testing for black belt.

[azmyth]

lets say that I studied TKD for about 8 years now.. on and off..
started when I was 14.. stopped at high rank green belt because the school closed.

started up again later at a different school under the same style.. kept my rank.. made it to high rank blue. before this time the instructor doubled the amount of belts, and kept everyone at rank considerably longer than i felt was needed. I got burned out, and it seemed like his school was turning into more of a daycare than a martial arts studio. Eventually i found out that he would stop class to sell customers drugs that would clean ur system in a few hours if u had taken any sort of harmful drug.. so you could pass drug tests. I felt like this was immoral of a place preaching health and fitness.

I looked around for another school.. the only ITF schools were over an hr away.. all that was left was an ATA school and a Karate/arnis/jujitsu school that was taught by my original instructor whom I had always liked. He'd gotten away fromTKD and from the look of everything he had alot of people my age, and was really doing something different.

My problem.. 8 years down the drain and still no black belt in TKD to show for it. I decided to worry about that later, and joined the karate school. So far so good.. really enjoying it.. the instructor knows his stuff.

I talked a friend of mine who is 2nd degree in TKD to come work out with me doing Karate, and one night I brought up my dilemma to my instructor. He suggested that I continue to work on the forms, and moves on my own.. and when I felt I was ready to test for the next rank.. my friend the 2nd degree could do it, and my instructor would give me the rank since he is a 5th degree in TKD himself even though he doesn't teach it anymore.

does this sound ok? the fact that the current art I am in is VERY similar to TKD will actually help me move alot faster than if I was going strictly to a TKD school, plus me and my 2nd degree friend are together all the time anyway.. the only techniques I don't know up to black belt are the forms.. the kicks and punches are all the same.. once you get to close to red belt.. all that changes is the amount of times u kick.. for example.. triple side kick vs. single. when I stopped this last time, I was about to test for red belt.. but I just couldn't take it any longer...

I have high rank red, rec. black, and then 1st degree.

thoughts?

 

[Taijiguy]

Just worry about getting better and improving your skills as much as you can. All this stuff about ranking will drive you mad, I think. If you just worrying about improving, then the "ranks" will come naturally assuming the ranks are a reflection of skill and not just some political/ego based money making bs.

 

[azmyth]

well, of course its to improve my ability and everything.. but it kind of makes sense to have the rank to go along with it...

in a tournament, they aren't gonna care about my ability when they place me in a division.. they are gonna care about the color of my belt.

not real fair to the beginning red belts, when they have to go up against a guy whose being doing this for 8 years.. only stuck in the division due to the color of his belt.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Just another point of view. On the street is where it counts....!

You will earn that rank and look back and realize....it was not color that makes you...but your skills.

You will also find out your skills will be much better than those of higher ranks around you! ....and it doesn't matter.

Today many schools put out alot of so call "Black Belts".....how many can suvivied a real street fight?

Can you? ..............Aloha

 

[terryl965]

Well here is your delima all kicks and punches are not the same. How are you and your friend going to fine tune your skills if you have no formal head Instructor there to correct what you are doing wrong. My advice would be find a qualify instructor and get back to training the right way. I can personally say any instructor that would sign another person certificate is not an instructor of integrity and honor.

 

[Kacey]

I'm with Terry on this one. The requirements may be similar - but that doesn't make them identical.

Correct me if I'm wrong - but it sounds like you're saying you've done the time, and now you want the belt. Black belt is a significant achievement, true - but it is merely a signpost on the way to more significant endeavors. If you are enjoying what you're doing now, continue and get your black belt in that - but unless you're training in TKD, it's hard for me to see how you could earn a black belt in it - and do you really want a belt you were given, instead of a belt you earned?

 

[MJS]

lets say that I studied TKD for about 8 years now.. on and off..
started when I was 14.. stopped at high rank green belt because the school closed.

started up again later at a different school under the same style.. kept my rank.. made it to high rank blue. before this time the instructor doubled the amount of belts, and kept everyone at rank considerably longer than i felt was needed. I got burned out, and it seemed like his school was turning into more of a daycare than a martial arts studio. Eventually i found out that he would stop class to sell customers drugs that would clean ur system in a few hours if u had taken any sort of harmful drug.. so you could pass drug tests. I felt like this was immoral of a place preaching health and fitness.

I looked around for another school.. the only ITF schools were over an hr away.. all that was left was an ATA school and a Karate/arnis/jujitsu school that was taught by my original instructor whom I had always liked. He'd gotten away fromTKD and from the look of everything he had alot of people my age, and was really doing something different.

