Static training methods in the traditional martial arts

[SahBumNimRush]

Technique is overrated!
Technique refers both to specific movements, and to the technical side of those movements.
'I hit him with my forearm strike technique!' and 'I hit him with a technically good forearm strike!' respectively.
The first one is fine. The second one is overrated.

I agree with what you are saying. However, IMHO, it is more important/correct to put the focus on efficiency/efficacy than "technically" good. Technical standards vary quite a bit, but if it is effective and efficient, who cares? Each art/style/organization has technical standards, which are necessary. Hopefully you (generalization, not you specifically) belong to a school/art/style/org/etc. whose technical standards haven't wandered so far off the beaten path to be ineffective/inefficient.. .

Let's take the rising block/strike used in the video as an example. How many times have you seen a rising block/strike taught to their respective "technical" standard, that would be utterly useless or even dangerous to the practitioner if used on the street? I see it frequently in hyungs/kata competitions.. .

 

[Cyriacus]

I agree with what you are saying. However, IMHO, it is more important/correct to put the focus on efficiency/efficacy than "technically" good. Technical standards vary quite a bit, but if it is effective and efficient, who cares? Each art/style/organization has technical standards, which are necessary. Hopefully you (generalization, not you specifically) belong to a school/art/style/org/etc. whose technical standards haven't wandered so far off the beaten path to be ineffective/inefficient.. .

Let's take the rising block/strike used in the video as an example. How many times have you seen a rising block/strike taught to their respective "technical" standard, that would be utterly useless or even dangerous to the practitioner if used on the street? I see it frequently in hyungs/kata competitions.. .

You delved into what i very offhandly called body mechanics. Efficiency improves speed and acceleration by not wasting movement, which is yet again a principle and not a technique And forearm strikes inherently have alot of incidental redundancy going for them.

In answer to your question, come to think of it, i dont see rising blocks being taught often at all in some of the Dojang/Dojos ive been in. So i guess by default, yeah, i absolutely agree.
I do know i learnt it as a forearm strike first, because the instructor loved (and still loves) the things in every way shape or form.

 

[Brian King]

FYI and for what it is worth, to no-one in particular. Not meaning to step in-between a bunch of Karate folks doing one steps and knowing little about Kata and other dances (just poking with a blunt stick, sorry) I had trouble following the thread so thought I would post a helpful tool to make it easier for late comers to the thread to follow along.

Communication should be clear and as least confusing as possible. If a topic, post or reply is worth replying to it should be worth replying well to. Long replies with different colored text is confusing, long replies with bold parts is also needlessly confusing. Needless confusion clouds the issues and weakens the discussion in my opinion.

There is a quote function built into the tool bar of the reply window. It is easy to use. It looks like a text balloon from the old time comics. A person can copy and paste some dialogue that they wish to quote into the reply window and then highlight the text they wish quoted and click on the tool bar button to put the quote into formatted quotes. You will see [/QUOTE] before and after the text. To clarify multiple conversations and also as good habit above the text write out the persons user name to signify that they are the ones being quoted and replied to. This can be bolded by highlighting their name and clicking the B in the tool bar

Brian King wrote:

There is a quote function built into the tool bar of the reply window. It is easy to use. It looks like a text balloon from the old time comics. A person can copy and paste some dialogue that they wish to quote into the reply window and then highlight the text they wish quoted and click on the tool bar button to put the quote into formatted quotes

Doing this will help others (me) follow the conversation with out having to search for who said what to whom up thread. It is easy to do once it is pointed out and learned. It is a good and useful function.

Regards
Brian King

 

[K-man]

How many times have you seen a rising block/strike taught to their respective "technical" standard, that would be utterly useless or even dangerous to the practitioner if used on the street?

All the time, unfortunately. And even more frightening, the practitioner actually believes it will work in the way they have practised it. :asian:

 

[RTKDCMB]

Can not seem to edit this post to add in things I forgot so I will do it here. Bringing the hand back to the hip - The main source of power (not the only one) is twisting of the hips. Since the twisting motion of the hips produces the largest portion of the power generated in a punch having the hand starting from the hip starting hard up against the body produces more power than punching from the hand away from the body. This is because you are reducing your moment of inertia allowing you to rotate faster due to the conservation of angular momentum. When you perform a punch from the hip the other hand goes back to the hip because that is where the next punch starts from. The hand coming back to the hip can also represent a simultaneous backward elbow strike or a grab and pull from the opponent. Pulling in the opponent whist you strike increases the total mass in motion (like a head on collision) but also reduces the punching speed.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I strongly recommend that you empty your proverbial cup, open your mind, and explore the aspects that these people are suggesting. You may very well realize that you have been merely skimming the surface of the totality of breadth and depth of your own martial art.
.

