American Taekwondo (the art, not the org)

[Daniel Sullivan]

In another thread here in the taekwondo section, the observation was made by Dave that taekwondo was brought here by a small group, grown and modified.

I thought the topic interesting, and maybe a chance to cover some ground here other than KKW issues, kiddie belts, or art & sport debates.

It is also a factor that I had never considered, as I have always viewed taekwondo's development as being driven from Korea or Korean led organizations, such as the three ITF groups. I have never seen the ATA as a major shaper of taekwondo in the US due to the fact that they are fairly insular. I have always seen their influence in the art as more in the administrative/business end. That is view that I am certainly open to changing, as I am hardly an authority on the ATA.


What modifications have been made to the art? What is their nature and are they unique to the US? What do you see as the impetus of these changes?


Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

The Jhoon Rhee system I learned called itself American Tae Kwon Do (notice the words are separated) or even Texas Tae Kwon Do at times.

The basics were emphasized with some heavy western boxing influence introduced. A high guard to protect the head was de riguer and sometimes we practiced hooks, jabs, and uppercuts more than we did the classical reverse punch.

It was a very athletic style to practice with sparring included in almost every class. I believe these modifications were made because the ability to fight (even brawl) was always foremost in our minds. It's very likely that the early black belts who learned from Mr. Rhee had lots of boxing experience already or they felt the TKD they learned lacked a sophisticated teaching approach to defending and countering with the hands, so they turned to boxing with its widely dissimulated curriculum to fill in the gaps.

 

[Manny]

Yes, the american tae kwon do was in the begining TSD/TKD by Jhoon Rhee, I think Mr. Rhee modified his TSD/TKD with some western boxing and thus the american tae kwon do born. Also the sparring sistem in the American Tae Kwon Do is not WTF so they use the point sparring system or continus fighting.

Manny

 

[dortiz]

You must also realize that a huge majority of the first waves had little connection back home. Many schools grew their own programs. Some still sending back for Kukkiwon and many not even bothering. Heck a lot of those that immigrated started their own Federations.
Then you have the 2nd and third generation of Americans that now exist ranked under that first wave.
There have been a lot of changes. Some good, some bad but the art has become an american staple. Again some very connected to Korean and some barely as a tradition.

Dave O.

 

[dancingalone]

Yes, the american tae kwon do was in the begining TSD/TKD by Jhoon Rhee, I think Mr. Rhee modified his TSD/TKD

For clarification, Jhoon Rhee never used the Tang Soo Do name at all. He was from the Chung Do Kwan and as far as I know he always used 'tae kwon do' and later 'American tae kwon do' to label his system. He may or may not have used the 'karate' name in his early days in the US - if he did I am inclined to believe it was strictly for explanatory reasons since tae kwon do was not a well known term until later.

 

[dortiz]

Daniel,
just to be clear though, I am more of a traditionalist than an advocate of a new art. At the same time "Call a Kettle Black".
I find it frustrating to see a school that calls it self TKD but spends half the class doing BJJ and Nunchaku training.
Thats why I wonder with the straying being so far from the original if it does not make more sense to think of it as something else.

Dave O.

 

[dancingalone]

Daniel,
Thats why I wonder with the straying being so far from the original if it does not make more sense to think of it as something else.

Dave O.

I am a proponent of different taekwondo styles like in karate. Goju-ryu and kyokushinkai karate are fairly different animals despite kyokushinkai having some roots in Goju. Both styles have their advantages, and both can and do co-exist peacefully.

I guess the tipping point is when should you no longer use the TKD name.

 

[terryl965]

Well I guess here is the million dollar question what is American Tae Kwon Do, I know Allen Stren, Pat Burleson, Roy Kurban and alot of older Martial Artist and one thing for sure the teach Tae Kwon Do the way there instructor did with them. The real problem is not whether or not you do Korean TKD American TKD or Sport TKD but do you really do TKD like in the way of life. Tae Kwon Do is more than punching, kicking and fighting it is a way of life a way to learn to control your emotion and accept without regrets the path that one has choosen.

I know so many great people that do TKD but than again I know of only a handful that really does TKD, this is because TKD is seen in so many different lights that everyone forgets about the true meaning behind all TKD. To me it is simple TKD has so many venues that people are just that people, one can never truely do TKD without following the original roots behind TKD and that is where all problems lie behind the art, sport or way of life.

I can remember back in the mid seventies people believing in the Do nowadays the Do is a meer reflection of what it once was, without one the other can never truely exsist, good cannot live without evil, for American TKD to grow it came from Korean TKD which came from some other art, TKD will and always will be the whipping child withen all MA simply because it has done something unique and that is grown worldwide while it fought internally, it is without adoubt the most talked about and practice MA in the world and with all the diferent orgs. out there it will always be that way. The Korean develope the growth of TKD and everyone else took off and ran with it.

 

[miguksaram]

I am reposting this from the other thread which prompted this thread:

Why should it be called TKD at this point if you have implemented other areas into what you do? Why not give it another name all together? After all, the Koreans did not mix in everything and keep the name Karate. So why not just compose a whole different art?

 

[dancingalone]

Why should it be called TKD at this point if you have implemented other areas into what you do? Why not give it another name all together? After all, the Koreans did not mix in everything and keep the name Karate. So why not just compose a whole different art?

The Koreans have cultural reasons for rejecting karate as the name for their martial art. Americans don't. It's probably as simple as that.

