Taekwondo: Art versus sport

[Daniel Sullivan]

Okay, this is a service to all:

If you wish to debate sport vs. art in TKD, here is a thread to do just that. It will even come up in the search: taekwondo sport vs. art. Please stop making every thread about sport versus art!!!!

I will even kick it off:

The art and sport of taekwondo compliment eachother. Even WTF sport, which is fairly divorced from the rest of the art still contributes in a postitive way to the development of the taekwondoin.

The art is taken as a whole, with sport being but one aspect of it.

There you are, the most despised thing that one can do in a debate: offer a moderate opinion.

Now have at and obey the forum rules.

Daniel

 

[d1jinx]

Not every sport TKD-er ignores the art. it IS possible to do both.

It is a poor assumption on those who stereotype sport TKD-ers to think that all they do is sport and dont practice the art. it is possible to do both.

 

[dancingalone]

Daniel,

As a moderate in this debate, do you think each can stand by itself? Is there a point to training sport without also training the traditional side? It would seem that there are plenty of examples of traditionalists that carry little elements of sport competition into their daily practice.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Personally, the core issue here is not so much sport vs. art, but in many schools, all sparring being ignored outside of the sport sparring.

WTF sparring is alive sparring, something lacking in many other arts. In concert with other types of alive training, it enhances the student.

Now, schools that do only sport do cause problems in terms of perception, but as long as they are up front about what they are doing, then let them do their thing and enjoy it. I do wish that they would call it "sport taekwondo" rather than just taekwondo.

Aside from that, I am happy doing what I am doing. Whether or not another school does sport only has no bearing on my training.

Daniel

 

[Gorilla]

I love the Art!! I really love the self defense applications of Traditional TKD. I love the tenets of TKD. I love what all aspects of TKD have done for my kids. My kids practice all aspects of TKD and compete in the sport. I like everything about TKD. The sport and the art can and should coexist.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel,

As a moderate in this debate, do you think each can stand by itself? Is there a point to training sport without also training the traditional side? It would seem that there are plenty of examples of traditionalists that carry little elements of sport competition into their daily practice.

Certainly, each can stand on their own.

Sport is sport. Football stands on its own as a sport. You tackle a guy and bring him to the ground. Why not submit him and make him tap out? Because it is not wrestling.

Frankly, sport TKD for kids and teens is, in my opinion, very healthy, probably more so than many school athletic programs. And the problems that TKD has as a sport are, quite honestly, virtual molehills compared to the mountain of hideousness that is modern professional athletics in this country.

Traditional always stands on its own and will always be a presence. It does not need the sport specifically, but it should involve alive training if it is to be effective. The traditional offers much that the sport does not, much that people past their athletic prime are interested in.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

Great thread Daniel. The one thing that I don't think fits is the simple word "versus" The two do not compete with each other as they do as you said. coexist to help enhance one another.

At our school you can choose to do both if you want. The school starts everyone in the traditional art only and it touches on the sport side from a point of letting the kids have fun and spar once a month or so. That being the case we do have a sport side also, and if you are handpicked and asked to join then your training in the sport begins. That does not mean that you stop coming to class for the art, it just means that you now get to add to what the art gives you.

I can tell you that every kid that does the sport excels in the art. Why? Because he/she now have to train way beyond anyone that only takes the art. They train daily and on weekend and 2-4 hours each day. Sometimes they will train twice a day. There is more emphasis on speed, power, and doing techniques that the other kids don't get as much practice at. They take more hits and give more hits. These sport kids become faster, stronger, tougher. They have better endurance, technique, and understanding of everything.

Now because they also do regular class they actually push other kids to step up. We have 10 year olds that are in the sport, and once in regular class they destroy kids 4 to 5 years older. Just because they can move better and see better. They hit harder and with more precision. No these 10 year olds cannot beat any adults but once they become 16 they will.

The sport kids are also easier to teach as the sport gives them better discipline. They already know what it takes and are pushed harder than the regular kids.

Sport and Art are two sides of the same coin and yes you can have either side of the coin blank but when you make sure they are on the same coin together you have one special coin.

Just my .02

 

[dancingalone]

At our school you can choose to do both if you want.

This is said by a lot of people. I've expressed this opinion before, but I don't think you can do both on an elite level. Not enough hours in the day.

It all gets back to what you consider to be traditional martial arts. I get the sense that for many traditional martial arts just means typical commercial studio fare: a little bit of forms, a little bit of self-defense, some light sparring. Any real hoshinsul practice is thrown into the "Oh, that's hapkido" realm, so it's not done or thought of at all.