I could say the same thing to them and you. The cup is never full, if it gets full then just get a bigger cup.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I could say the same thing to them and you. The cup is never full, if it gets full then just get a bigger cup.

I'm not sure what instance you are referring to, as I haven't voiced any opposition to anything that you've said; Outside of your denial of the pulling hand.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I was merely suggesting that, rather than "digging in" to defend your position, you take an honest and open look at what they are saying. You may find a good deal of merit in what they are saying.

 

[Chris Parker]

All I'd ask is.... "What is meant by "traditional martial arts" here?" I mean, the arts I train in are some of the most "traditional" you could find, and are almost entirely kata-based... and nothing in the OP is even relevant, let alone true for the arts I study.... hmm.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Since we have mainly been discussing the pulling hand, here is a reference that encompasses both sides of the topic. http://www.theshotokanway.com/hikite.html

Here is another article that may reiterate what many are saying here.. . http://blogcritics.org/sports/article/hikite-pulling-a-hand-back-to/

 

[Noah_Legel]

Can not seem to edit this post to add in things I forgot so I will do it here. Bringing the hand back to the hip - The main source of power (not the only one) is twisting of the hips. Since the twisting motion of the hips produces the largest portion of the power generated in a punch having the hand starting from the hip starting hard up against the body produces more power than punching from the hand away from the body. This is because you are reducing your moment of inertia allowing you to rotate faster due to the conservation of angular momentum. When you perform a punch from the hip the other hand goes back to the hip because that is where the next punch starts from. The hand coming back to the hip can also represent a simultaneous backward elbow strike or a grab and pull from the opponent. Pulling in the opponent whist you strike increases the total mass in motion (like a head on collision) but also reduces the punching speed.

Now you have added the concept of actually pulling something with the pulling hand, as most (if not all) of us have mentioned, and I won't argue the elbow strike possibility (although it isn't the most practical or effective application) but you still insist on including the idea that punching from a chambered position while pulling the other hand to chamber is the most powerful way to punch.

I maintain that the entire purpose of hikite/pulling-hand/chamber is to control/pull/brace/off-balance your attacker, with a caveat of it being a somewhat decent position to pull back to when throwing punches to the body at close range. Again, I find that pulling the hand back to chamber when punching does not generate more power--in fact, it actually causes you to rotate your upper body less than you would if you kept your guard up. The movement of the hips only indicates that you are generating power with your legs (the hips cannot move unless the legs make them) but in order for that power to be used it has to be transferred through your upper body. The only way to make that transfer of energy happen is to rotate the upper body with the hips, but if you focus on pulling to chamber with perfect form that body rotation is cut short and you stop all of your momentum sooner than is ideal. Many people also tend to let their upper body rotation lag behind their hip rotation when they punch this way, which generates a whipping action that also causes a loss of structure and power. Furthermore, stating that "the other hand goes back to the hip because that is where the next punch starts from" is a terrible reason (it's not even really a reason, at all--it just says to do something because that's how you do it) to pull the hand back unless you are at close range and planning to strike the body, because it's farther from the target than it would be if held in a guard position, not to mention the fact that it leaves an entire side of your head completely open to being struck.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but here is link, which clearly shows as the first movement the reverse punch with the pulling hand. The picture shown here

is from the Bubishi, the Classical Okinawan translation of the Chinese Wubei Zhi, "Account of Military Arts and Science." The first publication of this text is in 1621 AD. I would suggest that this is strong supporting evidence that the pulling hand/chambered fist is more practical than merely generating power.

http://www.karateblogger.com/stari/articles/48 techniques part 1.htm

 

[RTKDCMB]

I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but here is link, which clearly shows as the first movement the reverse punch with the pulling hand. The picture shown here

is from the Bubishi, the Classical Okinawan translation of the Chinese Wubei Zhi, "Account of Military Arts and Science." The first publication of this text is in 1621 AD. I would suggest that this is strong supporting evidence that the pulling hand/chambered fist is more practical than merely generating power.

http://www.karateblogger.com/stari/articles/48 techniques part 1.htm

There are some good techniques in the link showing both the pulling hand and the block and strike. The palm smash, eye gouge and knifehand strikes are not grabs though, they are simultaneous block and strike techniques. The above picture does not contain any grab but shows the hand on the hip of the blocker which shows that the hand being returned to the hip is not always a grab which is what I have been saying since I started the thread and explains why you rarely see the grabbing action of opening and closing the hand when basics or patterns are being performed by traditional martial artists.

