Drills and their use

bcbernam777

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I wanted to start this thread with a view of gaining other peoples thoughts of drills and their real place in Martial Arts. Before I continue let me define what I mean by drills, the repeating of patterns of techniques, singulary or in combination in attack and defense for the purpose of practicing those techniques, or practicing the attack/defense of certain zones of the body. In my opinion performing these types of drills tends to create what I refer to as dead hands, they trap our brain and freeze it into a set subconcious track that in a real situation will be repeated automatically in a real life situation. For example if someone learning Wing chun drills a Tan Sau in in a certain way, then they become fixed in that way, they lack aliveness and fluidity.

In my opinion the only way to drill so called technique is in broken patterns, with no indication of where the attack is coming from, either through sparring or in some type of reaction based training approach.

Not only do I want yu to post your opinion on drills, i want you to let me know what you view as the zenith in training.
 

7starmantis

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Drills have their place. The "Dead Hands" you are refering to come from doing drills only. Drills help get you used to being punched and kicked, moved, attacked, teaches you to yield, move, defend. etc.

If you do drills alone you fail, if you do sparring alone you fail.....in my opinion.

7sm
 
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still learning

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Hello, The primary purpose of during the same drills over and over is to let our body react before the brain can think what to do next. Let it become a natural reflex.

When you first learn to run, you must learn to see the holes in the ground,the small objects in front of you and far away things, to avoid as you get closer, you will learn to scan the areas around you near and far. We learn also by errors and mistakes.

Today I bet you can run without thinking of all the things in front of you and can day dream /or think of other things as you are running?

Doing the drills is almost the same thing! You want to get to the point of not having to think of each movement.

Then you will become a true Master of the Arts.......no one will be perfect...but one can get closer.....

If someone yells "duck" do you have a natural reflex for this? If you do..you master ducking!

Same as "catch" if your hands reach out...you are getting closer to mastering catching...................

Just my thoughts, hope this is what you were looking at? ...........Aloha
 

Nanalo74

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bcbernam777 said:
I wanted to start this thread with a view of gaining other peoples thoughts of drills and their real place in Martial Arts. Before I continue let me define what I mean by drills, the repeating of patterns of techniques, singulary or in combination in attack and defense for the purpose of practicing those techniques, or practicing the attack/defense of certain zones of the body. In my opinion performing these types of drills tends to create what I refer to as dead hands, they trap our brain and freeze it into a set subconcious track that in a real situation will be repeated automatically in a real life situation. For example if someone learning Wing chun drills a Tan Sau in in a certain way, then they become fixed in that way, they lack aliveness and fluidity.

In my opinion the only way to drill so called technique is in broken patterns, with no indication of where the attack is coming from, either through sparring or in some type of reaction based training approach.

Not only do I want yu to post your opinion on drills, i want you to let me know what you view as the zenith in training.

I agree to an extent. Bruce Lee railed against what he called "memorized routines". In my opinion, drills are meant to develop attributes and also for line-familiarization.
In our system, as in many FMAs, we practice a drill called "sombrada". I attack my opponent with the stick, knife, etc. He defends then feeds me along any angle he chooses; I defend then return. We go back and forth in a free flow. This helps to develop our reflexes and become familiar with all the lines of attack. That way, no matter what angle someone comes at me, I know how to deal with it because I've spent hours being attacked from every possible angle.
To break out of the comfort zone, we mix and match (stick vs. dagger, double stick vs. single stick, empty hand vs. weapons, etc.)
We also employ many drills to develop sensitivity including chi sao, higot hubud lubud, siko siko and many others.
Again, the drills are for developing attributes. Don't think that a real fight is gonna look anything like what you do in the classroom or you will get hurt.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com
 
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MJS

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I agree with 7sm and Vic! Drills do have their place, but they do need to be expanded upon. They do build reflexes, sensitivity, etc., but you need to challenge yourself while doing them, to take yourself to that next level. Attempting disarms while running through various drills is one way of doing this.

Mike
 

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Another thing we can look at is focus pad training. You have countless combos that can be trained. Does this mean that the fighter is going to throw those punches in that exact same order? No, but the drills are giving him practice in throwing the punches against a moving target, reacting with strikes to where the targets are, keeping his hands up, etc.

