Pankration Vs Traditional Asian Martial Arts.

[Chiduce]

:asian: Ami Tou Fou. Mr. Asoka is i may ask sir. How many times in your 15 years of experience in the martial arts have you been, almost choked to death; been held hostage by thugs from the streets; had a 45, 357, 9mm pointed in your face and/or at your head; been shot at from a distance; been sucker punched and temporarily knocked out to recover with the attacker standing over you; awakened from you sleep to have a stranger looking down on you ready to attack you in your sleep; had at least 5 street thugs attemp to attack you a once or 2 at a time; been awakened by an attacker choking you; been attacked to the head by a large glass object by practicing drug addicts; been set-up to be robbed by another person either male or female or both and finally ever at least maimed an attacker using your system? Yes, i have done and been through each one of these scenerio's and a bit more within my 24 years of martial studies. Each time my martial arts( kung fu, karate, kenpo, karatejutsu) whether traditional or not kept me alive and in most cases unharmed. Just wanted to know about your life experiences with this in your style! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Jay Bell]

Originally posted by asoka

First of all for those who don't know what Pankration is,it's a martial arts that combines MuayThai Kickboxing and Submission Wrestling,giving the advantage over most arts because of it's ability to fight both stand up and on ground.

You have been misinformed. Traditional arts rarely do not cover both areas of combat.

Traditional arts as in the traditional asian arts like karate,tae kwon do,kung fu,and many other arts,can be said to be of no use.

Yes, it can be said....by someone who has no idea of what they are talking about.

Let me give you my reason as well as 15yrs. experience as a martial artist.

Oh boy *grabs some popcorn*

1/ Traditional arts teach katas which are pre-arranged forms,with very few effective hidden techniques.Stances in traditional arts would never work in a real situation.

No. Kata typically do one of two things. They either teach how to move your body in that perticular style, or they teach you strategy of fundamentals. Piecing those fundamentals together and give insights on how they can be broadened and worked upon.

2/ In traditional arts a student is taught to pull back on his/her punches in fear of hurting another student.Infact most students of these styles fight in point sparring instead of full contact or continuous sparring.

Not in any traditional art that I've ever studied.

3/ The forms done in Traditional Asian Arts puts limits on students,instead of them being able to put themselves in the shoes of a real fighter.The forms are no doubt great for concentration,balance,focus,and co-ordination as a true martial artist needs,however there are better ways to train in this.These forms are useless for actual self-defense.Very few techniques would work.

No, see above. It doesn't set limits on students, it expands their concepts and methods to be able to work as a whole.

Shu Ha Ri is a concept in Japanese Budo training. Perfection of the technique is learned. Then the technique is changed and opened up....the boundries are destroyed and it's changed into every circumstance imaginable. After this is achieved, the technique is thrown away. It's interesting how that doesn't sound at all like the "traditional" in which you are referring.

4/ Katas give students a false belief that ,by repetition of these forms their fighting ability will improve,giving them a better chance of being able to defend themselves,when infact it could be making things worse by doing the exact opposite.It doesn't properly prepare you for an attack since forms are usually done going across the floor ,looking through a mirror.

Not what-so-ever. It's not a false belief that it's giving some type of ability beyond what the kata/waza is explaining.

5/ Students and those who teach these asian arts don't realize to beat a fighter you have to put yourself in their shoes.In other words to be a fighter you must train like one.Do you honestly think some attacker is going to come at you in fancy stance,making it easy for you to kick his ***?Hell no.If a mugger was going to make it easy there would be no point in learning self-defense.

Where do you come up with this information? Combat doesn't occur when things are fair. I'm curious in to what "traditional" arts you are basing these ideas.

6/ Most instructors of these asian arts don't even know the bunkai to the katas they teach,they just know how to do the forms in itself.They teach it the way they were taught,and expect you to listen and learn without being questioned about it.
If you're going to pay to learn something shouldn't you have the right to question what you are learning and expect to know how to apply what you learn? Hell ya.

The only thing I've ever learned in traditional arts beyond fundamentals was bunkai.

In Pankration,an instructor expects to be questioned and is prepared to answer and knows how to apply what he/she is teaching.

Oh, you mean like in traditional martial arts?

Pankration doesn't rely on pre-arranged techniques moving across the floor.

And neither do traditional martial arts.