Granted, I teach a different art now than taekwondo (hold a 2nd dan in TKD though), but you couldn't complete my curriculum AND spend 2-4 hours a day on sport sparring. JUST CAN'T BE DONE.

I'd love to see a full breakdown of what traditional martial arts means to the taekwondo people on MT. That would surely go a far ways to determining whether there's sufficient time to practice both or not.

 

[ATC]

This is said by a lot of people. I've expressed this opinion before, but I don't think you can do both on an elite level. Not enough hours in the day.

It all gets back to what you consider to be traditional martial arts. I get the sense that for many traditional martial arts just means typical commercial studio fare: a little bit of forms, a little bit of self-defense, some light sparring. Any real hoshinsul practice is thrown into the "Oh, that's hapkido" realm, so it's not done or thought of at all.

Granted, I teach a different art now than taekwondo (hold a 2nd dan in TKD though), but you couldn't complete my curriculum AND spend 2-4 hours a day on sport sparring. JUST CAN'T BE DONE.

I'd love to see a full breakdown of what traditional martial arts means to the taekwondo people on MT. That would surely go a far ways to determining whether there's sufficient time to practice both or not.

Dancing. I hear you but I have some questions to understand better as to why it can't be done.

1. How often do you train in a traditional standpoint?
2. How long are your classes in regards to time in each session?
3. How demanding is your training? Meaning are there many injuries?

Thanks.

 

[Gorilla]

This is said by a lot of people. I've expressed this opinion before, but I don't think you can do both on an elite level. Not enough hours in the day.

It all gets back to what you consider to be traditional martial arts. I get the sense that for many traditional martial arts just means typical commercial studio fare: a little bit of forms, a little bit of self-defense, some light sparring. Any real hoshinsul practice is thrown into the "Oh, that's hapkido" realm, so it's not done or thought of at all.

Granted, I teach a different art now than taekwondo (hold a 2nd dan in TKD though), but you couldn't complete my curriculum AND spend 2-4 hours a day on sport sparring. JUST CAN'T BE DONE.

I'd love to see a full breakdown of what traditional martial arts means to the taekwondo people on MT. That would surely go a far ways to determining whether there's sufficient time to practice both or not.

Our team is sport oriented at this time. We have several fighters at the Elite level and 90% of the time is spent on sport Jan thru August. We then move to more rounded curriculum Sept thru Dec. We have some folks based on team trials and various other events train 90% of the time on the Sport. Many Sport TKD people move back to more traditional TKD after thier sport career is over.

 

[dancingalone]

1. How often do you train in a traditional standpoint?

Is physical conditioning considered traditional? If so, all my training time is traditional, between conditioning and practicing the system alone or with a partner.

2. How long are your classes in regards to time in each session?

2 hours classes 2x a week. My students are expected to train 3 times that amount outside of class independently. I tell my student it's just like college in terms of commitment expectations. It's very obvious when anyone slacks since they just don't recall the lessons learned previously or they lack fluency in repeating a specific movement I taught.

3. How demanding is your training? Meaning are there many injuries?

Plenty of bruises and bleeding. Occasionally, someone will miss time from various ailments like knee or back problems. How much of that is from martial arts training I have no idea, but I think surely it plays a part. That's why I only accept physically active adults in my dojo; no wish to run a fitness gym or an infirmary.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This is said by a lot of people. I've expressed this opinion before, but I don't think you can do both on an elite level.Not enough hours in the day.

Elite?? Nobody with any sort of real life is going to have time to be "elite" in much of anything outside of their job.

How about simple proficiency? Do we all have to be elite? Is a martial art not worth taking if you cannot be elite? Is the elite athlete the yardstick? If you are an olympic trainer, absolutely it is. But very, very few schools, even WTF schools are sending anyone to the olympics. Very few gyms send anyone to the olympics. There is a very limited number of people who have any hope of the olympics, in TKD or anything else for that matter.

It all gets back to what you consider to be traditional martial arts. I get the sense that for many traditional martial arts just means typical commercial studio fare: a little bit of forms, a little bit of self-defense, some light sparring. Any real hoshinsul practice is thrown into the "Oh, that's hapkido" realm, so it's not done or thought of at all.

Really, is that such an awful thing? Granted, it is not my preferrence, but is it awful? Most people cannot realistically handle much more than this. And this is the market that such schools are designed to cater to.

Most schools along those lines can offer more focused training in any of the above, and if the student sticks around, they will find their niche. Most students quit after black belt, but really the colored belt grades are supposed to give the student a more well rounded look at things and from there, they can focus in on sport, SD, breaking, or forms. Some people may do all of the above at different life stages if they stick with it long enough.

Granted, I teach a different art now than taekwondo (hold a 2nd dan in TKD though), but you couldn't complete my curriculum AND spend 2-4 hours a day on sport sparring. JUST CAN'T BE DONE.

In fact, most people spending 2-4 hours a day sparring are not elite either. Most pro athletes are not 'elite' and their chosen sport is all that they do. It takes a lot more than just hours logged to become elite in anything.

I'd love to see a full breakdown of what traditional martial arts means to the taekwondo people on MT. That would surely go a far ways to determining whether there's sufficient time to practice both or not.

The word traditional is one of those hard to define words. Given the newness of taekwondo, I would venture that traditions are still sorting themselves out.

One view is that a "traditional" school is focused mainly on practical usage of the art and on the forms and breaking that are traditionally associated with karate based arts.

I still practice taekwondo and teach beginners and kids classes, but my main training focus these days is in hapkido, mainly because it is more of what I was looking for.

To me, a traditional would look a lot like a traditional karate school if it is more self defense oriented and a lot like a traditional kendo school if more sport oriented.

I would think that the karate school would be self exclamatory, but allow me to explain the kendo school analogy.

In a kendo school, there is a great degree of formality. The atmosphere is formal. The sparring is even very formal. Kata are expected to be done with precision and power. Different schools focus on the kata to greater or lesser degrees, some even offering a greater degree of bokken work, but the sparring is universal between them. Due to the bogu worn during sparring, the calisthenics and endurance work in kendo is very important.

Likewise, I see a traditional taekwondo school in the same light. Heavy emphasis on the basics through the keub grades, formal atmosphere, and mostly practical self defense and light contact sparring through the keub grades, with just enough sport here and there to whet the appetites of those who might want more at a higher level, say around second keub.

That way, students are not fast tracked into sport sparring; it is held out as a reward to those who stick it out and become proficient in the basics of the art first.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Elite?? Nobody with any sort of real life is going to have time to be "elite" in much of anything outside of their job.

How about simple proficiency? Do we all have to be elite? Is a martial art not worth taking if you cannot be elite? Is the elite athlete the yardstick? If you are an olympic trainer, absolutely it is. But very, very few schools, even WTF schools are sending anyone to the olympics. Very few gyms send anyone to the olympics. There is a very limited number of people who have any hope of the olympics, in TKD or anything else for that matter.

Substitute proficient for elite if you'd like. I don't think it changes the equation. If you're spending 2-4 hours a day on sport sparring, you don't have room for anything else. Unless you don't have a job or schooling, I guess.

Really, is that such an awful thing? Granted, it is not my preferrence, but is it awful? Most people cannot realistically handle much more than this. And this is the market that such schools are designed to cater to.

No, there's nothing wrong with a 'light' curriculum at all if that's all one has the time or the interest level for. What I dislike is that when we fall into these sport discussions, there's always multiple people that say they do both. I simply want to peel at the onion and understand what they mean by that. If all traditional martial arts means is some light sparring and a cursory working of forms, then I fully understand where they are coming from. If they mean traditional martial arts along the lines of what I expect to see, then no I don't agree it's possible to do both.

In fact, most people spending 2-4 hours a day sparring are not elite either. Most pro athletes are not 'elite' and their chosen sport is all that they do. It takes a lot more than just hours logged to become elite in anything.

Actually I understand most boxers spend less than an hour a day (if even that) doing live sparring. Too much risk of injury. They do lots of other drills however, including hitting pads.

The word traditional is one of those hard to define words. Given the newness of taekwondo, I would venture that traditions are still sorting themselves out.

Yep.

One view is that a "traditional" school is focused mainly on practical usage of the art and on the forms and breaking that are traditionally associated with karate based arts.
----
Likewise, I see a traditional taekwondo school in the same light. Heavy emphasis on the basics through the keub grades, formal atmosphere, and mostly practical self defense and light contact sparring through the keub grades, with just enough sport here and there to whet the appetites of those who might want more at a higher level, say around second keub.

Daniel

Perhaps another thread, but I believe the relative poverty of what passes for "traditional" within taekwondo is due to the broken chain of knowledge from Okinawa to Japan to Korea.