Mike
 

AdrenalineJunky

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MJS said:
Another thing we can look at is focus pad training. You have countless combos that can be trained. Does this mean that the fighter is going to throw those punches in that exact same order? No, but the drills are giving him practice in throwing the punches against a moving target, reacting with strikes to where the targets are, keeping his hands up, etc.

Mike

Which is why you spar after drilling. We do--in this order--shadow boxing, bag drills, pad drills, partner drills (like pad drills but alternating using boxing gloves instead of focus mitts/Thai Pads; makes for very fast paced drills, with possibility of getting hit if you're slow or are not doing something right), shadow sparring (shadow boxing each other), sparring and conditioning. Sparring is where you test your ability to use combos in a non-controlled environment.
 

Danny T

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bcbernam777 said:
I wanted to start this thread with a view of gaining other peoples thoughts of drills and their real place in Martial Arts. Before I continue let me define what I mean by drills, the repeating of patterns of techniques, singulary or in combination in attack and defense for the purpose of practicing those techniques, or practicing the attack/defense of certain zones of the body. In my opinion performing these types of drills tends to create what I refer to as dead hands, they trap our brain and freeze it into a set subconcious track that in a real situation will be repeated automatically in a real life situation. For example if someone learning Wing chun drills a Tan Sau in in a certain way, then they become fixed in that way, they lack aliveness and fluidity.

Apparently you are against drills. For use in martial arts I define Drills as the practice of movements utilized in a martial way for the purpose of developing physical and mental attributes for use by the practitioner in a physical confrontation.

bcbernam777 said:
In my opinion the only way to drill so called technique is in broken patterns, with no indication of where the attack is coming from, either through sparring or in some type of reaction based training approach.

Oh, so you aren’t against drills only those which are repeated? So you never do the same movements?

Now you’ve got my curiosity. So you don’t drill movements you only spar them. What about the beginners are they not shown, instructed, taught the movements, positions, and transitions and allowed to work them some in order to be able to use them in a sparring situation? Or, are they simply thrown to the wolves and learn simply by sparring?

By the way how do you define technique?


bcbernam777 said:
Not only do I want yu to post your opinion on drills, i want you to let me know what you view as the zenith in training.

The zenith in training is when the performer is able create and apply techniques of defense or attack with out thinking only responding correctly with the proper timing, rhythm, speed and power.

Many years ago when playing football the coaches "drilled" us by running through tires repeatly. We also performed repeated blocking drills against the blocking sled. Not once did the tires move in a manner which was not expected and not once did the blocking sled or dummys ever try to block back. I all the games I played in during my football days did I ever encounter tires or blocking sleds during a game. However the attributes gained by performing the "drills" repeatedly enhanced our abilities to perform the techniques needed during the games.

There are Forms, Drills, and Applications. Each has their place and must be used accordingly.

Danny

 

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They are just another way of learning. As long as you know you can do the techniques out of sequence i see noting wrong with them.
 

jdinca

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Our school considers drills to be a component of the overall training regimen. It helps build muscles that probably haven't been used this way and it also builds muscle memory for basic movements of the system. We encourage instructors to develop their own drills for their classes as that changes things up a bit and helps keep the students from getting bored.

That said, it definitely can't be a stand alone and has to be mixed up with training in your techniques and sparring when you achieve a level where you can learn from it.
 

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everything musy become instinct...It must get to the point to where you will react without thinking. Martial Arts should come to you like breathing, hence the repitition. Practice Practice Practice, make it all second nature.
 

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bcbernam777 said:
I wanted to start this thread with a view of gaining other peoples thoughts of drills and their real place in Martial Arts.

Not only do I want yu to post your opinion on drills, i want you to let me know what you view as the zenith in training.
My feeling here is that drills are just a tool in training the body. A very useful tool, but one of many. I don't see any particular training method as being better or worse; everything helps in some way. In the same respect, I don't personally feel that there is a particular "zenith" in training, though in a way I suppose that the full contact spar is as close to a "culmination" as we might find, short of actually becoming involved in a genuine, unexpected self defence situation. Either way, there are no short cuts, there is no magic answer, and in my opinion, the training is never complete. Drills help, for reasons outlined in posts upthread, and are a really useful way of developing attributes. I guess my counter question would be, what other way of developing sensitivity and line familiarity would one use without employing drills?
 

