Thundering Hammers

[Michael Billings]

Jeff, I like it. It would work fine. This is the one we were working in 1989 - 1990. It is all good stuff.

Oos,
-Michael

 

[jfarnsworth]

That variation in which I put up came from Mr. Planas. I'll give credit where it is due.

 

[fanged_seamus]

While a lot has been said about the "hand work" in this technique, I personally find the "knee work" to be more effective at dropping an attacker.

When I first saw the technique demonstrated, a buddy of mine showed me the technique just using his hands to check. On each stance change (from left to right close kneels), he dropped his weight a little more. Buckling does not even BEGIN to describe what was going on with my leg! As he said, "The trick: Screw them to the floor."

Within the limits of practicing the technique (and not crippling your training partner), using the close kneel effectively can help with directing your attacker's actions.

Hope this helps....

Tad

 

[cassidy]

Go to ikka.us and there is a video clip of it being performed by larry kongaika

 

[bdparsons]

"But what if the attacker doesn't bend over when you execute a right inward forearm to the lower stomach ??"

The knee checks play a huge part in the effectiveness of this technique, but in reponse to your original question.. Have you considered changing the initial strike? Instead of a forearm across the lower stomach, what about a groin strike using either a ridge hand or thumb knuckle strike? If there is any doubt as to the effectiveness of a technique, analyze it and see if it needs changing.

Respects,
Bill Parsons

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by bdparsons
"But what if the attacker doesn't bend over when you execute a right inward forearm to the lower stomach ??"

The knee checks play a huge part in the effectiveness of this technique, but in reponse to your original question.. Have you considered changing the initial strike? Instead of a forearm across the lower stomach, what about a groin strike using either a ridge hand or thumb knuckle strike? If there is any doubt as to the effectiveness of a technique, analyze it and see if it needs changing.

Respects,
Bill Parsons

Let me just say this, I know for a fact that Mr. Parker called Thundering Hammers and Dance of Death "cousins"....

 

[WhiteTiger]

Originally posted by Kirk
But what if the attacker doesn't
bend over when you execute a right inward forearm to the lower
stomach ?? What do you do then? Go into another technique?

There is no One answer to this question we all learn by the time we become Purple belts, there are an infinate number of variations for any technique. If any kenpo practicianer thinks about it they can probably come up with 20 or so possibilities for variations to Thundering Hammers. In any case, you assess position, identify vulnerable targets, and employ most effective weapon. This is the very reason we teach not only what the movement is, but the mechanics of that motion as well. Then the student is able to experiment with a technique and discover on their own what the possibilities are.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by bdparsons
"But what if the attacker doesn't bend over when you execute a right inward forearm to the lower stomach ??"

The knee checks play a huge part in the effectiveness of this technique, but in reponse to your original question.. Have you considered changing the initial strike? Instead of a forearm across the lower stomach, what about a groin strike using either a ridge hand or thumb knuckle strike? If there is any doubt as to the effectiveness of a technique, analyze it and see if it needs changing.

Respects,
Bill Parsons

Obviously all of the posts are good with good thought. So you finish with something else in the family group or hit them harder or etc.etc.

 

[Michael Billings]

... with good discussion guys. Have enjoyed re-reading it.

Oss,
-Michael

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Kirk
I just learned this tech about 2 weeks ago, so I'm big time new
at it. And I know Mr C will probably give me a hard time about
asking this . But what if the attacker doesn't
bend over when you execute a right inward forearm to the lower
stomach ?? What do you do then? Go into another technique?

I've read this post...AWESOME! Great ideas and insight from many.

Another suggestion is to do Flashing Wings if he DOESN'T bend over. It follows the same flow of action as Thundering Hammers.:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by bdparsons
"But what if the attacker doesn't bend over when you execute a right inward forearm to the lower stomach ??"

The knee checks play a huge part in the effectiveness of this technique, but in reponse to your original question.. Have you considered changing the initial strike? Instead of a forearm across the lower stomach, what about a groin strike using either a ridge hand or thumb knuckle strike? If there is any doubt as to the effectiveness of a technique, analyze it and see if it needs changing. Respects, Bill Parsons

A lot of very good energy and thinking on this string has been paid to the "What if Phase".... which is good. However, I would like to address the background behind this technique and its family.

In response to Mr. Parsons......

