Time-in-grade requirements and prior experience, catch-up mechanics

[JR 137]

If you want rank in our school, train in our school. Exceptions made only when students come from a recognized and respected dojo in our style, and even then, the student must meet our requirements for promotion. Outside training in other styles is great and we welcome it, but it still doesn't count towards promotion.

I see both sides to this mentality, having gone from one organization to another that share around 90% of the syllabus up to and including 1st dan. I took an almost 15 year break, so that obviously has to be accounted for...

I was less that 2 months away from testing for nidan when I left my school to go to grad school. I was invited to test and was preparing when I got an offer 5 hours away. I met my now wife, started a career, relocated twice, had children, etc. Life got in the way and I have zero regrets.

15 years later, I’m back home and actually have time to train again. My former teacher moved his dojo an hour away, and I find a great dojo. They both had their initial teacher in common, and my original organization was started by two people who left my current organization.

Stepping on the floor 15 years later, my teacher and I were shocked at how much I retained. I could demonstrate practically the entire syllabus for the rank I earned previously. I was a bit rusty, my timing was off, and my flexibility was shot (still is 4 years later though, and it ain’t coming back at 42 vs 25). Within about 3-4 months I was hanging with the brown belts.

I started at white belt. I was double promoted my first two tests, but that was it. I didn’t care about rank, and I still don’t. It held me back a little bit early on when I was waiting for a specific rank to start all out sparring, but I didn’t mind much because I knew 2 things - it would come soon enough, and I was working on stuff which would make me better anyway. I was allowed to do stuff like kata that I already knew and could do with minimal correction. It wasn’t ever like “you can’t do that; that’s a brown belt kata and you’re a white belt.”

Other than the two double promotions early on, I spent the required minimum time in grade for every belt, minus a few classes if the test didn’t exactly line up (ie I was at say 55 classes attended instead of minimum 60 required for promotion).

None of it bothered me at all. And it’s the way I prefer it. I’m getting better. I’m better now than I ever was previously. I don’t need a belt around my waist to remind me of my alleged abilities nor to motivate me. Whenever I was promoted and focusing on that part of the curriculum, I never had the “been there, done that, I’m bored and want to learn something new” mentality. I always thought it was time to really sharpen that rank’s material. I always felt and saw improvement with every promotion (where I was at day one of that rank vs my next test).

But on the flip side, going through it, I could see it potentially bothering others. I could see people thinking they’re good enough to have a rank several ahead of where they are. I thought that but didn’t care. I could see people thinking they’re better than people above them. I thought that but didn’t care what anyone else was doing. I could see people thinking they’re being held back for financial reasons. Not true where I am, as it’s a barely break-even dojo and dirt cheap.

Ego isn’t the all evil thing we MAists make it out to be. Some ego is a good thing. Pride is probably a better word here though. Too much is counterproductive, but so is too much of anything else.

I can empathize with people who hold rank as something important and want to be where they think they should be. I don’t care much about it, having been there done that, but I’m not everyone else nor anyone else. If someone thinks they’re not progressing quickly enough and it really bothers them, they should find a place where they’re happy. They may or may not find it though.

If I can get rid of this back issue and get into the dojo soon enough, I’ll most likely test for shodan around September. I’ll really like that. Not for the rank, but for the preparation and the challenge of the test itself. Then it’ll be back to normal again.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

A student moved to our area from another, where he had trained up to nidan. Same style of karate, well-regarded school and instructor our sensei knew personally. He wore his black belt. He knew our curriculum, but did parts of it differently. Not uncommon. After training with us for several years, he had to make a decision. Modify his techniques to match ours and be promoted, or stay as he was. We like and respect him. But our standards are our standards.

Another student came to us from the same style, but had not trained since his teens, when he was an ikkyu. That was 30 years ago. He was offered the choice to continue wearing his brown belt or to start over, and he chose to start over with white. He retains some previous knowledge and I'm confident he will advance quickly.

In both cases, future promotion is based on our standards. Sensei can do as he wishes, he is kudan and hanshi. However, the basic requirements remain.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

And I hope your back issue clears up.

 

[DaveB]

This has kind of come up in a discussion in the Taekwondo forum, about someone transferring from a KKW school to an ATA school and how long it would take to "catch up" to their KKW rank. It got me thinking about a broader picture. Maybe going from KKW to ATA, but also maybe going from TKD to Karate, or something even bigger.