 

[chinto]

Kata works, It would not have lasted and be used by systems that have lasted for century's if it did not! on the hand back to the waist, there is a reason why the palm goes facing up. its often a grab and the twisting motion locks the attackers limb to allow you to strike again and again to disable, brake the limb, or kill him/her.

huge amounts of Effort, Time, and yes even blood and lost lives went into the older systems development. They did not fight for point in places like Okinawa in 1918, but for their LIVES! winner of a street fight on Okinawa was usually decided by who was still breathing at the end! some things that modern medicine can cure and so are not particularly life threatening with that DIFINITIVE MEDICAL CARE delivered in a very TIMELY MANNER were a death sentence a century ago. even today a tension hemo/pnemo thorax is very much a deadly thing with out that definitive medical care! Real fights are over in seconds and kata teaches you to move with out even thought.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think it's a reasonable interpretation to say that the hand returning to the hip is a grab. Or an elbow to the rear. Sure, those are legitimate ways to look at it.

In my opinion, as a kung fu guy, it was intended to serve a different primary purpose, and all other interpretations, while perhaps "correct" (or at least not Incorrect) are secondary.

The purpose is to help engage the rotation of the trunk in delivering a powerful punch. The pull-back, when done as a connection to the body and not as an isolated arm-effort-movement, helps with torso rotation and helps one learn to engage the full body when delivering a technique such as a punch. As has been mentioned before, this is really being driven with the legs, to cause rotation in the torso. Yes, I agree completely. But pulling back with the non-punching arm, done with a firm connection to the rotation of the torso as it is being driven by the legs, helps augment that rotation. If the effort is done with the arm alone and not as a connection to the torso, then no, it fails in that purpose.

The reason I say this is because the particular method that I train uses a much exaggerated pull-back with the non-punching arm. It is done to the point of being fully extended to the rear, with the torso completely rotated so that the shoulders and hips form a line between 12:00 and 6:00 (front to rear). And the pull-back, in my system, is understood to be intended to aid in that rotation, which drives the punching arm forward. Oh, and yes, you can also interpret other applications of the movement in the pullback as well.

So in my opinion, pulling the hand to the hip, when done correctly, is a shortened version of the same concept. Less exaggerated than the method that I practice, but the same idea put into action nonetheless. But again, that's when it's correctly linked to the rotation of the torso as driven by the legs. If it's just an arm pull, disconnected from the torso and the legs, well then maybe it's just a grab and nothing more. But as such, it has only the power of the arm and shoulder driving it, and misses the much greater power of the legs and torso.

that's how I see it, anyway.

edit to add another thought: as one develops skill with that rotation, the need for the exaggerated movement (the full rearward extension in the case of my system, or the hip chamber in other systems) becomes less. One learns to harness that full body connection and rotation, without the need for that formal shape of the technique. But the formal technique is a way of drilling the concept until sufficient skill develops that it is no longer needed when delivering the technique.

 

[K-man]

Since we have mainly been discussing the pulling hand, here is a reference that encompasses both sides of the topic. http://www.theshotokanway.com/hikite.html

Here is another article that may reiterate what many are saying here.. . http://blogcritics.org/sports/article/hikite-pulling-a-hand-back-to/

Thank you for those links. If I could take the liberty of posting a few paras. from them.

From the first ....

The pulling hand or hikite as it's called in the dojo contributes much to the effectiveness of a technique, and the more advanced in karate you become, the more you will appreciate its significance.

And from the second ....

Hikite is often derided by many people from other fighting systems who feel that these traditional Oriental arts are stylistic and not very practical. They ask why we leave such a big hole in our guard by pulling the hikite hand back to the hip, rather than leaving it up as a guard like a boxer does. Many traditionalists answer that it is to gain maximum power from the technique. This is never a convincing answer, especially when so many other fighting forms (boxing, kickboxing, Krav Maga etc) can generate a lot of power without pulling back to the hip. Unfortunately, most people miss the point that boxers, kickboxers; or surprisingly, the same traditional martial artists, do actually practice hikite.

and ....