In Pankration we are taught moves that are both shown and applied on a partner.Every technique involves the use of another person,never done on its own.We are taught the moves in several ways but are also taught those exact techniques may be applied in many other ways,not just limited to ways taught in class.

Wow...just like traditional martial arts.

In Pankration we don't have any fancy,but useless stances like sanchin,shicko dachi etc.we only have left and right fighting stance.

If you label such things as useless, then your understanding of the purpose of those kata aren't there. I'm not a karate-ka, nor do I pretend to be. Yet seeing Sanchin done I can see the purposes behind it. It's tragic that you spent so much time studying an art and left with such little understanding of it.

In Pankration we also are not taught to pull back on punches and kicks unlike in Traditional Asian Arts.With Pankration everything is straight to the point and full contact.

And I'm sure over-commited and un-controlled as well. However, we don't pull strikes in training either.

This is the difference between Pankration and Traditional Asian Arts.

Thank you for taking the time of your post to guess and make false assumptions based on your very limited and uneducated understanding. It was a good read...and rather entertaining. How about next time you don't base such broad judgements off of three years of watered down Karate study at the Local YMCA?

You have yourself a good day...

Jay

 

[Klondike93]

Prehaps he went to the McDojo carbon refered to in his thread

http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1943




:asian:

 

[disciple]

To Asoka:

15 yrs of experience in "traditional asian martial arts" is not enough for you to say those things. If and only if you have really learned and mastered ALL "traditional asian martial arts" and still found them useless, then you could say your misperspectives of asian martial arts. Of course that would be impossible to achieve in this life maybe after several reincarnations

salute

:asian:

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by sweeper

Well what I mean is nothing realy has been said so far, Asoka hasn't given a deffinition of what he considers a traditional art, he also hasn't supported his reasoning it's just "tradition=bad" "pankration=good" I just want to know why he thinks that.

Once again which I have already explained before but some of you still haven't clued into what I mean by traditional arts.

To me traditional arts is any asian art that sticks to tradition.An art that never changes and always sticks to katas.I believe any art stuck in the old ways because they want to stick to their tradition is traditional arts.Now understand what I mean by traditional arts?

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by Ty K. Doe

OH - MY - GOSH! This sounds like the greatest thing since sliced bread. I am going to completely give up everything else I'm learning and become the greatest pankration fighter ever. I will train 18 hours a day and no one will be able to beat me. Better than that, once I begin to learn pankration no one can ever accuse me of being in a McDojo. I will automatically become unbeatable because my ego will sooo big, so you can throw that whole boxing thread out the window.


FYI
http://pankration.com/pankration_history.html



:redeme:



:drink2tha :barf: :moon: :moon: :moon:

You're quite the smart ***.

I've seen that url before.

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by Jay Bell



Thank you for taking the time of your post to guess and make false assumptions based on your very limited and uneducated understanding. It was a good read...and rather entertaining. How about next time you don't base such broad judgements off of three years of watered down Karate study at the Local YMCA?

You have yourself a good day...

Jay

From what I have seen and experience most schools don't do both forms of combat unless they have been combined with other arts.However in my believe the part that is katas is useless but the rest might be useful.If an art teaches both grappling and stand up ,why even bother with forms?

Now You have Good Day

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by Kirk

Personally Ty, I found your sarcasm both entertaining and
refreshing. Asoka, wasn't pleasant at all with his "My art is
the supreme art and every other art sucks" attitude either.
It was a general insult to a LARGE number of people who are
members of this forum. Although he didn't directly insult anyone,
he didn't come across as a peace loving guy either. I question
his motive here. That's like a member of the KKK going and
spouting their rhetoric at an NAACP meeting. Then going "well
I didn't mean to insult anyone."

Take what I say anyway you want,all this time I have just been stating my opinion as you and everyone else has,is it my fault you're so sensitive and get insulted so easily?

I have a right to think traditional arts aren't good because of their teaching of katas.

I never once said my art is superior to others,I just stated that is what I like better about it and find it to be more reasonable,you make it sound like I am saying no one should do traditional arts.I never said that even once.By all means don't do what I think is better but what you think is and feel most comfortable with.I also said don't do traditional arts if self-defense is what you're looking for.Traditional arts is just as good as any art,I agree,but it also depends on why you want to do that and expect from an art.That is what I said in my first post I believe.