My problem.. 8 years down the drain and still no black belt in TKD to show for it. I decided to worry about that later, and joined the karate school. So far so good.. really enjoying it.. the instructor knows his stuff.

I talked a friend of mine who is 2nd degree in TKD to come work out with me doing Karate, and one night I brought up my dilemma to my instructor. He suggested that I continue to work on the forms, and moves on my own.. and when I felt I was ready to test for the next rank.. my friend the 2nd degree could do it, and my instructor would give me the rank since he is a 5th degree in TKD himself even though he doesn't teach it anymore.

does this sound ok? the fact that the current art I am in is VERY similar to TKD will actually help me move alot faster than if I was going strictly to a TKD school, plus me and my 2nd degree friend are together all the time anyway.. the only techniques I don't know up to black belt are the forms.. the kicks and punches are all the same.. once you get to close to red belt.. all that changes is the amount of times u kick.. for example.. triple side kick vs. single. when I stopped this last time, I was about to test for red belt.. but I just couldn't take it any longer...

I have high rank red, rec. black, and then 1st degree.

thoughts?

IMHO, if you don't know all of the requirements, for the black belt rank, I'd say it would be wrong to test. You seem to have found a school that you like. Keep training hard, and when the time is right, I'm sure your instructor will rank you in the art that he teaches.

Mike

 

[azmyth]

maybe i worded it wrong...

my friend is a 2nd degree black belt, and has taught classes before at the school me and him both attended.. he knows TKD in and out. He will fill the gaps of what I have left. I just meant that due to what I am doing now being similar to TKD in many ways... picking back up the finesse of TKD will be much easier than it would be without it.

My instructor is a 5th degree black belt in TKD and thats where his roots come from. If I said he would sign my certificate.. my instructor will not sign anything that he was not present or a part of. meaning, he would be present to help test me, and even offered that I do it at our school. I was his student for 2 years when he DID teach TKD.. he knows his stuff and I respect him.

I'm in no way saying "Hey, I've been training for 8 years that gives me the right to have a black belt".. I'm saying that I have trained and trained on everything that black belts have to learn other than the forms.. for a LONG time. I would never ask to be given a black belt, unless I earn it. I don't see the difference in how your trained or tested as long as you know what your doing in the end. I'd rather be trained by a white belt who knows what he's doing than a 9th degree black belt who ordered it from century and sewed yellow stripes on it.

I was just making sure there was no sanctioning law that says you have to be enrolled in a school to be ranked in an art, as long as you have instructors who can teach you what you need to know.. that should be sufficient enough imo.

If you got the impression that I am planning on just having them hand me a black belt.. that was the wrong one. I intend to progress through the rest of the belts just as if i was attending class.. just this time I will have private instruction.

 

[Taijiguy]

well, of course its to improve my ability and everything.. but it kind of makes sense to have the rank to go along with it...

in a tournament, they aren't gonna care about my ability when they place me in a division.. they are gonna care about the color of my belt.

not real fair to the beginning red belts, when they have to go up against a guy whose being doing this for 8 years.. only stuck in the division due to the color of his belt.

So you can't just put yourself into a black belt/advanced division in tae kwon do like you can in karate and kungfu tournaments? (sorry, I'm a little ignorant on sport TKD rules and regulations). If you like competition, you could always take part in open competition and take up something like san shou, kickboxing, mma, karate, etc. You might end up having to pick up some additional skills somewhere, but at least you would get to use your TKD along with it There's lots of different hard contact sport fighting venues out there where whether or not someone signed your certificate isn't going to be a problem.

 

[azmyth]

yeah, most open point sparring contests have different belt divisions.

I'm a white belt in my new art.. and we sparred last night in class. I know what your saying "they let a white belt spar?". I may be a white belt as far as learning some of the new stuff, thats different for this art, but I am very much not new to sparring. That's actually where I shine the most.

I had 4 matches.. 1 vs. a blue belt (5 ranks higher than me) 2 vs. purple belts (4 ranks higher) and 1 vs. my instructor.. I was dominant in all of them except the one vs. my instructor.

now, we have a tournament in a month... and its going to be very unfair for me to be put in the same division with yellow and white belts.. people who ARE beginners, who have never trained before.

Of course this is a school tournament, so I will wear whatever rank I have in those.. and obviously for outside tourneys.. I will wear whatever I am the highest rank in. In this case TKD...

