Sword Of Destruction

[Rob_Broad]

(front - left straight or roundhouse punch)

1)Standing naturally, step back with your left foot toward 6:00 into a right neautral bow stance (facing 12:00), as you simultaneously execute a right outward extended block to the inner forearm of your opponent's left punch. Your left hand should be in a positional check at your right shoulder.

2)Immediatly slide your right foot forward into a 45 degree cat stance to create forward body momentum.

3)Without hesitation deliver a right front snap ball kick to your opponent's groin. (Your kick shoul dcause your opponent to bend forward at the waist.)

4)While planting your right foot forward, inside of your opponent's left leg, and into a right neutral bow (facing 12:00), employ marriage of gravity as you execute a right inward handsword strike to the left side of your opponent's neck. (This action should cause your opponent to fall to the ground.)

5)Immediatly snap your right hand back to the left shoulder of your opponent to act as a check.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

I would think if someone was throwing a punch and if they were trying to land it on you they would be real close. I can see the outward block be I can't see landing a front kick on them. Maybe a rising knee strike.
Bob :asian:

 

[kenmpoka]

The gap (room) for the kick is provided by the transitional cat right before the kick. You actually need that kick to disturb his center line.

:asian:

 

[headkick]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I would think if someone was throwing a punch and if they were trying to land it on you they would be real close. I can see the outward block be I can't see landing a front kick on them. Maybe a rising knee strike.
Bob :asian:

What's the first movement of a front snap kick? The knee is perfectly acceptable. But, this is a roundhouse punch, not a hook punch. Difference being where the punch is intended to hit relative to the apex of the circle it's travelling on.

But, it's a range issue. Make adjustments as YOU need them. Gaging steps. Paul Dye does great seminars on that one topic. I finish this technique with a push drag with the handsword. I combine this with a heel palm to the sternum or ribs. Then sweep on the cover out if it's there.

R

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
(front - left straight or roundhouse punch)

1)Standing naturally, step back with your left foot toward 6:00 into a right neautral bow stance (facing 12:00), as you simultaneously execute a right outward extended block to the inner forearm of your opponent's left punch. Your left hand should be in a positional check at your right shoulder.

Ok except for the "positional check."

2)Immediatly slide your right foot forward into a 45 degree cat stance to create forward body momentum.

3)Without hesitation deliver a right front snap ball kick to your opponent's groin. (Your kick shoul dcause your opponent to bend forward at the waist.)

The kick won't make you bend forward at the waist.

4)While planting your right foot forward, inside of your opponent's left leg, and into a right neutral bow (facing 12:00), employ marriage of gravity as you execute a right inward handsword strike to the left side of your opponent's neck. (This action should cause your opponent to fall to the ground.)
5)Immediatly snap your right hand back to the left shoulder of your opponent to act as a check.

Snap the hand back? Why?

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Since economy of motion is always on everyone's list of principles that shouldn't be violated, explain to me why you would step back and close your center line only to open it back up for the kick and then close it again as you plant for the chop to the neck?

Also what tools do you have in place to deal with the attack if it's a straight punch instead of the prescribed round house? If you are still in a natural stance when your opponent attacks, especially with something as direct and quick as a straight punch, your SCREWED :revenge:

Even if you are quick enough to step back, the way that most people block leaves them vulnerable to the initial attack (i.e. not able to stop it), or due to their mechanics and body positioning, leaves them open for the left right combo.

I see this in students across the kenpo spectrum ( I'm not saying that everybody does this, but I've seen it enough to warrant concern). I use to do the same thing, until I was taught a more effective manner of execution.

Before you guys go jumping all over me check something out for yourselves. Do Sword of Destruction a couple of times slow and then a couple of times fast. After the outward block if your hand pulls back towards your shoulder, even just a little, to facilitate the kick then you are doing something wrong. You are violating economy of motion.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Since economy of motion is always on everyone's list of principles that shouldn't be violated, explain to me why you would step back and close your center line only to open it back up for the kick and then close it again as you plant for the chop to the neck?

Also what tools do you have in place to deal with the attack if it's a straight punch instead of the prescribed round house? If you are still in a natural stance when your opponent attacks, especially with something as direct and quick as a straight punch, your SCREWED :revenge:

Even if you are quick enough to step back, the way that most people block leaves them vulnerable to the initial attack (i.e. not able to stop it), or due to their mechanics and body positioning, leaves them open for the left right combo.