 

[terryl965]

I am reposting this from the other thread which prompted this thread:

Why should it be called TKD at this point if you have implemented other areas into what you do? Why not give it another name all together? After all, the Koreans did not mix in everything and keep the name Karate. So why not just compose a whole different art?

This is a great way of looking at things but one problem would be getting people in the door and making money, people tend to want tradition even though they know nothing about it.

 

[Earl Weiss]

In the '70s we used the moniker "TKD American Style" . It wa our thought that we used all the kicking techniques but placed more emphais on Hand techniques, particularly when it came to sparring borrowing heavily from western boxing and kickboxing.

Gneral Choi's son saw it on my letterhead and asked about it in a manner suggesting that he was not pleased since the larger view of the ITF was that there was only one TKD.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Its getting harder and harder to determine what exactly is tkd. I watch demos put on by other clubs and it is so different from what I do that I cant even see how both can be called tkd. The GM at my club moved to australia in the 60's (I think) an has only been back to korea a couple of times. He makes no attempt whatsoever to keep up with what is happening in the development of tkd , he teaches the exact same cirriculum as he did when he first came here and thus teaches a very 'pure' form. He watches videos of modern tkd or the olympics etc and says (in his best attempt at english , which isnt very good) , "that not tkd". The thing is though , that it is tkd and so is what he is teaching and yet they are worlds apart. These days I just say I do martial arts as saying tkd can give people a very misleading idea of what I do.

 

[miguksaram]

The Koreans have cultural reasons for rejecting karate as the name for their martial art. Americans don't. It's probably as simple as that.

Right...they wanted to give it a name that was distinctly Korean. Their basis was karate, but they innovated it to something more. America is huge melting pot, so why should someone stick to calling it Taekwondo when in fact that is only a fraction of what they teach?

Of course calling their system what they really teach may be hard as well. For example we would have to call our school Sharkey's Taekwonwushukendokaratejitsu Studio.

 

[dancingalone]

Their basis was karate, but they innovated it to something more.

America is huge melting pot, so why should someone stick to calling it Taekwondo when in fact that is only a fraction of what they teach?

I would substitute "different" for "more" in your first sentence above. More indicates greater quantity or greater quality or utility and I'm not sure that's the meaning you meant to convey.

As for the name thing I think it's really hard to determine when you should stop calling something TKD, considering the variance in TKD styles is only accelerating at this point. I'm for the live and let live attitude.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Given that 'tae kwon do' means to trample with the foot/fist/way, I think that the nomenclature allows for a fair amount of interpretation regarding what falls under its auspices.

I consider taekwondo to be a Korean method of teaching a striking-with-assortment art.

I see the original pioneers as putting together a system that contained the techniques that they knew, which were culled from different sources, a good number of which were either from Shotokan or shared with Shotokan. They made use of the kyu/dan system with its associated belts, but they changed the dobok design.

While the technuques and some of the trappings are culled from elsewhere, the system is Korean at heart. It does, however, have room for the addition of new techniques.

Thus, I would think that each region would have its own distinct flavor.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

While the technuques and some of the trappings are culled from elsewhere, the system is Korean at heart.

Maybe this should be a new thread, but what makes taekwondo Korean? Merely the use of Korean language and terms? Much of the philosophy itself in Korean culture stem from Confuscianism, itself of Chinese origin, which widely spread across far east Asia.​

 

[miguksaram]

I would substitute "different" for "more" in your first sentence above. More indicates greater quantity or greater quality or utility and I'm not sure that's the meaning you meant to convey.

Point well taken...I would agree...'different' is a better word to use.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Maybe this should be a new thread, but what makes taekwondo Korean? Merely the use of Korean language and terms? Much of the philosophy itself in Korean culture stem from Confuscianism, itself of Chinese origin, which widely spread across far east Asia.​

Hey, in quoting me, you made me realize that I had a typo in techniques. And too late to edit. Bummer.

I would suppose a combination of Korean cultural elements, including language and philosophy, stylistic factors in the execution of techniques, and the various measures to make taekwondo more 'Korean' as an art.

I do not see any one specific element that makes it 'Korean', as taekwondo has influences both within and without Korea, the strongest one from withou being Japanese (Shotokan influence, adoption of the kyu/dan system and the belt system). I suppose that it is the combination of those elements and how they are put together that would make it Korean.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Hey, in quoting me, you made me realize that I had a typo in techniques. And too late to edit. Bummer.

I would suppose a combination of Korean cultural elements, including language and philosophy, stylistic factors in the execution of techniques, and the various measures to make taekwondo more 'Korean' as an art.

I do not see any one specific element that makes it 'Korean', as taekwondo has influences both within and without Korea, the strongest one from withou being Japanese (Shotokan influence, adoption of the kyu/dan system and the belt system). I suppose that it is the combination of those elements and how they are put together that would make it Korean.

Daniel

A bit like the modern car, no? Cars 'made' in the USA these days frequently have parts manufactured in Asia, and then they are assembled in the States and a label is slapped on then like Ford or amusingly enough Honda.

I am wary of cultural labels when it comes to the martial arts, and in particular taekwondo. One could certainly construct a prima facie case that taekwondo IS NOT Korean based on the facts you state above in support of the label. And then there's the elephant in the living room - that many (most?) of us here are in fact Westerners with the inherent contradictions arising.

I had the privilege(?) of learning karate from a native Okinawan. I'm fairly sure the technical system itself was transmitted fully to me and I absorbed it as best as I could. Can I say I practice Okinawan karate, though, as someone raised in the United States? Hard to say. I have a different answer every time I think about it.