For the sake of this discussion, we'll use "Art 1" and "Art 2" as the arts we're talking about.

• Art 1 can be any art at all. It may or may not have a rank system.
  
  
• Art 2 is an art with a rank system, (i.e. belts) where the curriculum is expanded as you go up in rank. Someone in the white belt level will be doing the basic forms, techniques, and drills, while the people at the higher ranks will be learning advanced techniques, more complicated forms, higher resistance drills, and will have more freedom in sparring.
  
  Art 2 has time-in-grade requirements for testing for new belts, where you must be at one rank for a period of time before going on to the next belt. (As an example, my school does tests every 2 months if you're ready, but red belts have to wait at least 4 months, and black belts have to wait 1 year per current degree in order to qualify for the next degree - i.e. 2 years to go from 2nd to 3rd, 3 years to go from 3rd to 4th).

Someone with several years experience in Art 1 may be comfortable with starting over as a white belt in Art 2, but may quickly become frustrated if they already have much of the muscle memory and coordination the white belt curriculum is designed to teach, and have to wait until they are a green belt or a red belt to feel like they're learning anything.

Even if they don't know the forms and don't know the specific techniques, someone with a lot of experience in one art may pick up the techniques and patterns a lot faster than someone else. In my case, as a 3rd Dan in KKW Taekwondo, I imagine I'd pick up the forms and test requirements in an ATA school or Shotokan school a lot faster than I would have as a white belt, and definitely a lot faster than someone my age coming in off the street with no experience. (The hardest part for me would be to change the techniques that are done different at the new school).

And I've seen this with students that come to our school. Even though we're KKW, we do different forms from most KKW schools. But students who come in as green belts or red belts usually learn our forms pretty quick. We even just had a couple kids come in from a Shotokan school and they seem to be adapting pretty well at the same rank (which is why I made the assumption that I could go there and quickly assimilate).

Now, I'm not saying that I should just go to these schools and be handed a 3rd-degree black belt to complement my KKW certification.

However, I'd hate to move and go to a karate school and have to progress at the same rate a complete a newbie would. I would want to feel like my 9 years experience in Taekwondo would give me some good will towards time-in-grade requirements. For example, if I start as a white belt:

• If the school has scheduled tests, allow me to do private tests faster than those scheduled tests
• Allow me to do double or triple tests as I learn the forms
• If the school has tests scheduled every quarter, but requires 6 months between certain tests, allow me to test every quarter

Now, I'm not saying I should pass these tests unless I meet the requirements. I'm also not saying I would 100% be able to test like this. The goal would be a compromise where I still have to learn the art the way the new school wants me to and where I would have to progress, but where I could do so and catch up to where I was before.

In this case, with it being an art similar to what I've taken before, what I would prefer to do is to start as the highest colored belt before black belt, and learn the curriculum from there until I could test for my black belt. At that point, follow the first or third option above, allow me to test when I'm ready until I can catch up in rank.

Caveat 2: This is from my perspective.

I realize this is a fairly selfish ask, because it is about my goal to achieve the same rank again. It is entirely possible that the school could want me to start over so I ingrain things their way, and depending on how well I feel that's implemented I might go along with it. What I'm looking for is some compromise between "I'm a 3rd degree" and "not in our art, you're not."

Caveat 3: This hypothetical assumes I can quickly assimilate to the new art.

I specifically mentioned a few arts I think I could do this with. I do not think I could do this with regard to something like Judo or BJJ. In those cases, I would definitely have to start as a white belt. In fact, that's what I've done with Hapkido at the same school I take TKD, and I definitely haven't rushed HKD.

Caveat 4: This assumes the previous art had a ranking system.

What if I took boxing or wrestling for 10 years before moving to Karate or Judo? In that case, I couldn't test into the same belt I had before, but I might have a wealth of knowledge similar to a 2nd or 3rd degree black belt, if the art did have belts. In this case, I'd still want to be accelerated until I found myself at a point where the content was challenging. (Going back to Caveat 2 about it being a selfish ask).

Caveat 5: This is all hypothetical for me.

