Taekwondo: Art versus sport

[MSUTKD]

I have medaled nationally in USA Taekwondo in both forms and fighting. I have trained and fought with Olympic, World and National medalists in my career and I respect the true fighting ability of these people though many could not do any forms. For me to judge any of these fighters when I have never even fought at their level is just plain hypocrisy and as a model, I would never do it. When you talk a big game to cover your inadequacies, fears and regrets you leave a trace in your students. If and when they see this, you will have destroyed all that they worked for. If, however, you are careful not to make blanket statements about things you really do not know and encourage your students to see the positive labors of high level athletes you will gain their trust. EXAMPLE – I do not think that MMA is a martial “art” BUT they are amazing fighters and athletes. I do not knock them and certainly make no claims that I could beat them. Because of this I train many MMA guys how taekwondo people kick and I get to train with them and learn stuff too. I want my students to find the “art/sport” that gives them passion even if it is not the one I do or the way I do it.

I for one do not see ANY difference in the so called “art” or “sport”. These are labels for those who do not want to really find out about combat but rather make excuses (on both sides). The art teaches us the basic skills, ways of thought and beginnings of physical ability. The sport gives us a method of testing our understanding of fighting and developing into an athlete. Sorry, but if you are not in shape YOU CANNOT FIGHT ON THE DEADLY STREETS! They create a balance. We as individuals will find which path fits us for the time. Both have many lessons to teach and if your basics are good then moving in and out of each is possible. Many people on this board that I actually know in person DO BOTH and are very good at it.

I for one am done fighting now; I did my time and I tried my best. I still like to compete so I got into the Poomsae thing and am competing at the highest level I can. My real passion is teaching but I cannot really be a good teacher if I have not been there or at least gave my best; which allows us to learn the lessons to PASS ON to the next generation.

 

[dortiz]

There really is no point in arguing what each person knows or feels. Ron, I agree they are top players but I also feel very strongly from watching their habits and having sparred some top competitors that their training has led to them to some bad fighting habits. Do I need to be right or wrong, NO.
What I challenge the sport side folks is to take some time and change your sparring. Have people watch you and and add controlled head shots and leg blocks etc. See what your habits are.
Muscle memory and reaction is VERY hard to control and change.

Sadly for me it will be way easier for them to adjust to fighting style versus for me to ever get their level in what they do : (

Dave O.

 

[terryl965]

Michigan?

oh man, not again.

ok, assuming you are not who i think you are, if you have to say you can, and do so WHILE taking a cheap shot, you prob cant.

TW I am sure you know who Master Southwick is and how much talent he has. Come on can we just get along.

 

[dancingalone]

I for one do not see ANY difference in the so called “art” or “sport”. These are labels for those who do not want to really find out about combat but rather make excuses (on both sides). The art teaches us the basic skills, ways of thought and beginnings of physical ability. The sport gives us a method of testing our understanding of fighting and developing into an athlete. Sorry, but if you are not in shape YOU CANNOT FIGHT ON THE DEADLY STREETS!

I disagree with the first sentence. What I see as sport is a smaller, specialized set of skills worked to a high level for use in an activity with very confined rules. There are tactics and techniques developed entirely for the 'game' with little regard or thought for adaptation outside.

I'm still not sure what most of you mean by "traditional martial art", but I look at it from a concrete systems standpoint, including kicks, strikes, blocks, locks, throws. Granted there is some overlap, particularly with kicks, but the fighting range is much broader in the overall system, with close, medium, and long-range attacks developed and defended against. The sole weakness is the lack of a ground range, but that's rather common in striking systems. There is some clinch work in sport sparring, but it would be incorrect to state that as much effort is expended to gain effectiveness in all ranges. And we've yet to even think about locks or pins or even a simple elbow to the face.

From a purely technical perspective, the argument that sport is the same as "art" cannot stand. As for being in shape, that's true enough. Being strong and quick can only help you whether you do TKD or boxing/MMA or whatever.

