Texas schools revive paddling

[grydth]

If there was a thread about a new city law allowing misbehaving dogs to be whipped in public, the screams would be deafening..... somehow its okay to do it to human children, though.

As others have noted, the potential for lawsuits and sexual abuse claims is significant. Can't we restore respect without physically beating children with a stick?

We've managed to raise 4 fine kids without taking a stick to any of them. I wonder about those who can't - - - is the problem with the kid or the parent?

If its violent tradition you all want, fine. I am restoring the practice of caning by gentlemen. Here's how it works: You strike my child with an object and I apply my walking stick to your head and knees.... and continue until I am satisfied I have your respect.

 

[Sukerkin]

And the leap to extremes begins ...

Those are not reasonable parallels to draw at all.

I am off to hit {imaginary} people with swords - what conclusions can be drawn from that? Violence has it's place and it's uses - as with fire, uncontrolled it is bad but it can be harnessed to produce much that is beneficial to all.

I shall withdraw from this discourse before a sense of annoyance flowers where reason should be.

 

[Bruno@MT]

In my house, it would be. My kids know that, should they get into sufficient trouble at school to be suspended, I will make their lives HELL during that suspension. That being said, I am not a proponent of corporal punishment. My kids have been spanked fewer than half a dozen times (together), and they are very well-behaved, especially in school. There are more effective disciplinary methods than hitting.

+1.

Yes, I acknowledge that there are instances where it is warranted. I have done so myself with my kids. But there is no need for it to be the default punishment. The problem is that it is the easiest punishment. Working with timeout works as well. but the problem is that in the beginning, you have to be firm and put them back if they walk (or crawl) away. It requires an effort on the part of the parents and it requires consistency. Beating is much easier. They annoy you and you beat them.

And I would not like it if other parties spanked my kids. Especially if it was done in private. Because you also open the door for the sadists to dole out punishment for no other purpose than their enjoyment. In Belgium, the majority of the schools were Catholic schools. Corporeal punishment was used to an unhealthy degree. And from the stories I heard from older people, it served more as a way for authority people to either vent their anger / frustration, or to satisfy their lust for inflicting pain.

But maybe the teachers in Texas are all upstanding pillars of society, every single one of them, who would not stoop to these levels, and who would be ever vigilant to keep out those who would do these things. And maybe, if I close my eyes and make a wish, there will be world peace.

 

[terryl965]

I understand where you are coming from, but I would be more ammenable to that viewpoint if Texas has school choice or a voucher system. It does not, as far as I know. So, if a parent does not want their child to go to a school where the kids get paddled, their choices are home schooling, paying thousands in tuition, or moving.

That is not true Carol, Texas will allow any parent to put there child on any school they have a choice. Every year people go to have there childern transfered into a different school as long as there is room it will be granted.

 

[grydth]

And the leap to extremes begins ...

Those are not reasonable parallels to draw at all.

I am off to hit {imaginary} people with swords - what conclusions can be drawn from that? Violence has it's place and it's uses - as with fire, uncontrolled it is bad but it can be harnessed to produce much that is beneficial to all.

I shall withdraw from this discourse before a sense of annoyance flowers where reason should be.

What, sir, is wrong with a "sense of annoyance"?

I, personally. hope that I annoy the piss out of this Forum each and every week.

I do not say that in any hateful or spiteful or malign sense whatsoever. But, Sukerkin, this world is slipping into Hell...... and I'd rather not go quietly. We cannot all be Caesars....but we can be Tribunes, by God.

We need to be annoyed, pushed out of the comfort zone, the box - - - at least made to re-examine why we are in that box, and why we stay.

This place exists to exchange ideas, to debate policy. What a boring place it would be if everyone sounded alike ..... mooo... bah ....agree ...thanks ....<yawn>

I would rather hate people, and have them hate me, than not know them at all.

Do you or I have all, or even any of the answers? Maybe not..... but someone who I make spit out the morning coffee, exclaim "That stupid little *&^%" and post back.... maybe that person.... or the next.... or the next.

So please.... if you are "annoyed", do not depart to slay <SAFE> imaginary people.

Stay here... and I challenge you......draw.

 

[Blade96]

Dont believe in cp.

Grew up with parents who got spanked in school. as a result and believing that it was right they did it to me. and my bro had copied them and started hitting me also.