I'm not moving, and I have no plans to leave my school and go to another. If I did, it would be to fill in the gaps in what I already know, (i.e. I'm good at kicks and will be good at standing grappling, so maybe something dealing more with punches or ground-fighting). In those cases, we'll go back to Caveat 3.

This was more of a thought experiment on my part, that if I moved or if I had to change schools, how would I want to approach it, and what kind of a deal would I want to make with the master of the new school to allow me to train techniques at the level of advancement that best fits my needs.

I understand though for a lot of people this is not a hypothetical, either they're a student that has to change schools for one reason or another; or they're the master of a school that has experienced students coming in.

So I post this not for myself, but because I want to hear from these groups of people. What was your ask when you moved schools, and how well did that work out for you? Or if you get students that say "I have 6 years in this" or "I'm a 2nd degree black belt in that", how do you place them into your rank structure?

Having experience in both, I would put most of the KKW Taekwondo Black belts I've met at mid kyu (half way to black) level in Shotokan, them have them grade normally with the possibility of double grading if they adapt well.

I think I'd do the same in reverse to. The reason is simply that though they both could superficially perform many of the same techniques, each style has an emphasis tjat takes time and repetion to internalise.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I see both sides to this mentality, having gone from one organization to another that share around 90% of the syllabus up to and including 1st dan. I took an almost 15 year break, so that obviously has to be accounted for...

I was less that 2 months away from testing for nidan when I left my school to go to grad school. I was invited to test and was preparing when I got an offer 5 hours away. I met my now wife, started a career, relocated twice, had children, etc. Life got in the way and I have zero regrets.

15 years later, I’m back home and actually have time to train again. My former teacher moved his dojo an hour away, and I find a great dojo. They both had their initial teacher in common, and my original organization was started by two people who left my current organization.

Stepping on the floor 15 years later, my teacher and I were shocked at how much I retained. I could demonstrate practically the entire syllabus for the rank I earned previously. I was a bit rusty, my timing was off, and my flexibility was shot (still is 4 years later though, and it ain’t coming back at 42 vs 25). Within about 3-4 months I was hanging with the brown belts.

I started at white belt. I was double promoted my first two tests, but that was it. I didn’t care about rank, and I still don’t. It held me back a little bit early on when I was waiting for a specific rank to start all out sparring, but I didn’t mind much because I knew 2 things - it would come soon enough, and I was working on stuff which would make me better anyway. I was allowed to do stuff like kata that I already knew and could do with minimal correction. It wasn’t ever like “you can’t do that; that’s a brown belt kata and you’re a white belt.”

Other than the two double promotions early on, I spent the required minimum time in grade for every belt, minus a few classes if the test didn’t exactly line up (ie I was at say 55 classes attended instead of minimum 60 required for promotion).

None of it bothered me at all. And it’s the way I prefer it. I’m getting better. I’m better now than I ever was previously. I don’t need a belt around my waist to remind me of my alleged abilities nor to motivate me. Whenever I was promoted and focusing on that part of the curriculum, I never had the “been there, done that, I’m bored and want to learn something new” mentality. I always thought it was time to really sharpen that rank’s material. I always felt and saw improvement with every promotion (where I was at day one of that rank vs my next test).

But on the flip side, going through it, I could see it potentially bothering others. I could see people thinking they’re good enough to have a rank several ahead of where they are. I thought that but didn’t care. I could see people thinking they’re better than people above them. I thought that but didn’t care what anyone else was doing. I could see people thinking they’re being held back for financial reasons. Not true where I am, as it’s a barely break-even dojo and dirt cheap.

Ego isn’t the all evil thing we MAists make it out to be. Some ego is a good thing. Pride is probably a better word here though. Too much is counterproductive, but so is too much of anything else.

I can empathize with people who hold rank as something important and want to be where they think they should be. I don’t care much about it, having been there done that, but I’m not everyone else nor anyone else. If someone thinks they’re not progressing quickly enough and it really bothers them, they should find a place where they’re happy. They may or may not find it though.

If I can get rid of this back issue and get into the dojo soon enough, I’ll most likely test for shodan around September. I’ll really like that. Not for the rank, but for the preparation and the challenge of the test itself. Then it’ll be back to normal again.

You're actually a great example of what I was trying to suggest. Some slow (following the guidelines), some fast (double promotions), as best fits the student within the context of that school. And adjusting the guidelines where it makes sense (55/60 classes? Fine, if you can easily pass the test.).