 

[dancingalone]

I am certainly proficient in fighting under the WTF rule set. But I do not train to the rule set. I simply train to execute the techniques of the art to the best of my ability. When doing WTF sparring, I simply limit myself to the legal techniques. As I said in my other thread, I look very much different from the typical WTF sport taekwondoist.

Then I respectfully submit, Daniel, that you're not doing both sport sparring and traditional martial arts. You're practicing traditional martial arts, period.

 

[dancingalone]

ok....
You can do sport TKD with your hands up u know!

Can you? I was led to understand by a previous post on the forum that keeping your hands up makes you very vulnerable to a roundhouse kick to the sides, and that's why hands are invariably down at the highest levels of the sport.

 

[dortiz]

As re read I want to stress that its not bad to be great at the sport aspect. Its freakin awesome.
But its training to do something different than self defense, and it is "training" your body to move and react a certain way.
Some folks say they dont claim self defense, others say they are the same art.
Its to this argument that I believe there is fair discussion. Again, I wont try to prove anything on the internet but I do challenge those folks to find ways to test their boundaries.
I have sat on Black Belt tests and heard the kids say now I know how to defend myself. It scares me. Thats the only reason I keep typing.

Dave O.

 

[ACJ]

Can you? I was led to understand by a previous post on the forum that keeping your hands up makes you very vulnerable to a roundhouse kick to the sides, and that's why hands are invariably down at the highest levels of the sport.

You certainly can. Especially with creative use of your shins, fists and feet, you can do well at all levels of competitive wtf style sparring. And I would judge that the invariably down comment unfair. Even though keeping your hands down is the predominant choice of high level athletes, even they do not keep their hands down. There's actually a fair amount of movement of their hands from down to guarding the face from kicks and to a clinch hold.

 

[dancingalone]

You certainly can. Especially with creative use of your shins, fists and feet, you can do well at all levels of competitive wtf style sparring. And I would judge that the invariably down comment unfair. Even though keeping your hands down is the predominant choice of high level athletes, even they do not keep their hands down. There's actually a fair amount of movement of their hands from down to guarding the face from kicks and to a clinch hold.

<shrugs> They're always down in the matches I watch. It is what it is.

The explanation I was given about why they are down made sense to me. The roundhouse kick to the side has got to be one of the quickest sport kicks out there so it's logical to guard against that first.

 

[dortiz]

Maybe ACJ but even coming in from the clinch the hands are not driving at the head. This is because that would be a penalty. So you are training to react a certain way. Again great to win that round but not great for fighting.
I am almost shocked because I was ready to hear how we dont need to fight and all the benefits that sport adds to the people and kids. A losing argument for me, really. I was not prepared to hear " we train one way but are really good at acting another"
I just dont see that in anything. As a matter of fact even in cross sports you will hear a comment of " he did it that way because of his X training.

Dave O.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Can you? I was led to understand by a previous post on the forum that keeping your hands up makes you very vulnerable to a roundhouse kick to the sides, and that's why hands are invariably down at the highest levels of the sport.

Both are technically correct. At the highest levels, yes they invariably maintain a lower guard, but there is no rule that prevents you from maintaining a more classical stance and guard.

Likewise, you can certainly keep your hands up. In the last tournament I competed in, I saw a mix of both. I did not count the kids in this, as most of them just kept their hands generally in front of them or had them at their sides kind of uninintentionally.

In terms of teens and adults, it seemed to break down like this: if you were hot to trot with rankings and training specifically to win tournaments, you maintained a low guard. Everyone else seemed to have a more classical stance and simply limited their attacks to what was allowed within the rule set.

Consider: very, very few who take up taekwondo ever get anywhere near the highest levels (and most know do not have aspirations to do so), so most of them tend to revert to a hands up guard.

Daniel

 

[dortiz]

Enough has been said ; )

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Enough has been said ; )

So does that mean that this topic will cease to infect every other thread in the taekwondo section?

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

So does that mean that this topic will cease to infect every other thread in the taekwondo section?

Daniel

Nope. This past week's backlash had probably been building given the preponderance of sport topics on the boards recently. I still wish Bob would make separate boards for the TKD section.

 

[ACJ]

<shrugs> They're always down in the matches I watch. It is what it is.

The explanation I was given about why they are down made sense to me. The roundhouse kick to the side has got to be one of the quickest sport kicks out there so it's logical to guard against that first.

What matches do you watch? Did you watch the Olympic Taekwondo sparring? Just watched a couple videos to check, most seem to be throwing their hands up.

 

[ACJ]

Maybe ACJ but even coming in from the clinch the hands are not driving at the head. This is because that would be a penalty. So you are training to react a certain way. Again great to win that round but not great for fighting.
I am almost shocked because I was ready to hear how we dont need to fight and all the benefits that sport adds to the people and kids. A losing argument for me, really. I was not prepared to hear " we train one way but are really good at acting another"
I just dont see that in anything. As a matter of fact even in cross sports you will hear a comment of " he did it that way because of his X training.

Dave O.

I didn't say anything about driving at the head, and mostly in Taekwondo matches, even without penalty would that be a good idea.

 

[dancingalone]

What matches do you watch? Did you watch the Olympic Taekwondo sparring? Just watched a couple videos to check, most seem to be throwing their hands up.

I'm not going to argue about this with you. Empirical evidence is good enough for me, particularly when many of the board members who do participate in WTF-rules competition agree this is a hallmark, albeit for good reason.

 

[ACJ]

I'm not going to argue about this with you. Empirical evidence is good enough for me, particularly when many of the board members who do participate in WTF-rules competition agree this is a hallmark, albeit for good reason.

How many of them train with Olympic athletes? And it is hardly for good reason either, keeping them down ALL the time is a sure-fire way to get your head knocked off.

 

[bluekey88]

I've been unable o comment on this topic due to being insanely busy...amd I've missed a post here and there...so forgive me if I repeat previously made points.

About the low guard....here's what I tell my kids....low guard does not mean NO guard.

What I mean is that for competition, we encourage a low guard. Front hand down low to protect from a fast roundhouse to the body. Back hand up by the solar plexus to guard the body nd able to move to gaurd the head. If I see :floppy fish hands" I yell...sometimes hand out extra push ups.

the really elite super fast kids can get away with no guard...but they've got outstanding footwork....most players don't have that. So they need a low gaurd.

When my kids are in regular classes not comp team practice), hands are up in a more classical boxing-type gaurd....because it's more important to protect the head. It is up to the well trained, well-developed TKD'ist to determine what situation w=they are in and adapt the guard, tactics and strategy to meet the situation.

Training in sport develops one set of skills with a fair degree of carry over (conditioning, speed, positional awareness, timing, distance, power, taking hits, balance, etc.) while classical training with focus on SD develops a different set of skills (with a fair degree of overlap). Sport training is really just a subset of traditional training (along with poomse, breaking, hoshinsul, etc.).

Now, to be a top level player, you probably have to make SD training less important for a time (especially around major tournaments), but that doesn;t mean that it never happens. Nor does it mean that sport tkd enthusiasts don't have, can't develop, don't care about developing.maintaing an SD skill set.

What I don't get is the people who just HATE sport tkd. Why hate? Sure you can dislike...not want ot participate in...not understand..whatever...but HATE? That's an awful strong word. Life's too short to hate, and I don't see where the sportive aspect of the art is destroying anything.

Dodgy business practices, poor professional ethics, political infighting are more a danger to the art than the sport. Those things are in every aspect of TKD and other martial arts, regardless of style or organization. You want to hate? Hate the unethical leaders who drag all of us through the mud and lay off the poor kids who just want to have fun doing something they enjoy.

Peace,
Erik

 

[dortiz]

I didn't say anything about driving at the head, and mostly in Taekwondo matches, even without penalty would that be a good idea.


To practice fighting, yes!