Changing the initial strike was the foundation of these techniques.

The Dance of Death, Thundering Hammers and the Sleeper are all related thru the first blocking action. Originally the Dance of Death (dod) was taught for a right punch with the left leg lead, thus a complete opening to the groin with a reverse hand sword while the right hand hangs at our waist.

Out of a what if question came the next technique....

Thundering Hammers.......... question was..... "What if" the opponents right leg is in the lead and the groin is NOT open for a reverse hand sword? Mr. Parker then instructed that you use the inward horizontal forearm to the midsection which now WAS an open target.

Then someone asked "What if" the opponent is turned sideways so the midsection is not an open target now......

Mr. Parker then taught again to move up and use a reverse hand sword to the neck, thus you have the birth of the "Sleeper".

Endings varied between the 3 techniques but the beginnings had simple adjustments to teach formulation.

and now you know......... the rest of the story.....

:asian:

 

[jeffkyle]

It is nice to know where it all came from. Thanks.

 

[KenpoGirl]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

and now you know......... the rest of the story.....

Excellent reply Mr. C, glad to see your input on martial talk again. I'm sure we all hope you post again soon.

Thundering Hammer, Sleeper are two of my favourite techniques. Nice to see the history of how "Family Groupings" are developed.

Dot

 

[jfarnsworth]

Thank you as always Mr.C on sharing your knowledge. It's nice to see/hear the evolution of techniques.

 

[Handsword]

I was wondering if you guys could go into a bit more detail of the type and delivery method of natural weapons used for the first strike to the body...

Originally posted by Kirk
THUNDERING HAMMERS

2. Slide right leg up into a left Close Kneel stance (buckling
attackers knee with your left knee) while doing a right inward
forearm to attackers lower stomach while raising your left fist up
high.

I find that an inward forearm applys a flat weapon to a flat target which spreads the impact over too much surface area. At what angle is your elbow for this strike?

Originally posted by cdhall
We did this technique with a "dead arm" in Mr. Parker Jrs last seminar if you remember. I almost broke my guy in half.

What do you mean by a "dead arm"? Is this different from the inward forearm described above?

Originally posted by Michael Billings
10. Thundering Hammers (Front- Right Step Through Punch)

3. Shuffle towards 12:00 utilizing back-up mass as you pivot into a left close kneel and execute a right horizontal reverse hammer fist to your opponent's mid-section.

Does a reverse hammer fist strike with the two main knuckles, the top of the fist or the top of the thumb?

I have seen (and practiced) this technique with a two knuckle strike (palm facing outward) delivered with a bend maintained in the elbow. If this does not bend the attacker over, then the combination of a left knee buckle and an upward/outward forearm through the attacker's right armpit cancels both their width and depth.

Personally, I have trouble making proper use of the first right knee buckle/check without risking a direct clash of knees while I and my attacker step forward. Working one-on-one with a partner, I can find the right spot most times, although when running a technique line (with different people stepping forward in different ways) then I err on the side of caution and perform my first buckle with the left knee.

As always, comments welcome!

 

[cassidy]

Go to ikka.us and go to the video clips portion and you will see it being performed the way ed parker taught it.

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Handsword
What do you mean by a "dead arm"? Is this different from the inward forearm described above?

It was a process of loosening our bodies and just letting our arms motion be dictated by the momentum of our bodies torque. Basically a systema principle Edmund probably picked up from Vlad while training in that system. We also did some "systema" go with the flow of the attacker ground defense stuff as I recall and some systema-like body lever positioning things, and filipino hubud drills...hey, wait a minute...was that a Kenpo seminar we were at?

jb:asian:

 

[ken_loc]

alright so your saying that as you execute the right inward horizontal forearm, you raise your fist high in the air?
............. i'm going to tell you now, if you do that there won't be a next move. you will be unconcious. why you ask?
because the guy knocked you out with his right elbow.:asian:

 

[jfarnsworth]

I believe in the ideal phase here that after the initial block the attacker should be checked on the width zone. This should give you the "ideal" shot for the inward horizontal forearm strike. As the attacker "ideally" is supposed to bend over at the waist your right elbow should slide up to act as a check at the tricep of the attacker.
My opinion would be that if you didn't get the attacker checked enough then you'd probably better move into brushing or escape from the storm. That is if your right arm is still in close and across the mid-section of the attacker. :asian: