your opponents right arm, as your right arm cocks to your right ear. You should still be in a right close kneel facing 4.

5) Pivot to your left toward 1, into a left close kneel stance as you deliver a right downward hammerfist to back of opponents neck; your left hand is still checking action of your opponents right arm.

6) Shift your left foot back and slightly to your left between 7 and 8 o clock, into a right neutral bow and deliver a right looping back knuckle strike to opponents left temple. Shuffle forward with a right upward heel palm and claw to opponents face.


1. Standing naturally with feet together, step to your left on a 45 degree angle (to 11:00) with your left foot into a left neutral bow as you strike with a left inward block to outside of opponent's right arm (preferably at or above the elbow) and cock your right arm parallel to your right thigh as it hangs naturally to the side.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]2. Shuffle forward (push drag) toward 12:00 as you drop into a left wide kneel stance (to outside of opponent's right knee so as to have opponent buckle and drop) and strike horizontally across your opponent's stomach with your right inward horizontal forearm strike while cocking your left arm (your left hand at this point is cocked by your left ear with your palm facing away from you).[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]3. Strike down to opponent's left kidney with a left downward hammer fist as your right arm checks opponent's right arm. You should be in a right close kneel stance facing 4:00.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]4. Have your left hand shift from the kidney into a horizontal forearm check outside of opponent's right arm as your right arm cocks to your right ear. You should still be in a right close kneel stance facing 4:00.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]5. Pivot to your left (toward 1:00) into a left close kneel stance as you deliver a right downward hammer fist to back of opponent's neck; your left hand at this point is still checking action of opponent's right arm (left pushdown check).[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]6. Shift your left foot back and slightly to your left (between 7:00 and 8:00) into a right neutral bow and do a right looping back knuckle strike to opponent's left temple. Shuffle toward 2:00 with a right upward heel palm and claw to opponent's face.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]7. Cat stance back from opponent with clawing hand anchored on chin and check opponent's right shoulder down as you utilize returning motion to retract the claw.[/SIZE][/FONT]


1. Standing natually with feet together, step to your left on a 45 degree angle (to 11:00) with your left foot into a left neutral bow as you strike with a left inward block to outside of opponent's right arm (preferably at or above the elbow) and cock your right arm parallel to your right thigh as it hangs naturally to the side.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]2. Shuffle forward (push drag) toward 12:00 as you drop into a left wide kneel stance (to outside of opponent's right knee so as to have opponent buckle and drop) and strike horizontally across your opponent's stomach with your right inward horizontal forearm strike while cocking your left arm (your left hand at this point is cocked by your left ear with your palm facing away from you).[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]3. Strike down to opponent's left kidney with a left downward hammer fist as your right arm checks opponent's right arm. You should be in a right close kneel stance facing 4:00.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]4. Have your left hand shift from the kidney into a horizontal forearm check outside of opponent's right arm as your right arm cocks to your right ear. You should still be in a right close kneel stance facing 4:00.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]5. Pivot to your left (toward 1:00) into a left close kneel stance as you deliver a right downward hammer fist to back of opponent's neck; your left hand at this point is still checking action of opponent's right arm (left pushdown check).[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]6. Shift your left foot back and slightly to your left (between 7:00 and 8:00) into a right neutral bow and do a right looping back knuckle strike to opponent's left temple. Shuffle toward 2:00 with a right upward heel palm and claw to opponent's face.[/SIZE][/FONT]


1. Standing naturally with feet together, step to your left on a 45 degree angle (toh your left foot into a left neutral bow as you strike with a left inward block to outside of opponent's right arm (preferably at or above the elbow) and cock your right arm parallel to your right thigh as it hangs naturally to the side.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]2. Shuffle forward (push drag) toward 12:00 as you drop into a left wide kneel stance (to outside of opponent's right knee so as to have opponent buckle and drop) and strike horizontally across your opponent's stomach with your right inward horizontal forearm strike while cocking your left arm (your left hand at this point is cocked by your left ear with your palm facing away from you).[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]3. Strike down to opponent's left kidney with a left downward hammer fist as your right arm checks opponent's right arm. You should be in a right close kneel stance facing 4:00.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]4. Have your left hand shift from the kidney into a horizontal forearm check outside of opponent's right arm as your right arm cocks to your right ear. You should still be in a right close kneel stance facing 4:00.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]5. Pivot to your left (toward 1:00) into a left close kneel stance as you deliver a right downward hammer fist to back of opponent's neck; your left hand at this point is still checking action of opponent's right arm (left pushdown check).[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]6. Shift your left foot back and slightly to your left (between 7:00 and 8:00) into a right neutral bow and do a right looping back knuckle strike to opponent's left temple. Shuffle toward 2:00 with a right upward heel palm and claw to opponent's face.[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

This should be interesting...