 

[ATC]

1. How often do you train in a traditional standpoint?

Is physical conditioning considered traditional? If so, all my training time is traditional, between conditioning and practicing the system alone or with a partner.

2. How long are your classes in regards to time in each session?

2 hours classes 2x a week. My students are expected to train 3 times that amount outside of class independently. I tell my student it's just like college in terms of commitment expectations. It's very obvious when anyone slacks since they just don't recall the lessons learned previously or they lack fluency in repeating a specific movement I taught.

3. How demanding is your training? Meaning are there many injuries?

Plenty of bruises and bleeding. Occasionally, someone will miss time from various ailments like knee or back problems. How much of that is from martial arts training I have no idea, but I think surely it plays a part. That's why I only accept physically active adults in my dojo; no wish to run a fitness gym or an infirmary.

Well I could certainly see how number 3 could lessen the effort put into trying to do both. To avoid injury you would most certainly not put forth your best effort in a traditional sense if you knew you had a major tournament coming up just to avoid injury.

As for question 1 and 2, I don't see them being a problem at all. In fact I see the sport side enhancing or helping.

I can only speak for my kids and maybe 1 other that I train or help train personally with the sport and in tradition and they all spend 5 hours per day in the Dojang.

Now there is such a thing as tournament season and that season is where you ramp up your sport training. During the off season the competitors only need to keep in relatively good shape. A little before and during the tournament season they will spend more and more time in and out of the Dojang getting into top shape and most times will not be able to physically do both as rest is just as important as training. But there are off days. Off days to use does not mean to do nothing it is to do lightly or less than a heavy training day. On those days they do still go to class.

I have stated above in this thread, all of the kids, (I say kids but cause to me 20's and down are kids) that do the sport are much better all around than any of the non sport kids. This is because the sport is so physically demanding. They come to the art classes already hardened.

I do think you can do both and both well.

 

[dancingalone]

I do think you can do both and both well.

So what exactly is traditional martial arts training to you?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So what exactly is traditional martial arts training to you?

Though you asked what traditional training is to ATC, I will give a follow up to my earlier answer.

For the most part, I see "traditional" as more of an atmosphere. A dedicated sport school will certainly hit a lot of the same areas as a "hard core" traditional school. If you are going to be competative, then you are looking at a lot of intensive training, hard sparring, and physical conditioning.

The major difference is that the end goal of competition machine vs. human wrecking ball.

Personally, a "traditional Taekwondo school" will have at least three of the following, with the first two a must:

Dobok with belts (as opposed to whatever they wear in MMA).
Poomsae/hyung/tul
Korean terminology
Breaking
Conditioning for said breaking
Step sparring
Hoshinsul
Alive sparring with a fairly full set of targets and use of both feet and hands.
Sport sparring

Traditionally, taekwondo has no weapons curriculum, so I did not include it in the list.

Sport sparring has been a part of taekwondo all along, so I do consider it traditional.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

Let me chime in here: I see two problems right off the bat.

1. Why is it bad to do both and become efficent at them both at the same time? I see plenty of dual athletes in other sports, it is simply time management at it best. Zachary goes to school from 8 AM to 4 PM M-F, he does his homework from 4-6 pm everyday, he works on his Traditional side of TKD from 6:30 to 7:30 M-F and from 1-4 on Saturday. He joins the fight team that is simply the sportside of TKD from 7:30 - 9:30 M-F and Saturday 9-1. Sunday is simply family workout days and fun day with Saturday night being what the kids want to do. Zachary has been improving alot at the sportside and he is becoming a great Traditional TKDer as well.

2. Sport Versus tardition what kind of statement is that since they both have so much in common when it is tought the right way. The sport can help bring timing, movement and practical evasion to the art side. I have been training people for thirty years and have always seen the value in both.

I wish people could relized that not all people are created equal and what alot of folks on these so called chat line forget alot is the few that are that talented seem to be alot but when you fractor in how many people do TKD the percentage is probly like .00001%, so even though there are alot of folks on the board for the sport and there student or child can excel at both in the end it is like 1 in a million that can become great at both atthe sametime.

Sport helps bring that sense of accomplimished to alot of youth taken TKD sport, it is the same when a football player plays his sport, lets remember what is the bottom line is a playing field that help our childern grow and become preductive citizen in today world.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

1. Why is it bad to do both and become efficent at them both at the same time?

It is not bad at all, though I have yet to see anybody claim that it is.