I see this in students across the kenpo spectrum ( I'm not saying that everybody does this, but I've seen it enough to warrant concern). I use to do the same thing, until I was taught a more effective manner of execution.

Before you guys go jumping all over me check something out for yourselves. Do Sword of Destruction a couple of times slow and then a couple of times fast. After the outward block if your hand pulls back towards your shoulder, even just a little, to facilitate the kick then you are doing something wrong. You are violating economy of motion.

Well EOM is not at the top of everyone's list and certainly not mine. Although from my perspective there is merit to much of the things you have taken issue with, the crux for your comments seems to be about violating a "motion" concept, ie. "Economy Of Motion."

The question is, which is more important, economizing the motion, or being effective? Understand that no matter how liberal you apply and think of this concept, "economy of motion" cannot be the best way to execute in all circumstances. Or can it? If not, by what concept or principle should you be guided?

 

[Rob_Broad]

We also have to remember at what level this technique is taught. Yes it contains principles and concepts of motion, but more importantly it should be helping the student master their basics and become compfortable with others throwing punches at them. The yellow belt was meant to be a taster for kenpo for the uninitiated, not disected to the point where every beginner reading up on techniques in the various forum feel like they have missed the point.

I think we should often look at the techniques in the eyes of thelevel learning them, to see what they have to offer, not with Black belt eyes and hindsight.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
We also have to remember at what level this technique is taught. Yes it contains principles and concepts of motion, but more importantly it should be helping the student master their basics and become compfortable with others throwing punches at them. The yellow belt was meant to be a taster for kenpo for the uninitiated, not disected to the point where every beginner reading up on techniques in the various forum feel like they have missed the point.

I think we should often look at the techniques in the eyes of thelevel learning them, to see what they have to offer, not with Black belt eyes and hindsight.

Absolutely agree. Which is why you "step back" and create distance from your opponent. But it is also important you know the "yellow" techniques were created years after the others, and originally for children. One other point; motion is a concept not a principle.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

The question is, which is more important, economizing the motion, or being effective?

That's easy............ The answer is Economy of motion..
No, I'm just kidding. Of course effectiveness is more important, but it's been my experience (admittedly limited compared to some) that a number of problems can be answered simply by correcting an individuals movements. This is not to say that EOM is the end all, be all of kenpo, but it is an important aspect.

I think we should often look at the techniques in the eyes of the level learning them

I agree. So why do we teach a beginner to fluctuate the opening in their centerline? Why do we trouble them with learning how to manuever correctly from an attention position, to a RNB, to a cat stance, to a front snap kick, that is followed by MOG based chop that requires a student to effectively corkscrew back into a RNB to make use of the MOG, knowing full well that if they take to long they will likely eat another attack? Also, How would you deal with a left punch coming right down the pipe? It's hard to distinguish the two (roundhouse, straight) in real time. Why not address these issues before we teach them supplemental strikes that they may or may not ever get to use?

How about teaching environmental awareness so they aren't caught standing with their feet together knees locked? If this is your position when you get attacked your gonna get clocked 90% of the time (that's actually probably a bit generous I'm thinking 99%). I think that we would all agree that there is more to a system than a series of techniques and forms. There should also be the development of a combat mindeset and a "mean streak" starting from the day they walk through the door.

Back to SOD, 1) Why not teach them to slide their left foot back to a modified forward bow when they execute a right outward block. 2) Then execute an inward hammerfist or chop as their body rotates counterclockwise into a RNB.

The tools to deal with a straight punch or double punch are included in the specifics of the body mechanics and duel hand motion. A simple yet effective way to handle a punch. Granted you lose the kick, but later on as a student understands how to manipulate their stances better this can be reincorporated as an insert (Good ole equation formula).

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
This is not to say that EOM is the end all, be all of kenpo, but it is an important aspect.

Not as important as some think, but it does form the basis for teaching when the majority of the structure is conceptual.

From this perspective understanding motion is a good first step, however once you transcend the superficial it becomes less and less important and is supplanted by structure principles over abstract motion.

So why do we teach a beginner to fluctuate the opening in their centerline?

We teach a beginner to utilize "distance as their best friend" and step away and avoid the first strike, and turn their centerline away from the attacker. This also creates significant distance to place them out of reach for a secondary crossing punch without the attacker having to take another step forward.

Once they "Survive The Initial Assault" they can then utilize the step forward into the cat stance to bring significant body momentum to the front kick.

If the kick is executed properly it will set up the distance and torque for the right handsword coming from the hips as you pivot with substantial energy to bring finality to the circumstances.

knowing full well that if they take to long they will likely eat another attack?