Many Chinese styles include sensitively training with what they call "push hands" or "sticky hands." Imagine that you have to feel for an opponent in the dark. As soon as you contact an arm, you grab it, twist it and pull back to your hip, pulling your opponent off balance (hikite). At the same time, you strike with the other hand, as now you know exactly where he is, even if you can’t see him properly.

(I don't believe for a minute that it is only for fighting in the dark. It is a huge part of close contact fighting full stop.)

and ....

So why do so many people have so much trouble recognizing hikite’s “grappling” applications in traditional Oriental martial arts?

It’s because we usually look through the lens of sport martial arts. In most traditional systems, we are actually banned from grabbing in competition, so we look at our arts mainly from a striking, punching, and kicking point of view. Most traditionalists are not used to looking for grappling applications. However, for night fighting when you really cannot see your opponent very well, grappling would be the cornerstone of self defence!

Which all goes to explain why the following is totally wrong.

From RTKDCMB

Bringing the hand back to the hip whilst punching with the other one;


Why is this done in traditional martial arts training? Bringing the hand back to the hip when punching instead of returning to the guarding position is not something you would do in free sparring or a real self-defence situation, if this is so then why is it done in the patterns or during basics line drills (walking up and down in a straight line in a stance practicing basics)? The answer is that this is done to learn the technique and so you can practice them without having to worry about protecting from attacks. It is a way of isolating the individual movement to concentrate on perfecting them. When you use the same technique during sparring, where you do have to worry about protecting yourself from attacks, you perform the punch from the guarding position. Punching whilst bringing the hand back to the hip is the purest most powerful form of the straight punch with 1 arm going forward and 1 arm going backwards at the same time driving the other one forward like 2 kids on a seesaw, this teaches you to twist the hips properly when performing the punch. If you watch carefully when a traditional martial artist punches from a guarding position this action of moving 1 arm backwards still occurs but to a lesser extent but the hip movement is the same. This is because of all of the practice of twisting the hips that was gained performing the punch in its raw state.

:asian:

 

[K-man]

There are some good techniques in the link showing both the pulling hand and the block and strike. The palm smash, eye gouge and knifehand strikes are not grabs though, they are simultaneous block and strike techniques.

I can't get the Bubishi drawing to copy! :tantrum: Please refer back to the previous posts.

The above picture does not contain any grab but shows the hand on the hip of the blocker which shows that the hand being returned to the hip is not always a grab which is what I have been saying since I started the thread and explains why you rarely see the grabbing action of opening and closing the hand when basics or patterns are being performed by traditional martial artists.

The picture shows the attacker's left arm being captured and the right fist is ready for the strike. In this instance (in this picture) the punch will be launched from the carriage position but it doesn't mean it was pulled back there to prepare for the punch. If the retracted hand had been open, in that same position, it would have been protecting the ribs, sternum and solar plexus (Mizoochi).

And, for what is's worth, you should never see the grabbing action when basics or patterns are being performed because what you are describing is 'kihon' training. Practising grabbing is the next level of training where you are training the application of the basic movement. :asian:

 

[K-man]

The purpose is to help engage the rotation of the trunk in delivering a powerful punch. The pull-back, when done as a connection to the body and not as an isolated arm-effort-movement, helps with torso rotation and helps one learn to engage the full body when delivering a technique such as a punch. As has been mentioned before, this is really being driven with the legs, to cause rotation in the torso. Yes, I agree completely. But pulling back with the non-punching arm, done with a firm connection to the rotation of the torso as it is being driven by the legs, helps augment that rotation. If the effort is done with the arm alone and not as a connection to the torso, then no, it fails in that purpose.

The reason I say this is because the particular method that I train uses a much exaggerated pull-back with the non-punching arm. It is done to the point of being fully extended to the rear, with the torso completely rotated so that the shoulders and hips form a line between 12:00 and 6:00 (front to rear). And the pull-back, in my system, is understood to be intended to aid in that rotation, which drives the punching arm forward. Oh, and yes, you can also interpret other applications of the movement in the pullback as well.

So in my opinion, pulling the hand to the hip, when done correctly, is a shortened version of the same concept. Less exaggerated than the method that I practice, but the same idea put into action nonetheless. But again, that's when it's correctly linked to the rotation of the torso as driven by the legs. If it's just an arm pull, disconnected from the torso and the legs, well then maybe it's just a grab and nothing more. But as such, it has only the power of the arm and shoulder driving it, and misses the much greater power of the legs and torso.