 

[skribs123 143]

Ego isn’t the all evil thing we MAists make it out to be. Some ego is a good thing. Pride is probably a better word here though. Too much is counterproductive, but so is too much of anything else.

There's a fine line between confidence and arrogance.

 

[JR 137]

And I hope your back issue clears up.

Thanks for the well wishes.

As far as your guy with his decision to adapt to your teacher’s variations/emphasis/whatever you want to call it, I agree 100%. If your teacher is going to promote him, he must meet all your teacher’s standards. Being ranked elsewhere doesn’t mean anything when your teacher’s going to promote anyone. If he doesn’t want to change his approach to the curriculum, that’s his business and I get it; if he wants your teacher to issue him a rank, he’s got to meet his standards for that rank. No one should issue rank according to someone else’s standards, unless of course they’re issuing it according to someone who they are required to answer to’s standards.

 

[JR 137]

You're actually a great example of what I was trying to suggest. Some slow (following the guidelines), some fast (double promotions), as best fits the student within the context of that school. And adjusting the guidelines where it makes sense (55/60 classes? Fine, if you can easily pass the test.).

Being in an organization, there’s people my teacher has to answer to. My teacher’s been around long enough to be left alone, as he’s proven he knows what he’s doing over the years.

How’s he held accountable regarding promotions? Simple: he’s there when his students are testing for dan ranks at honbu (headquarters dojo) by Kaicho (head of the organization). Send a few people who are suspect, and he’ll get spoken to very matter of factly. He hasn’t had a single person fail in his 30 years, but others have. And other CIs have been pulled aside and spoken to about bringing people who aren’t ready.

My teacher can do whatever he wants. He could’ve had me tested for shodan the day after I signed up (if the test was offered that day). And my performance would’ve reflected on him, good or bad. That’s accountability.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Being in an organization, there’s people my teacher has to answer to. My teacher’s been around long enough to be left alone, as he’s proven he knows what he’s doing over the years.

How’s he held accountable regarding promotions? Simple: he’s there when his students are testing for dan ranks and honbu (headquarters dojo) by Kaicho (head of the organization). Send a few people who are suspect, and he’ll get spoken to very matter of factly. He hasn’t had a single person fail in his 30 years, but others have. And other CIs have been pulled aside and spoken to about bringing people who aren’t ready.

My teacher can do whatever he wants. He could’ve had me tested for shodan the day after I signed up (if the test was offered that day). And my performance would’ve reflected on him, good or bad. That’s accountability.

I'm intrigued when reading about that kind of testing - it has some good accountability built in. All of my training - where ranks were involved - was with schools where the testing/promotion were performed by the CI or other instructors at the school, never with a panel, and never with outsiders. And that includes training for more than 20 years within an association.

 

[JR 137]

I'm intrigued when reading about that kind of testing - it has some good accountability built in. All of my training - where ranks were involved - was with schools where the testing/promotion were performed by the CI or other instructors at the school, never with a panel, and never with outsiders. And that includes training for more than 20 years within an association.

There’s only one person on that panel - Kaicho. CIs and others helping might quietly point out someone who he should get a better look at if he doesn’t notice them struggling, but it’s Kaicho’s show. His son is taking a larger role in dan testing now that Kaicho is getting up there in age, but it’s definitely him and no one else.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There’s only one person on that panel - Kaicho. CIs and others helping might quietly point out someone who he should get a better look at if he doesn’t notice them struggling, but it’s Kaicho’s show. His son is taking a larger role in dan testing now that Kaicho is getting up there in age, but it’s definitely him and no one else.

Interesting. I've never seen (though I'm sure it exists elsewhere) a system with a single point of promotion like that.

 

[JR 137]

Interesting. I've never seen (though I'm sure it exists elsewhere) a system with a single point of promotion like that.

When you’ve been at it for 60+ years, I think you know what you’re looking at and looking for

 

[pdg]

I'm intrigued when reading about that kind of testing - it has some good accountability built in. All of my training - where ranks were involved - was with schools where the testing/promotion were performed by the CI or other instructors at the school, never with a panel, and never with outsiders. And that includes training for more than 20 years within an association.

I only have the one point of reference...