"Distance is your best friend."

Also, How would you deal with a left punch coming right down the pipe? It's hard to distinguish the two (roundhouse, straight) in real time.

If blocking is taught correctly, it will address that issue. Your blocking should be such that it doesn't matter (in this technique) whether it's straight or round. Utilizing distance properly will negate the effects of the variable and allow them to move sooner while moving away from a possible second hand.

Why not address these issues before we teach them supplemental strikes that they may or may not ever get to use?

Agreed! That should be addressed and much more.

How about teaching environmental awareness so they aren't caught standing with their feet together knees locked? If this is your position when you get attacked your gonna get clocked 90% of the time (that's actually probably a bit generous I'm thinking 99%).

Well now I think you're not being realistic. A person can't always have their legs apart ready for a confrontation. The real world doesn't work that way no matter how "aware" you are.

I think that we would all agree that there is more to a system than a series of techniques and forms. There should also be the development of a combat mindeset and a "mean streak" starting from the day they walk through the door.

On this we can mostly agree. The "mean streak" I don't think is necessary and generates "bullies." You don't have to have a mean streak, only be willing to do what's necessary in a confrontation to come out on top. That's not being mean, only willing and able.

Back to SOD, 1) Why not teach them to slide their left foot back to a modified forward bow when they execute a right outward block.

Because an extended outward block will anatomically only work as a check from a forward bow, and is not capable of thwarting significant energy from a substantial attack.

2) Then execute an inward hammerfist or chop as their body rotates counterclockwise into a RNB.

That's proper for what the level should be teaching. Remember it is the first level of techniques. You are attempting to impart certain principles.

The tools to deal with a straight punch or double punch are included in the specifics of the body mechanics and duel hand motion. A simple yet effective way to handle a punch. Granted you lose the kick,...

That is fine should you choose to teach your students to omit the kick. But once they learn this methodology, wouldn't puting the kick back in be digressing? Isn't it more important to follow the theme of the Web Of Knowledge and teach the student to use distance first at this stage with the kick? It appears to me you are violating your own comment, forgetting what level you are teaching and examining the material from that perspective.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
There should also be the development of a combat mindeset and a "mean streak" starting from the day they walk through the door.

This quote brought to mind a conversation I had Benny "The Jet" Urquidez. I pointed out that he seemed like such a nice relaxed guy and asked if he was different when he was fighting professionally. I asked if he had to develop an attitude. He replied, " No, I fought out of love. Iwouldn't have shown my opponents respect if I didn't try as hard as I could during every fight." Benny is a role model for my children and I wish we could all approach life with the enthusiasm and joy that Benny projects.

Jeff

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

From this perspective understanding motion is a good first step, however once you transcend the superficial it becomes less and less important and is supplanted by structure principles over abstract motion.

I agree, but how do you get into any sort of advanced study without an understanding of basic principles and movement.

If the kick is executed properly it will set up the distance and torque for the right handsword coming from the hips as you pivot with substantial energy to bring finality to the circumstances.

That would provide necessary power, but the question is can a white belt make this work effectively with such a limited understanding of principles and stances?

Your blocking should be such that it doesn't matter (in this technique) whether it's straight or round.

"Should" is the key word.

Well now I think you're not being realistic. A person can't always have their legs apart ready for a confrontation. The real world doesn't work that way no matter how "aware" you are.

True, but how well do you think any technique is going to work starting from a straight legged, flat footed position. The goal should be able to recognize a situation before it presents itself. Very few attacks come straight out of the blue, in most cases their is some form of warning (verbal, non-verbal, etc.).

Because an extended outward block will anatomically only work as a check from a forward bow, and is not capable of thwarting significant energy from a substantial attack.

I'm about 5'9" 180lbs. and my outward block was "capable of thwarting" a punch from a guy who is a solid 250 lbs.

But once they learn this methodology, wouldn't puting the kick back in be digressing?

Only if you consider building a better base before inserting extra strikes a digression.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Doc
.

Because an extended outward block will anatomically only work as a check from a forward bow, and is not capable of thwarting significant energy from a substantial attack.

That's proper for what the level should be teaching. Remember it is the first level of techniques. You are attempting to impart certain principles.