 

[ejaazi]

lets say that I studied TKD for about 8 years now.. on and off..
started when I was 14.. stopped at high rank green belt because the school closed.

started up again later at a different school under the same style.. kept my rank.. made it to high rank blue. before this time the instructor doubled the amount of belts, and kept everyone at rank considerably longer than i felt was needed. I got burned out, and it seemed like his school was turning into more of a daycare than a martial arts studio. Eventually i found out that he would stop class to sell customers drugs that would clean ur system in a few hours if u had taken any sort of harmful drug.. so you could pass drug tests. I felt like this was immoral of a place preaching health and fitness.

I looked around for another school.. the only ITF schools were over an hr away.. all that was left was an ATA school and a Karate/arnis/jujitsu school that was taught by my original instructor whom I had always liked. He'd gotten away fromTKD and from the look of everything he had alot of people my age, and was really doing something different.

My problem.. 8 years down the drain and still no black belt in TKD to show for it. I decided to worry about that later, and joined the karate school. So far so good.. really enjoying it.. the instructor knows his stuff.

I talked a friend of mine who is 2nd degree in TKD to come work out with me doing Karate, and one night I brought up my dilemma to my instructor. He suggested that I continue to work on the forms, and moves on my own.. and when I felt I was ready to test for the next rank.. my friend the 2nd degree could do it, and my instructor would give me the rank since he is a 5th degree in TKD himself even though he doesn't teach it anymore.

does this sound ok? the fact that the current art I am in is VERY similar to TKD will actually help me move alot faster than if I was going strictly to a TKD school, plus me and my 2nd degree friend are together all the time anyway.. the only techniques I don't know up to black belt are the forms.. the kicks and punches are all the same.. once you get to close to red belt.. all that changes is the amount of times u kick.. for example.. triple side kick vs. single. when I stopped this last time, I was about to test for red belt.. but I just couldn't take it any longer...

I have high rank red, rec. black, and then 1st degree.

thoughts?

Rank doesn't really matter. Just keep training and become the best that you can. If you train long enough, you will come across a few black belts who can't even handle you. It'll make you wonder how they got that rank and also make you realize that it doesn't really matter that they did.

 

[the kenpo kid]

martail arts is not just about black blets and who has one and who does not martail arts are inproveing your self my sesai used to blets are good for one thing holding up your pants. its the qulaity of what you know,not the quantly.

 

[azmyth]

right, I understand that its not the color of the belt that matters.. it is def. what you know.. sparring the other night proves that... but, maybe some of u guys haven't competed in open or invitational point sparring tournaments before..

but in that facet. the color of your belt does matter, and that may be stupid.. but the color of the belt is the only thing the judges and people putting on the tourney have to determine what division you fit into. They can't say "Sir, how good are you?" The belt color tells them what level of advancement you are at, so they know where to place you. It still has nothing to do with your skill however.. because like you have mentioned.. there are black belts that may know there stuff, but just aren't good sparrers.

But in a tournament, the only real fair way to divide people up is by belts. Thats basically what I am getting at.. I'm wanting to get into competition, and I don't want to win alot in the color belt divisions just because I'm in the wrong division due to my belts color. Its not fair to those who truly are just starting out, to have some guy who outskills them by a few years to come in a dominate everyone because of a flaw in the way the system works.

I was in that situation once before.. its not very fun. I was yellow belt in TKD, and there was a guy going against us who had quit for a while, and when he started back.. he started at a new school and they didn't let him keep his rank which was 1st degree black. He was yellow belt as well.. needless to say, those of us who really were "beginners" as yellow belt suggests.. got owned.

other than tournament competition.. I agree with you all belts mean nothing.

 

[Tez3]

right, I understand that its not the color of the belt that matters.. it is def. what you know.. sparring the other night proves that... but, maybe some of u guys haven't competed in open or invitational point sparring tournaments before..

but in that facet. the color of your belt does matter, and that may be stupid.. but the color of the belt is the only thing the judges and people putting on the tourney have to determine what division you fit into. They can't say "Sir, how good are you?" The belt color tells them what level of advancement you are at, so they know where to place you. It still has nothing to do with your skill however.. because like you have mentioned.. there are black belts that may know there stuff, but just aren't good sparrers.

But in a tournament, the only real fair way to divide people up is by belts. Thats basically what I am getting at.. I'm wanting to get into competition, and I don't want to win alot in the color belt divisions just because I'm in the wrong division due to my belts color. Its not fair to those who truly are just starting out, to have some guy who outskills them by a few years to come in a dominate everyone because of a flaw in the way the system works.

I was in that situation once before.. its not very fun. I was yellow belt in TKD, and there was a guy going against us who had quit for a while, and when he started back.. he started at a new school and they didn't let him keep his rank which was 1st degree black. He was yellow belt as well.. needless to say, those of us who really were "beginners" as yellow belt suggests.. got owned.

other than tournament competition.. I agree with you all belts mean nothing.