I've never been promotion tested by my own instructors - colour belt testing is done at our school, but by an instructor from a different school within the organisation. Dan testing is done at another location, in front of a GM (and panel I believe, not done one yet).

While none of them are fully 'outside', being part of the same org, they're not exactly 'inside' either.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Thanks for the well wishes.

As far as your guy with his decision to adapt to your teacher’s variations/emphasis/whatever you want to call it, I agree 100%. If your teacher is going to promote him, he must meet all your teacher’s standards. Being ranked elsewhere doesn’t mean anything when your teacher’s going to promote anyone. If he doesn’t want to change his approach to the curriculum, that’s his business and I get it; if he wants your teacher to issue him a rank, he’s got to meet his standards for that rank. No one should issue rank according to someone else’s standards, unless of course they’re issuing it according to someone who they are required to answer to’s standards.

Agreed. Our organization is small; our dojo is smaller. However, my sensei is well-known and respected around the world. I am mindful of that when I represent myself as one of his black belt students. I have a lot to live up to. Not just technical proficiency, either. That may even be the least of it. Honor, integrity, perseverance. I represent him in many ways and I try to keep that in mind.

 

[skribs123 143]

I only have the one point of reference...

I've never been promotion tested by my own instructors - colour belt testing is done at our school, but by an instructor from a different school within the organisation. Dan testing is done at another location, in front of a GM (and panel I believe, not done one yet).

While none of them are fully 'outside', being part of the same org, they're not exactly 'inside' either.

Out of curiosity, is this because your instructors are not qualified to judge tests, or because you need an unbiased peer to judge what the instructor is teaching?

 

[pdg]

Out of curiosity, is this because your instructors are not qualified to judge tests, or because you need an unbiased peer to judge what the instructor is teaching?

"My" instructors officiate at testing for other schools, so it's not lack of qualification.

The second option is open to interpretation, a cynic might assume it's the org checking up on instructors - which I'm quite sure isn't the case. It's not against the rules for the instructors to test their own students, but they choose not to.

I think it's partially a self check, and also a bit of ongoing prep for the format of Dan testing.

 

[skribs123 143]

"My" instructors officiate at testing for other schools, so it's not lack of qualification.

The second option is open to interpretation, a cynic might assume it's the org checking up on instructors - which I'm quite sure isn't the case. It's not against the rules for the instructors to test their own students, but they choose not to.

I think it's partially a self check, and also a bit of ongoing prep for the format of Dan testing.

So all of the instructors in your system follow the same format?

I'm just curious of the dynamics of it, because at my school, every instructor has slightly different ideas of the best way to approach teaching. While we might teach the same material, some people think different things are important for each belt level. Some are looking at the full body movement during punches, some are looking at the stances during forms, and some are looking at other things.

So I'm just picturing the stance guy teaching his yellow belts the forms and paying attention to the stances, and then judging the other guy's test and seeing stances that are going to be cleaned up later. Or something like that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I only have the one point of reference...

I've never been promotion tested by my own instructors - colour belt testing is done at our school, but by an instructor from a different school within the organisation. Dan testing is done at another location, in front of a GM (and panel I believe, not done one yet).

While none of them are fully 'outside', being part of the same org, they're not exactly 'inside' either.

That's actually what I meant by "outside". When I hear of folks outside the organisation being involved, that just confuses me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So all of the instructors in your system follow the same format?

I'm just curious of the dynamics of it, because at my school, every instructor has slightly different ideas of the best way to approach teaching. While we might teach the same material, some people think different things are important for each belt level. Some are looking at the full body movement during punches, some are looking at the stances during forms, and some are looking at other things.

So I'm just picturing the stance guy teaching his yellow belts the forms and paying attention to the stances, and then judging the other guy's test and seeing stances that are going to be cleaned up later. Or something like that.

This is what goes through my head, too. If I was still a member of the association I came up in, I could see some students passing tests with other instructors when I wouldn't pass them, and vice-versa - all because of some different emphasis.

 

[skribs123 143]

This is what goes through my head, too. If I was still a member of the association I came up in, I could see some students passing tests with other instructors when I wouldn't pass them, and vice-versa - all because of some different emphasis.

I was thinking the opposite. Where you might fail some that their instructor would pass, because they're following their instructor's guidelines but it's not what you would look for.