I couldn't agree more with you here, at least if we're on the same page. A forward bow will not support the outward block from an oncoming attack of the left arm, on a diagonal or horizontal plane. The block is comprosised by a forward bow because it offers no lateral stability or inertial dampening. A neutral bow is perfectly suited to this attack, which is why SOD and Shielding Hammer are taught this way. In order to have lateral stability in the forward bow you would have to nullify the punch significantly by attacking your opponents centerline, a stop-hit basically.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Greggers69]

As this technique was explained to me, its also for a one two punch. Lets say someone throws a right punch and I go to a right inward block and to finish it with Delayed sword, Now while i have this in my mind and my oponent is fast and throws a left, so I can still finish my move and make the right outward block and it turns into sword of destruction. This is my opinion and nothing more:asian:

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Greggers69
As this technique was explained to me, its also for a one two punch. Lets say someone throws a right punch and I go to a right inward block and to finish it with Delayed sword, Now while i have this in my mind and my oponent is fast and throws a left, so I can still finish my move and make the right outward block and it turns into sword of destruction. This is my opinion and nothing more:asian:

Amazingly enough, the AK folks already have an answer to that dilemna, it's called Fatal Deviation.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Greggers69]

Yes but i havn't learned that tech yet. lol. Thanks:asian:

 

[Rob_Broad]

I started this thread almost a year ago and it took our normal kenpo fashion to disagree that long before anyone could even answer whether the the technique was accurate or not. I was sent an email of this technique to see where the student was picking up wrong information, and it was convoluted into who knows what kind of crap. No wonder American Kenpo is close to standing in its own grave, every body interprets everything to fit themselves. GET OVER IT!!!! A block should stop an on coming attack, and a strike should hurt the attacker strike, who cares if you polishe the next GM's shoe, skill should be measured measured on abilty not accessabilty.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I started this thread almost a year ago and it took our normal kenpo fashion to disagree that long before anyone could even answer whether the the technique was accurate or not. I was sent an email of this technique to see where the student was picking up wrong information, and it was convoluted into who knows what kind of crap. No wonder American Kenpo is close to standing in its own grave, every body interprets everything to fit themselves. GET OVER IT!!!! A block should stop an on coming attack, and a strike should hurt the attacker strike, who cares if you polishe the next GM's shoe, skill should be measured measured on abilty not accessabilty.

What the heck are you talking about?

 

[ob2c]

I wasn't here a year ago, so I'm going to plead innocense and try to answer the question(s), because they are good questions and they make me think about what I'm doing. So, here goes:

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
... explain to me why you would step back and close your center line only to open it back up for the kick and then close it again as you plant for the chop to the neck? ... So why do we teach a beginner to fluctuate the opening in their centerline? Why do we trouble them with learning how to manuever correctly from an attention position, to a RNB, to a cat stance, to a front snap kick, that is followed by MOG based chop that requires a student to effectively corkscrew back into a RNB to make use of the MOG, knowing full well that if they take to long they will likely eat another attack?

A begginer needs to learn to move. He's been surprised by an attack, so he moves back to create distance and closes his center to protect it. Since the attack was at the max limmit of the medium range, and he's created distance, he now needs to employ a long range weapon- a kick. The cat is preparatory to this counter attack. The kick will probably check the attackers depth and alter his height, so now the defender takes advantage of this to move in to a medium range attack and finish the attacker off.

Also what tools do you have in place to deal with the attack if it's a straight punch instead of the prescribed round house? If you are still in a natural stance when your opponent attacks, especially with something as direct and quick as a straight punch, your SCREWED

The left hand rising to the right shoulder is not just a check, it is a minor block. If you misread the attack, the left hand picks up the punch then the right hammers his arm targeting the radial nerve (ideally).

Even if you are quick enough to step back, the way that most people block leaves them vulnerable to the initial attack (i.e. not able to stop it), or due to their mechanics and body positioning, leaves them open for the left right combo.

The way you describe it here:

After the outward block if your hand pulls back towards your shoulder, even just a little, to facilitate the kick then you are doing something wrong.

I'd agree. But the way I was taught is that you only put that left check up momentarily. It circles down to a mid check position precisely to deal with another incoming attack and set up your body mechanics for the kick. Of course, if the attack is launched quickly the hand moves directly to deal with the attack instead of to a check. Regardless, the check should not be at your right shoulder/face when the kick is initiated.

It is true that there are better ways to deal with this attack. But, taken in the context of where it is taught in the carriculum and considering what it is meant to teach, it is a good, workable, logical technique. Every motion had a purpose, and went directly from point of origin to the prescribed point to fulfill that purpose. Absolutely no wasted motion.