I've seen this happen too. When I was doing Wado one of the 2nd Dan instructors (he'd also fought internationally) fell out with the chief instructor and went across to TKD where he was a yellow belt, they entered him into various sparring comps where he demolished every opponent ( and probably thoroughly demoralised them), this happened all the way through till he graded for his black belt. I've seen the videos and they aren't, to be honest, anything to be proud of. Spinning roundhouse KO's to the heads of beginners when you've fought in the World Championships are really not on.

Azmyth, I don't suppose you want to go into MMA do you lol? My instructor will actually award a black belt to a fighter who he believes deserves it, he says it's the 'old' way. It's the amount of training, effort, atittude, sportmanship and fighting spirit the belt is awarded for not winning. It's a rare thing though. I commend your feelings though, it would be easy for you to accumulate loads of trophies by fighting in the lower grade categories, the fact you don't want to is a great credit to you!

 

[azmyth]

nah, my wife would have none of that.. lol

just point sparring.

but you described my point to a T..

I'm fairly sure the students in my class the other night, that I dominated was questioning their training when they were easily beaten by a white belt. luckily they were all warned by my instructor that I had previous martial arts as well as sparring experience. I think they knew anyway, when they saw I already had my own nice set of sparring gear.. but not everyone would know and it would be demoralizing for them to lose to what should be considered a beginner.

I believe ranks should be given based on skill not so much on "time spent". Alot of schools have set amounts of time that you have to stay a rank.. no matter whether you know the material or not. To me thats just a way to keep you going longer.. when in reality.. if you really enjoy what your doing.. it doesn't matter if your black belt or white belt.. you'll keep going for as long as its interesting, and your getting something out of it.

 

[009abz]

i believe to reach your black belt you should be able to fight two people and win other wise your not good enogh to teach others self defence or anything else.I do tkd have black belt after 7 years and in karate i got a orange belt and just started 3 month ago

 

[009abz]

another thing lots of instructors give belts away to their students when they complete a pattern but i think thats wrong i think they they should earn the belt by deafeting someone who has the belt their after

 

[Kacey]

i believe to reach your black belt you should be able to fight two people and win other wise your not good enogh to teach others self defence or anything else.I do tkd have black belt after 7 years and in karate i got a orange belt and just started 3 month ago

another thing lots of instructors give belts away to their students when they complete a pattern but i think thats wrong i think they they should earn the belt by deafeting someone who has the belt their after

While I agree that belts should be earned, I see no purpose in fights to defeat of an opponent; at lower ranks that is incredibly dangerous, as students do not have the control to strike and not unintentionally maim, especially in a fight of that level of importance, and at higher ranks, students should be able to demonstrate the ability to pull a strike at the point where it would have caused injury had the point of focus been moved slightly farther into the target - a much more difficult skill than just "defeating" an opponent; any untrained person can beat away on someone smaller/weaker/younger/more fearful/less aggressive/etc. until the other person is defeated - that requires no skill.

Defeating a less-skilled opponent shows that you do not have the control or compassion necessary to be a well-rounded martial artist, and beating up someone who cannot defend themselves against you is the definition of a bully; being defeated by a more skilled opponent carries no negative connotation or onus for one defeated. There will always be someone faster, stronger, younger, in better shape, better trained, who knows the one technique you don't that allows your opponent to defeat you. To believe otherwise shows that you are, at best, a fighter, but not a martial artist.

 

[Taijiguy]

But in a tournament, the only real fair way to divide people up is by belts. Thats basically what I am getting at.. I'm wanting to get into competition, and I don't want to win alot in the color belt divisions just because I'm in the wrong division due to my belts color. Its not fair to those who truly are just starting out, to have some guy who outskills them by a few years to come in a dominate everyone because of a flaw in the way the system works.

If you're doing open tournaments, and you dominate those at your level consistently, there's nothing wrong with going up to a higher division. Belt levels really only are general guidelines in these things considering different schools have different belt systems and different amount of experience for black belt. Heck, some of us (particularly the kungfu guys) don't have belt systems at all The only thing you have to make sure of is if you're personally ready because you can't go back once you've started competing as a black belt (if you're competing in circuits where people will recognize you ). Usually if it's an open tournament 3 or 4 years of solid experience is a good gauge of whether you're ready for black belt division. Anyway, I think you are winning first place all the time in the brown belt/intermediate category, it really wouldn't be fair to stay in that division regardless of what color belt you're wearing.