It didnt do a thing to change my behavior. Nor did I respect them. in fact i hated and feared them growing up.

 

[Ken Morgan]

CP doesn’t generate respect, it generates fear.
A smack on the *** by a parent on the very rare occasion is their choice.
In the schools, the vast majority of children who get CP are poor children, from broken homes and are at high risk of dropping out. Does anyone really think that physical violence against them is going to make them a better person? Again I bring up the point again, if CP worked, we would be using it in prisons on our inmates.
In the kindergarten class I’ve been working in, it breaks your heart to see the poverty and abuse many of these kids experience daily. So what do we do? We ban teachers from giving kids a hug, but we let them beat the kids. **** that makes sense! I’ve had so many kids walk up to me out of the blue and give me hugs it amazed me.

 

[Empty Hands]

The problem is that physical punishments are applied as a one-size-fits-all solution. Kids aren't all one size. Some kids respond well to physical discipline. Others, it just hardens their will, makes them angry, and makes them lash out. Some kids respond well to non-physical methods, and again others don't.

I doubt the school system has the discernment to apply appropriate punishments to the appropriate individuals. Most parents can't even manage that, and they are the ones raising the kids in question.

 

[Sukerkin]

The last time we discussed this, the same problem was highlighted. There is a world of difference between discipline and random violence. I don't have a difficulty telling them apart and it is a puzzle how it seems such a cloudy issue.

The subject is the proper application of corporal punishment in schools to act as a deterrent for those who will not respond to other methods. Some methods also do not work in isolation and I think that CP falls under that category.

You (global meaning) have a society where children are the leaders and parents and those in authority are, it seems powerless to make sure that the new generations grow into something useful. Annecdotally, it was not always that way and has only become so since the use of physical sanctions were not only dropped but made illegal.

Hmm ... correlation does not equal causation but still ... I wonder ...

As I said, I am not getting further involved in this as intelligent people willfully not reaching what I consider intelligent solutions is a danger to my health.

 

[Makalakumu]

If there was a thread about a new city law allowing misbehaving dogs to be whipped in public, the screams would be deafening..... somehow its okay to do it to human children, though.

As others have noted, the potential for lawsuits and sexual abuse claims is significant. Can't we restore respect without physically beating children with a stick?

We've managed to raise 4 fine kids without taking a stick to any of them. I wonder about those who can't - - - is the problem with the kid or the parent?

If its violent tradition you all want, fine. I am restoring the practice of caning by gentlemen. Here's how it works: You strike my child with an object and I apply my walking stick to your head and knees.... and continue until I am satisfied I have your respect.

I am raising both of my children without striking them and both of them are well behaved in school. I personally don't want anyone laying a finger on my children and will react accordingly if they do.

Noting that, if a community decides to institute paddling at a school in my neighborhood, I would go to the school and speak my mind about the issue to those who cared to listen. If they still wanted to do it and I was one voice in the wilderness my choice would be to take my children out of that school and find another that doesn't paddle.

One of the issues we face as a country is that our schools are continually NOT doing what parents expect them to do. Our schools need parent input and they need to be teaching how the parents want them to teach. This is how we will change them from institutions of social engineering into institutions of learning. This is how we'll draw more parents into the picture and get them more involved.

Carol makes a good point about school choice. We need that too.

 

[Makalakumu]

CP doesn’t generate respect, it generates fear.
A smack on the *** by a parent on the very rare occasion is their choice.
In the schools, the vast majority of children who get CP are poor children, from broken homes and are at high risk of dropping out. Does anyone really think that physical violence against them is going to make them a better person? Again I bring up the point again, if CP worked, we would be using it in prisons on our inmates.
In the kindergarten class I’ve been working in, it breaks your heart to see the poverty and abuse many of these kids experience daily. So what do we do? We ban teachers from giving kids a hug, but we let them beat the kids. **** that makes sense! I’ve had so many kids walk up to me out of the blue and give me hugs it amazed me.

Absolutely, there are many occasions where it is just not appropriate. However, what if the community came to the PTA meetings at the school and continually told teachers and administrators that this is what they wanted?

 

[Makalakumu]

The last time we discussed this, the same problem was highlighted. There is a world of difference between discipline and random violence. I don't have a difficulty telling them apart and it is a puzzle how it seems such a cloudy issue.