I have the right as an individual to believe whatever I want based on my martial arts experience,just as you do.If you find it insulting,don't blame me for it.

I don't care if people insult me and my beliefs and don't care what others think about me,but what I do care about is being
compared to a lovely racist group called kkk. First of all I'm not racist and second I couldn't be one of them since they hate dark people and I am dark myself.So don't compare to those ******s especially in a martial arts forum.Want to insult me go ahead just don't compare me to those freaks.

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by Jay Bell



Thank you for taking the time of your post to guess and make false assumptions based on your very limited and uneducated understanding. It was a good read...and rather entertaining. How about next time you don't base such broad judgements off of three years of watered down Karate study at the Local YMCA?

You have yourself a good day...

Jay

Whatever you say bud,although I disagree with you.You do have the right to believe and to speak your mind as this is what this post is for.

3YRS.of watered karate!!!!!!!! hold on a second,for one I did karate not for three years but for 12yrs.and second it wasn't watered down karate,I rather enjoyed it,I just found something I prefer and find more useful and in my opinion both more effective and realistic.Like I said in MY OPINION.

 

[arnisador]

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-

 

[Ty K. Doe]

By Asoka
You're quite the smart ***.

You are too kind.

By Asoka
I never once said my art is superior to others

No I believe this is what you said...

Asoka: Traditional arts as in the traditional asian arts like karate,tae kwon do,kung fu,and many other arts,can be said to be of no use.

 

[sweeper]

Originally posted by asoka



Once again which I have already explained before but some of you still haven't clued into what I mean by traditional arts.

To me traditional arts is any asian art that sticks to tradition.An art that never changes and always sticks to katas.I believe any art stuck in the old ways because they want to stick to their tradition is traditional arts.Now understand what I mean by traditional arts?

Ok let me alter m statement somewhat, how about "You have not given a specific and objective deffinition of a traditional art suitable to be used in the course of a debate on the value of such an art."

What I mean is no one can realy say "your incorrect" without knowing exactly what you mean. And for the most part you have given fairly broad sweeping examples of traditional arts, subjective statements (like "only asian arts are traditional arts") and have not specified what you mean by discriptions such as "sticks to tradition", "never changes", and "stuck in the old ways ".

I would make the statement that for all practical purposes there are no arts that have had absolutly no change. All arts have changed, asian or not, it is just a question of how much and in what way.

So let me ask some questions:

"To me traditional arts is any asian art that sticks to tradition." What traditions specificly?
"An art that never changes and always sticks to katas." No art "never changes" and what do kata have to do with the tradition of an art?
"I believe any art stuck in the old ways because they want to stick to their tradition is traditional arts." What are the old ways and how did they become tradition and when did they become tradition?
(this one's out of context but applies)"Traditional arts as in the traditional asian arts like karate,tae kwon do,kung fu,and many other arts,can be said to be of no use." All forms of Karate? All forms of Kung Fu? And in what way is Tae Kwon Do traditional.
(also out of context)"Arts like Pankration,Savate,Shootfighting,Judo(despite being an asian art from japan),Jujitsu among many others are the true arts of self-defense." All of those with the exception of JuiJitsu are martial arts that have developed from or into sports. What makes them more effective for self deffence than an art that has developed out of a need for self deffence?
Last on the list "First of all for those who don't know what Pankration is,it's a martial arts that combines MuayThai Kickboxing and Submission Wrestling,giving the advantage over most arts because of it's ability to fight both stand up and on ground." What makes Mauy Thai and Submision Wrestling non-traditional? I would argue that Mauy Thai is steeped in tradition. And what arts can't apply their fighting system to ground fighting?

 

[KumaSan]

Originally posted by sweeper

What makes Mauy Thai and Submision Wrestling non-traditional? I would argue that Mauy Thai is steeped in tradition.

I'm going to agree wholeheartedly with sweeper on this one. Muay Thai has been around, largely unchanged (not totally unchanged, but largely) for at least a couple of hundred years (2000 by some accounts, considerably less by others, I wasn't there at the start so I can't be sure). These days it's a popular art due to it's effectiveness, but most people just study Muay Thai-like fighting. Without the tradition, the soul of the art is lost.

Just my 2 cents on a subject near and dear to my heart. You may all resume your holy war now.

 

[Bod]

Congratulations on keeping this thread polite chaps. I think these sort of discussions - one way of doing things versus another - are totally necessary for any martial artist, because it makes us think about the way we train.