 

[michaeledward]

We don't do the last step in your write up in our technique version, of course, it is an intregal part of Form 4.

I love working this technique with a new person, as I did today. At step 4, where you put in the arm check, newbies will often expose their center line as they raise their right arm for the last strike. A quick flip of the elbow, and a 'teaching moment' appears.

Mike

 

[JamesB]

Here's my take:

1. I've never really been happy with the 'step up' defence against a straight-punch - I find I'm too far forwards in relation to the attacker, making it very difficult to perform an inward block - the block hits almost at the shoulder.

instead I prefer to follow my natural inclination which is to step backwards (away) and then transition to neutral bow with the block (actually for most punch techs e.g. thundering, sleeper etc).

As I am drawing away from the attacker I may decide that I do in fact want to be closer, in which case I make that adjustment as I transition to neutral-bow.

2. I then *step-drag* forwards to a close-kneel (not wide-kneel). I see this detail being important as I want my rear foot to be planting last, as I strike. The position of the attacker's lead leg doesn't seem to be in the appropriate place for a wide-kneel stance to come into contact - a close-kneel would be required here?? not sure as to the actual importance of the first knee-strike in this tech...

Also I see the forward hip-alignment of the close-kneel being important because it is (as I was taught) a 'collapsed' forward bow - I need a forward-stance on this strike as I am striking with my rear arm. A wide-kneel on the other hand is a collapsed neutral-bow (IIRC), and doesn't give me a good stance to strike forwards from, as I understand it.

Hopefully the inward block in #1 has significantly disturbed the HWD of the attacker and has caused his body to collapse downwards. The alignment of the attacker's body is important because it dictates the angle-of-incidence of your counter-attack. A horizontal strike (relative to the floor), when struck against a body which is bent forwards at 45degrees is actually a downward strike in relation to the attacker's body. (which is good as I see it).

The target of this strike is *very* important and dictates the rest of the technique.

3. Won't comment on the rest, only to say that the vertically downard-hammerfists are only downard relative to *you*, they hit at an angle relative to the attacker. This is important, would like to hear what other people say about this.

 

[JamesB]

On another note, this is one of three 'dead hand' techniques as commonly practiced, where the right hand is left doing nothing as the left arm blocks - the right hand then strikes from 'point-of-origin' as it hangs naturally to the side of the body.

I'd be interested to see what Doc has to say about disgregarding the entire right arm as the left arm is blocking. Doesn't seem to be the most effective use of one's body against this type of attack..?

 

[spiderboy]

James -

If nothing else mate, remember -

"I am a wet noodle"

See you soon i hope

Alex

 

[Rick Wade]

Inside the UKF utilizing the 12 poits of consideration (your hands up in a fighting stance) the right hand would not be a dead hand. it is very active and acts much more like a strike in addition we utilize the those stance sifts as buckles and breaks to the enemys right ankle. you will end up breaking his anckle. The mistake I see (or think I see0 to many times with this technique is that people try to go to fast once they have the enemy bent over. There is a definate timing to this technique.

V/R

Rick

PS for a picture of 12 points of consideration go to the UKF website or refer to Mr. Pick's picture in the Journey.

V/R

Rick

 

[Touch Of Death]

Here's my take:

1. I've never really been happy with the 'step up' defence against a straight-punch - I find I'm too far forwards in relation to the attacker, making it very difficult to perform an inward block - the block hits almost at the shoulder.

instead I prefer to follow my natural inclination which is to step backwards (away) and then transition to neutral bow with the block (actually for most punch techs e.g. thundering, sleeper etc).

As I am drawing away from the attacker I may decide that I do in fact want to be closer, in which case I make that adjustment as I transition to neutral-bow.

2. I then *step-drag* forwards to a close-kneel (not wide-kneel). I see this detail being important as I want my rear foot to be planting last, as I strike. The position of the attacker's lead leg doesn't seem to be in the appropriate place for a wide-kneel stance to come into contact - a close-kneel would be required here?? not sure as to the actual importance of the first knee-strike in this tech...

Also I see the forward hip-alignment of the close-kneel being important because it is (as I was taught) a 'collapsed' forward bow - I need a forward-stance on this strike as I am striking with my rear arm. A wide-kneel on the other hand is a collapsed neutral-bow (IIRC), and doesn't give me a good stance to strike forwards from, as I understand it.

Hopefully the inward block in #1 has significantly disturbed the HWD of the attacker and has caused his body to collapse downwards. The alignment of the attacker's body is important because it dictates the angle-of-incidence of your counter-attack. A horizontal strike (relative to the floor), when struck against a body which is bent forwards at 45degrees is actually a downward strike in relation to the attacker's body. (which is good as I see it).