The subject is the proper application of corporal punishment in schools to act as a deterrent for those who will not respond to other methods. Some methods also do not work in isolation and I think that CP falls under that category.

You (global meaning) have a society where children are the leaders and parents and those in authority are, it seems powerless to make sure that the new generations grow into something useful. Annecdotally, it was not always that way and has only become so since the use of physical sanctions were not only dropped but made illegal.

Hmm ... correlation does not equal causation but still ... I wonder ...

As I said, I am not getting further involved in this as intelligent people willfully not reaching what I consider intelligent solutions is a danger to my health.

Our society teaches children to be out of control. Turn off the TV. Throw out the video games. Get books and toys. Play outside.

The issue is bigger then the removal of CP as a form of discipline. I choose not to paddle my children out of a sense of consistency. In my mind, I can't teach people that violence is a last resort in Martial Arts and then smack my children for various infractions. That said, what right do I have to force that point of view on anyone?

I think that if our society respected each others opinions and learned to live with each other we'd probably turn the corner to becoming more sociable again.

 

[grydth]

The last time we discussed this, the same problem was highlighted. There is a world of difference between discipline and random violence. I don't have a difficulty telling them apart and it is a puzzle how it seems such a cloudy issue.

The subject is the proper application of corporal punishment in schools to act as a deterrent for those who will not respond to other methods. Some methods also do not work in isolation and I think that CP falls under that category.

You (global meaning) have a society where children are the leaders and parents and those in authority are, it seems powerless to make sure that the new generations grow into something useful. Annecdotally, it was not always that way and has only become so since the use of physical sanctions were not only dropped but made illegal.

Hmm ... correlation does not equal causation but still ... I wonder ...

As I said, I am not getting further involved in this as intelligent people willfully not reaching what I consider intelligent solutions is a danger to my health.

Simply because violence is state sanctioned does not make it legitimate or appropriate or beneficial.

People seeing things differently than I do makes them neither health hazards nor unintelligent.

Anecdotally, we have 4 children who are wonderful human beings without our having raised a hand, much less a stick, to them. Indeed, I have stressed that violence has no place in our household.... not for any purpose. If you want to tell my wife that she is not the unquestioned leader of the household, you'd best keep that katana handy.

When I was growing up, my father - one of the toughest men I ever knew - did not have to resort to hitting me. He did, however, make it quite clear to anyone who endangered me that their remaining existence would most likely be both brief and painful..... talk about what we've lost, well it isn't letting people paddle our kids, but rather too often it is the total commitment we should have to our kids, to include the willingness to protect them.

No, I do not differentiate between violence types as potentially applied to my children. I don't care who you are: an administrator with a paddle, a bishop with happy fingers, a paroled pederast, whatever.....touch my kids and I will cane the living snot out of you.

 

[dancingalone]

I understand where you are coming from, but I would be more ammenable to that viewpoint if Texas has school choice or a voucher system. It does not, as far as I know. So, if a parent does not want their child to go to a school where the kids get paddled, their choices are home schooling, paying thousands in tuition, or moving.

When I was in school, there was a handbook handed out at the beginning of the school year where corporal punishment was explained. The parent could opt out by specifying he/she preferred in school suspension for his/her child. A signed form from the handbook allowed you to do this and it also confirmed you had read and understood the policies.

My parents probably thought I needed the butt-whupping.

 

[Blade96]

when my niece starts walkin and she is close to something dangerous or touching things she shouldnt, I'd put a lock on my room door and physically stop her from touching the stove. But I wont hit her.

and I'd probably wanna cane my brother if he ever hit his own daughter. Lord, that's just wrong.

and reminds me of something stevebjj said - about people changing the shape of a hotdog so kids wont choke?

CP is that - they want an easy solution to a tough problem.

Problem is - they arent doing their ******* job as a parent. They have to actually TEACH a kid and pull em away from a stove and teach them how the correct way to pet a cat. Oh my. No, they think just strike and thats it.

Parenting is hard - oh noes. run away.

 

[Drac]

I am all in favor of CP..I was paddled myself a few times and it left an impression..My Father's attitude was if you get paddled at school, come home and tell me..If I think you deserved it you will get it again from me.If I think the school was wrong I will pay them a visit..The only time he visited the Jr High is when the Assistant Principal gave my brother 25 morning detentions for talking during a National Junior Honor Society assembly..