Michael, you can achieve the same rotation of the torso with both hands in front in a normal fighting stance. There is IMO no additional benefit in pulling the hand back to carriage. In fact, as has been previously pointed out, by pulling the hand back to carriage for the reasons you are giving, that is additional rotation, you are leaving a huge gap in your defence. You will possibly get away with that in conventional sparring but you would very quickly be smacked in the head if you tried it in a close fighting situation.

The rotation I teach, and this is what is taught at the Jundokan, is the hips begin the rotation. The torso moves next but with slight delay because the body is not locked. Next to move are the shoulders, again with that fraction of delay. (By this time the hips have actually completed their work and they are back centred.). The shoulders now provide acceleration to the arms which is the culmination of the power generation for the strike. Certainly while this is happening the other hand will withdraw but it will only return fully to carriage if I am pulling something in.

The exaggerated movement you have described is also found in a couple of karate styles but certainly not Goju which is very square.

:asian:

 

[SahBumNimRush]

While I don't disagree that the basic instruction does aid in teaching body mechanics of waist torque, one can develop a similar amount of power from a 3 inch punch compared to a reverse punch when proper mechanics and timing are developed. However, I do not discount the benefits of the mechanics training as a beginner.

 

[Flying Crane]

Michael, you can achieve the same rotation of the torso with both hands in front in a normal fighting stance. There is IMO no additional benefit in pulling the hand back to carriage. In fact, as has been previously pointed out, by pulling the hand back to carriage for the reasons you are giving, that is additional rotation, you are leaving a huge gap in your defence. You will possibly get away with that in conventional sparring but you would very quickly be smacked in the head if you tried it in a close fighting situation.

I disagree. The issue is, the exaggerated movement is a training drill, but is not how you would actually fight. You would fight with shorter movements, the exaggerated movement is a tool used to develop a specific skill. In the Chinese arts, we often say, you start big to become small. The big movements help the skill become second-nature, but how it is used is a with a smaller (not exaggerated) movement. Because you used the big movement to train the skill, once you command that skill you can tap the same power using the smaller movements. But if you never train with the big (exaggerated) movements, it is much more difficult, if not impossible, to develop the full potential in that particular skill with only smaller movements. This is based on an approach that says, everything we do should be driven with full-body engagement. That's how we see it, anyway.

The rotation I teach, and this is what is taught at the Jundokan, is the hips begin the rotation. The torso moves next but with slight delay because the body is not locked. Next to move are the shoulders, again with that fraction of delay. (By this time the hips have actually completed their work and they are back centred.). The shoulders now provide acceleration to the arms which is the culmination of the power generation for the strike. Certainly while this is happening the other hand will withdraw but it will only return fully to carriage if I am pulling something in.

we would suggest you begin the rotation by driving the rear foot into the ground, which actually drives the hip thru the rotation. That brings the entire torso into the rotation. This, as you say, drives the shoulder forward and powers the punch. However, you are missing the other side of the rotation. Pulling the other hand back, with connection to the torso, helps power that rotation. When something pivots around a point, both sides of the pivot aid in that action. If you only push the punch out, you are only paying attention to one side of the rotation. When you pull back on the other hand (with proper connection to the torso), you are then working both sides of the pivot.

an analogy would be like a spigot that has two spokes that you grip to turn. If you only push on one spoke, yes you can turn the spigot but it's not so efficient. But if you grasp both spokes and push on one and pull on the other, the spigot turns more efficiently and with more authority. That is what is happening when you properly pull back the other hand when driving a punch forward. Again in the Chinese arts, we say, you go left to go right, you go forward to go back. This is an example of that concept. You go back to go forward. When you properly pull back the other hand, it drives the punching fist forward with more power.

The exaggerated movement you have described is also found in a couple of karate styles but certainly not Goju which is very square.

:asian:

Different systems manifest these ideas in different ways, and may use completely different approach. But in this discussion, people have referenced the Bubishi, which i I recall is a Chinese document? Well, i'm giving some perspective from one particular Chinese method, for what it's worth. I'm not trying to say, you need to do what I do or train in the method I train. But I'm giving perspective based on our approach to training, which simply makes a tremendous amount of sense to me.

again, for what it's worth.