The target of this strike is *very* important and dictates the rest of the technique.

3. Won't comment on the rest, only to say that the vertically downard-hammerfists are only downard relative to *you*, they hit at an angle relative to the attacker. This is important, would like to hear what other people say about this.

The whole point of the step forward tech is that stepping back puts you at a diadvantage in that case. Proper attacks would teach you this; however, I'll let Doc explain it to you or tell you I'm wrong. I gotta fifty fifty chance.
Sean

 

[MJS]

I've always done this tech. with a wide kneel in the beginning, as I find it to check his leg better. Personally, I'd rather step forward on an angle, rather than back. However, there are times when going back on an angle is necessary. I also wouldnt say that the right hand is 'dead' for too long, considering the forearm strike should be in motion shortly after the initial block.

Mike

 

[bushidomartialarts]

this is a great technique to practice leg checks and cheap shots to the ankle.

you can literally use is while handcuffed.

1. dodge or bob/weave out of the punch's way to the left and forward (10oc or so)

2. shuffle in until you've got a nice solid leg check with your right knee locking out his right knee.

3. turn to face 4 oc and drive your left knee into the back of his right knee, buckling it.

4. turn back to face 12 oc and put your right knee on the top of his calf. drop hard enough to finish the takedown.

5. the twisting motion that ends the technique becomes a wheel kick or spinning heel hook.

 

[Touch Of Death]

this is a great technique to practice leg checks and cheap shots to the ankle.

you can literally use is while handcuffed.

1. dodge or bob/weave out of the punch's way to the left and forward (10oc or so)

2. shuffle in until you've got a nice solid leg check with your right knee locking out his right knee.

3. turn to face 4 oc and drive your left knee into the back of his right knee, buckling it.

4. turn back to face 12 oc and put your right knee on the top of his calf. drop hard enough to finish the takedown.

5. the twisting motion that ends the technique becomes a wheel kick or spinning heel hook.

This is true. If you can't do this one without using your hands, you are doing it wrong.
Sean

 

[bushidomartialarts]

either doing it wrong or working a cool variation, neh?

 

[HKphooey]

What are your thoughts on executing one explosive move which combines steps one and two. As the punch comes in, bob with a shuffle, L. inward block, R. forearm strike, and R. knee check/smack to opponent's right knee (all timed at about the same moment). I find it works OK for me, but I am much taller long arms and legs. The nice thing is that if things do not go as planned, I have the inward block and the forearm set up for a nice trap of the attackers arm.

 

[parkerkarate]

What are your thoughts on executing one explosive move which combines steps one and two. As the punch comes in, bob with a shuffle, L. inward block, R. forearm strike, and R. knee check/smack to opponent's right knee (all timed at about the same moment). I find it works OK for me, but I am much taller long arms and legs. The nice thing is that if things do not go as planned, I have the inward block and the forearm set up for a nice trap of the attackers arm.

I would rather block or parry first and than make the forearm and the knee the second move.

 

[Doc]

The whole point of the step forward tech is that stepping back puts you at a diadvantage in that case. Proper attacks would teach you this; however, I'll let Doc explain it to you or tell you I'm wrong. I gotta fifty fifty chance.
Sean

That's cold Sean, you know there's no such thing as 'wrong.' Let's just say "consistently functionally ineffective." Wait! I'm being set up! Anyway with a minor clarification, I have to agree with you on this point.

 

[Doc]

Front straight right punch

1) Standing naturally, with feet together, step to your left on a 45 degree angle to 11 o'clock, with your left into a left neutral bow as you strike with a left inward block to the outside of your opponents right arm (preferably at or above the elbow) and cock your right arm parallel to your right thigh as it hangs naturally to the side.

2) Shuffle forward (push drag) toward 12 o'clock as you drop into a left wide kneel stance (to outside of opponents right knee so as to have opponent buckle and drop) and strike horizontally across your opponents stomach with your right inward horizontal forearm strike while cocking your left arm by your left ear, with palm facing away from you.

3) Strike down to opponents left kidney with a left downward hammerfist as your right arm checks opponents right arm. You should be in a right close kneel stance, facing 4 o'clock.

4) Have your left hand shift from the kidney into a horizontal forearm check outside of your opponents right arm, as your right arm cocks to your right ear. You should still be in a right close kneel facing 4.

5) Pivot to your left toward 1, into a left close kneel stance as you deliver a right downward hammerfist to back of opponents neck; your left hand is still checking action of your opponents right arm.