One of the wisest/humblest things I've ever heard an instructor say - and you won't hear this sort of thing often - was:

'Think about the deficiencies in the ways we train here, and try to work around them, because every training method has deficiencies.'

Note that whatever your fighting system - which will always be a trade-off in one way or another - you will also have a training system which also cannot be perfect. A fighting system and a training system are not the same thing.

For instance I currently train in Judo. So I can throw a bit, but my punches need more practice. This is because of my fighting system - Judo has a number of punches but not every possible style and doesn't have huge amounts of theory on punching, and my training system - punches are trained only as kata and not in randori (sparring). Of course there is the flip side - Judo is great for learning to throw while your opponent is wearing clothes (fighting system), and you can practice all of your throwing techniques at full strength (training system).

Now to the point. The great modern versus traditional debate, which I believe this thread is part of, is about both fighting systems and training methods, although the two can easily blur into each other.

Although 'modern' training methods have their (usual obvious) uses don't knock the traditional ones if you don't understand them. For instance the 'Horse stance is useless because you'll get kicked where you really don't wan't to be' argument seems ridiculous to me because many of the forward Judo throw involves some degree of horse stance - Tai Otoshi is the clearest example - and at the point of being thrown your opponent has little chance of kicking you. But the argument also has it's upside. Standing in front of an opponent while in horse stance is foolish at best. You have to have a balanced view of the training methods you use.

Fighting systems similarly have pros and cons. Often what looks like a ridiculous technique against a single opponent who is your match comes into it's own when used against multiple weaker opponents. Most fighting systems claim to deal with 'Reality', but there is no such thing. The real world is constantly shifting and a real situation for someone who has trained in the traditional kung-fu weapon of 'Wooden Bench' - great with a barstool - may be in real trouble if, having just been grabbed from behind he tries to struggle for the nearest park bench. Recognise the uses and limitations of the technique/system you are using.

Every fight experience I have ever had - win or lose - has taught me that what I thought was reality yesterday was not neccessarily real today.

 

[arnisador]

I especially liked, and will use, this:

'Think about the deficiencies in the ways we train here, and try to work around them, because every training method has deficiencies.'

 

[J-kid]

I THINK THAT.....

It really all depends some things in martial arts where designed for deffrint times, And another place. For instance i dont really think much of katas there not for everyone, But they are used in asia because there is not much room, And i sorta see what you mean, Your pankration or what not, Its only because your art conbines alot of arts that it is so good. you might be able to kick a tdk person *** because you can do grappleing and alot of hand striking in close making it hard to use tdk since its mostly kicks. Its kind of like rock paper sisscers , The rock smashs sisscers, paper wraps the rock and sisscers cuts the paper. your talking apples and Orenges . What i am trying to say diffrent things are better for diffrent people and since your art covers the 3 ranges of fighting which is grappling punching kicking. You just have a advantige now if you where just to kick with a tdker or a grappler you would proble lose because thats what they pratice, But thats just my 2 cents. Your friend judo-kid

 

[Indie12]

Damn... I missed the fight...again?....Can't we all get along?

 

[Supra Vijai]

Well this has been an... interesting read... especially as someone from purely TMA background who highly values the traditions and philosophies. Lots of good back and forth when you get down to it and a lot of interesting points raised. I was originally going to just post the histories of the arts and leave it at that but it's been done already so too late..

Just one quick point to the OP though, you say that the forms and kata are useless, totally agree if you look at them as a be all end all approach to modern combat. Try taking a slightly deeper approach though and understand the tactics, strategies and philosophies expressed in those arts (while keeping context in mind!) and you may find you suddenly get a lot more out of them. That's something we are constantly encouraged to do in our own classes. Also just because an art is traditional does not automatically mean it's not going to have adapted or be adaptable to suit more modern environments. Just some thoughts from a MA newbie...

 

[Bruno@MT]

Damn... I missed the fight...again?....Can't we all get along?

Yeah you missed the fight. It was over and already forgotten for 9 years by the time you decided to dredge it up again for no apparent reason.

Virtually everybody involved in the original discussion has left. There is no point in posting questions or replying to posts of people who are not here anymore to reply.
So I closed this thread. Feel free to start a new discussion on this topic if you feel it needs to be discussed further.