2. Sport Versus tardition what kind of statement is that since they both have so much in common when it is tought the right way. The sport can help bring timing, movement and practical evasion to the art side. I have been training people for thirty years and have always seen the value in both.

I agree 100%! But then, I am the moderate around here.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Poomsae/hyung/tul
Korean terminology
Breaking
Conditioning for said breaking
Step sparring
Hoshinsul
Alive sparring with a fairly full set of targets and use of both feet and hands.
Sport sparring

And that's a rather ambitious list even without the sport sparring.

The key is how deep into any of these items do you go. Do you just learn the patterns, or do you learn formal applications for each movement in the form? Do your applications build on top of one another, such that the advanced interpretations still use discrete concepts from the introductory ones? Do you practice the various implied locks and throws and body strikes outside of the form? Does your form work teach you proper body structure so you understand how to resist or divert force from an attacker, whether with a direct strike or otherwise? Do you understand how to make technical adaptations to the form such as stance or striking changes and what the implication will be to usage?

I used pattern work above as an example and only brought out a small fraction of the training aspects my own teacher taught me. All the other items like breaking (did you know you can break water? ) have similar level of challenges to them.

At the same time, I respect the dedication required to excel in sports martial arts. I know it's hard, requiring much athleticism and dedication. All I wish is for traditional training to receive its own modicum of respect. Contrary to what some may think, it isn't a paint-by-the-numbers act.

 

[dancingalone]

1. Why is it bad to do both and become efficent at them both at the same time? I see plenty of dual athletes in other sports, it is simply time management at it best. Zachary goes to school from 8 AM to 4 PM M-F, he does his homework from 4-6 pm everyday, he works on his Traditional side of TKD from 6:30 to 7:30 M-F and from 1-4 on Saturday. He joins the fight team that is simply the sportside of TKD from 7:30 - 9:30 M-F and Saturday 9-1. Sunday is simply family workout days and fun day with Saturday night being what the kids want to do. Zachary has been improving alot at the sportside and he is becoming a great Traditional TKDer as well.

Well, Terry, here's my 1st dan belt test curriculum. Granted it's not TKD, but I hope you can see where I am coming from.

Demonstrate all basic stances and stance shifts
Demonstrate all hand strikes and kicks in random combinations
Demonstrate breaking power with hands (minimum 3 boards), kicks (minimum 3 boards) and in combination (minimum 4 boards in less than 5 seconds with at least 3 techniques)

Sanchin testing:
sanchin performed 10 times in a row (usually takes 45 min to an hour) with INTENSE shime testing

kata:
gekkisai dai ichi
gekkisai dai ni
saifa
gekiha
seiunchin
shisochin
sanseiru

optional kata (any two from this list):
pinan yondan
pinan godan
naihanchi shodan
passai
shorin-ryu seisan

formal bunkai sets (many TKD students won't be familiar with them, but they are essentially two man katas which teach the surface level applications to the solo kata; this is an example video <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcCj1_x77Ms">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcCj1_x77Ms</a> :
kihon bunkai gekkisai dai ichi
kihon bunkai gekkisai dai ni
kihon bunkai saifa
kihon bunkai gekiha
kihon bunkai seiunchin
kihon bunkai shisochin
kihon bunkai sanseiru

meditation & breath control:
demonstrate proper breathing during the test and during a formal observation period

impromtu bunkai demonstration:
at least two from each of the following kata
sanchin
gekkisai dai ichi or dai ni
saifa
seiunchin
shisochin
sanseiru

aiki/jujutsu/judo techniques done from both sides in response to straight or round blow:
ikkyo
nikyo
sankyo
yonkyo
kotegaeshi
shihonage
iriminage
kaitenage
o goshi
o guruma
osoto gari
osoto guruma
tomoe nage
deashi harai
ippon seionage

self-defense (using movements from kata):
wrist grab
cross wrist grab
lapel grab
front choke
rear choke
bear hug
rear bear hug
prone position with someone on top
knife attacks (4)
club attacks (4)
chain attack

kobudo:
kihon-kata-no-bo
kihon-kata-no-bo
tokomine-no-kun (sho)
kumi bo nidan
bo/bo kumite #1
kihon-kata-no-tonfa
tokomine-no-kun (dai)
bo/bo kumite #2
bamahiga-no-tonfa (sho)
bo/tonfa kumite #1

jiyu kumite:
3 rounds of 1 vs. 1
2 rounds of 2 vs. 1
1 round of 3 vs. 1
1 round vs. any brown belt or dan holder present who wishes to test the candidate
1 round vs. me