6) Shift your left foot back and slightly to your left between 7 and 8 o clock, into a right neutral bow and deliver a right looping back knuckle strike to opponents left temple. Shuffle forward with a right upward heel palm and claw to opponents face.

A lot going on here. I think the first thing that needs to be addressed is the 'footwork' and angles in the initial attack and response.

 

[MJS]

A lot going on here. I think the first thing that needs to be addressed is the 'footwork' and angles.

Sounds good. What do you suggest?

Mike

 

[Doc]

Here's my take:

1. I've never really been happy with the 'step up' defence against a straight-punch - I find I'm too far forwards in relation to the attacker, making it very difficult to perform an inward block - the block hits almost at the shoulder.

This is a 'category completion' technique full of inconsistencies. Your 'unhappiness' with this 'step up' defense is duly noted and I concur. Depending upon the curriculum, it shares a relationsip with 'Dance of Death,' and 'Flashing Mace,' completing the low, midle, high scenarios some thought should be addressed. All of them also have the 'dead' or 'passive hand' on the initial block. So how do we deal with it?

 

[kenpoworks]

Hey Doc,
for myself the "step up defence" as you refer to them had to be qualified by seeing them as a "slip" otherwise the whole thing became too mechanical, this the first time i have heard you mention "category completion" and with respect I would like some opinion on its real relevance.
W.R.
Rich

 

[JamesB]

This is a 'category completion' technique full of inconsistencies. Your 'unhappiness' with this 'step up' defense is duly noted and I concur. Depending upon the curriculum, it shares a relationsip with 'Dance of Death,' and 'Flashing Mace,' completing the low, midle, high scenarios some thought should be addressed. All of them also have the 'dead' or 'passive hand' on the initial block. So how do we deal with it?

yes, my understanding of this technique (and the other techs you mention), is that it is a 'category completion', with the left (guard) hand of the attacker dictating the available targets, and therefore the technique that should be used. Never really cared too much for that kind of concept but anyhow..

At the time I first learnt these defences, the 'dead hand' concept was just another thing to learn (I am but a beginner in a...) Now though, I have come to understand that leaving one arm doing nothing is not a good or effective way to deal with these attacks.

I don't have any good answers I'm afraid, but I would conjecture that prior to blocking with my left arm, I would attempt at least some form of initial defence with my right...that would be either an outward parry, or maybe a rising forearm block (leading to outward-vertical block) like we just learnt in class This would be my initial defence, not the left-inward-block as is usually taught. My goal would be to make contact with the attacker's punching arm, with the intent to misalign him (somehow), reduce his structure, and at the same time, with the same sequence of actions, add to my own structure and defensive posture. I'm guessing though - I don't know.

As to the whole step up / footwork aspect of these defences, Touch-of-Death had this to say about my comment on stepping forward:

The whole point of the step forward tech is that stepping back puts you at a diadvantage in that case.

OK, I kind of disagree, but I don't fully understand what he meant because he says 'in this case'..so I'm left thinking that I'm missing something here. Here is *my* understanding of some of the pros/cons of a stepping-up strategy:

For:
1. Theoretically puts you in better position for follow-up attack, more options because you are closer, can attack but he can't defend.
2. Has a phsycological (sp?) effect on the attacker as he's not expecting you to step up.

Against:
1. You can't really step 'up' because you'll get punched in the face. So you have to step to 11ish, which is more of a 'step out'. The blocking action of the left arm, coupled with this 'step out', makes for a less effective block because the arm is blocking in one direction, but the legs are moving in another = split power.
2. Cannot do a 'proper' inward block to the arm because the attacker is stepping forwards, and you step too far past him, making the block hit at the outside of his shoulder...unless that is the idea..?
3. Very difficult for a beginner to execute with any kind of confidence as a result.

I wouldn't really want to step up + block (see point#2) so instead maybe just step up + parry the arm and slip the attack.

Assuming that it desirable to 'step up' for this defence, very specific footwork would be required. Instead of just blindly stepping up, I would take an initial step rearward with my right foot to gain a little distance, then step forwards with the block...the idea being to adjust my footwork as/when required to make the technique work.

Well I still maintain that 'stepping up' is a less desirable option than stepping back, and I do not believe that stepping away from a punch technique puts me at any disadvantage...Attacking Mace deals specifically for this type of attack with a 'step back' and that technique is hugely effective.. so I'm obviously missing something in my understanding of the attacks, and how the attack differs between Thundering Hammers / Sleeper / Attacking Mace.

I guess there's a very specific reason why all these techniques exist, and probably it's because of the nature of the attack being different in each case...maybe variation in the attacker's footwork/posture each time, which tells us maybe he's gonna through a different combo with each attack?