For the small handful here that actually take the time to teach and discipline your children, you are outnumbered 100 to 1 by the parents that don't do anything.I cannot even begin to relate the incidents when I was a LEO and had interactions with disruptive juveniles and their parents..I was basically called a liar because "My child wouldn't do that"..

 

[blindsage]

For the small handful here that actually take the time to teach and discipline your children, you are outnumbered 100 to 1 by the parents that don't do anything.I cannot even begin to relate the incidents when I was a LEO and had interactions with disruptive juveniles and their parents..I was basically called a liar because "My child wouldn't do that"..

So, the answer to that is to hit the children?

I'm not really sure that I understand the rationale that "I was spanked, and I turned out okay". My parents are divorced and I turned out okay, is that really the best situation for a child? Most people turn out relatively ok despite their childhood, that doesn't mean there isn't a better way to raise children. I was paddled in school a couple of times and my parents spanked me a few times growing up, so yes I'm familiar with the experience. But there is no way anyone will ever convince me that spanking a child or hitting them in anyway isn't just societally condoned violence against children. If children are out of control the parents are the ones to look act, engaging in violence against children is really not the most productive manner to resolve the problem. And if you feel the need to resort to raising a hand against your children (including spanking), then maybe it's time to stand back and look at your own behavior and what kind of example you're setting for your children. There are no truly bad children, but there are plenty of bad parents as well as plenty of well-meaning parents with poor parenting skills.

 

[Bruno@MT]

For the small handful here that actually take the time to teach and discipline your children, you are outnumbered 100 to 1 by the parents that don't do anything.I cannot even begin to relate the incidents when I was a LEO and had interactions with disruptive juveniles and their parents..I was basically called a liar because "My child wouldn't do that"..

Trust me, I know where you are coming from.
I am not like that. I demand discipline, and I get it. Even other people's kids behave better around me than they do around their parents. I've found that that just saying 'this is not right. we don't do those things here' can be an eye opener for some kids.

that said, if I belong to the 1 in 100 (and I think I do. I'll certainly be the last to say that my daughter wouldn't do something) this means that the majority of the teachers will be drawn from among those other 99. Meaning that a lot of kids would be cp'ed for the wrong reasons, or in a wrong way, no?

 

[Drac]

\ I was paddled in school a couple of times and my parents spanked me a few times growing up, so yes I'm familiar with the experience. But there is no way anyone will ever convince me that spanking a child or hitting them in anyway isn't just societally condoned violence against children. If children are out of control the parents are the ones to look act, engaging in violence against children is really not the most productive manner to resolve the problem. And if you feel the need to resort to raising a hand against your children (including spanking), then maybe it's time to stand back and look at your own behavior and what kind of example you're setting for your children. There are no truly bad children, but there are plenty of bad parents as well as plenty of well-meaning parents with poor parenting skills.

So then WHAT do you suggest they do?? Talking does not work..No bad children?? Thank you Father Flanagan..There are a lot of kids out of control and the parents dont do **** about it because they refuse to believe that their child would act up..I have personally seen a child out of control and the Mothers attempt to start a corrective dialog ignored..The same child was taken to the mens room where the Father and applied a swift hand across their backside and the disruptive behavior ceased..

 

[Drac]

Trust me, I know where you are coming from.
I am not like that. I demand discipline, and I get it. Even other people's kids behave better around me than they do around their parents. I've found that that just saying 'this is not right. we don't do those things here' can be an eye opener for some kids.

That is a rare gift you have..a young disruptive child was visiting our dojang as his sister was training despite his Father sitting next to him and telling him that Master Steve and I were in charge and must be listened to and my own version of "we don't do those things here" said in my best cop voice I was ignored.. The parents threats to take away every privledge he had and was ignored.My Father would have taken me outside and gave me a good swat..They just kept attempting to talk him out of acting up..I pity his teachers..

that said, if I belong to the 1 in 100 (and I think I do. I'll certainly be the last to say that my daughter wouldn't do something) this means that the majority of the teachers will be drawn from among those other 99. Meaning that a lot of kids would be cp'ed for the wrong reasons, or in a wrong way, no?

Most of the ones CP's including me were caught red handed and the old paddle was applied to the backside, never anywhere else and never with a hand..