Nanalo74

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Flatlander said:
Drills help, for reasons outlined in posts upthread, and are a really useful way of developing attributes. I guess my counter question would be, what other way of developing sensitivity and line familiarity would one use without employing drills?

Keep getting whacked in the head with a stick until you learn to get yours up. :uhyeah:

Vic www.combatartsusa.com
 

Danny T

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Nanalo74 said:
Keep getting whacked in the head with a stick until you learn to get yours up.

We use a "drill" like that often. The question was, "what other way of developing sensitivity and line familiarity would one use without employing drills?"

Danny
 

ap Oweyn

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Danny T said:
Apparently you are against drills.

I think you might have missed the point of his post. He's not saying that drills are useless. He's saying that to be beneficial, they have to be practiced in a certain manner.

Oh, so you aren’t against drills only those which are repeated? So you never do the same movements?


Again, he's suggesting that drills performed in a certain manner lose their usefulness. A rote repetition and adherence to a drill, for example. It's putting the cart before the horse. The purpose of a drill is to internalize a necessary skill. But if the drill strays too far from the skill it's intended to internalize, then all you're doing is gaining mastery over the drill itself. The leap from that to reality becomes to big.

Now you’ve got my curiosity. So you don’t drill movements you only spar them. What about the beginners are they not shown, instructed, taught the movements, positions, and transitions and allowed to work them some in order to be able to use them in a sparring situation? Or, are they simply thrown to the wolves and learn simply by sparring?

I'm surprised at the ire here. At no point did he suggest not doing drills. He made a commentary on how they're implemented. Perhaps he didn't word it clearly enough for you. But good grief. If poor wording is always going to draw sarcasm like this, do you really think it's going to encourage people to try expressing themselves?


Stuart
 

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ap Oweyn said:
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I think you might have missed the point of his post. He's not saying that drills are useless. He's saying that to be beneficial, they have to be practiced in a certain manner.



Again, he's suggesting that drills performed in a certain manner lose their usefulness. A rote repetition and adherence to a drill, for example.
It's putting the cart before the horse. The purpose of a drill is to internalize a necessary skill. But if the drill strays too far from the skill it's intended to internalize, then all you're doing is gaining mastery over the drill itself. The leap from that to reality becomes to big.



I'm surprised at the ire here. At no point did he suggest not doing drills. He made a commentary on how they're implemented. Perhaps he didn't word it clearly enough for you. But good grief. If poor wording is always going to draw sarcasm like this, do you really think it's going to encourage people to try expressing themselves?


Stuart

Not trying to be sarcastic. Though I know it seems that way. He wanted to know other people’s thoughts about drills in the martial arts. The first post and question was defined with the statement of: “Before I continue let me define what I mean by drills…” and he defines drills. He continues with saying performing these types of drills trap our brain and freeze it. What does this? The use of drills, which he defined.
He communicated based upon his definition and through subsequent statements he didn’t like drills.

However, the definition suddenly changes to: broken patterns, with no indication of where the attack is coming from, either through sparring or in some type of reaction based training approach. So if the drills are sparring then he likes them.

He stated; “the only way to drill is in broken patterns…, through sparring.”
Sparring is not drilling. It is by definition, is the act of boxing or fighting with control and care.
Drilling is the act of one who drills. Drill in Martial art is: to train in military exercises or movements, to instruct by methodical exercises or movements, to impart by methodical exercises or movements, to engage in methodical exercises or movements.
Methodical: given to or characterized by orderly arrangement
Drilling would be to be engaged in orderly arranged exercises or movements.

So are we drilling or are we sparring?


“he's suggesting that drills performed in a certain manner lose their usefulness. A rote repetition and adherence to a drill, for example.”

That is not what he stated. What he stated was his definition for drills and performing drills create dead hands.


“The purpose of a drill is to internalize a necessary skill. But if the drill strays too far from the skill it's intended to internalize, then all you're doing is gaining mastery over the drill itself. The leap from that to reality becomes to big.”

I agree with this, however that is not what he stated. What he said was the only way to drill so called technique is through sparring or a reaction based approach.
My question to that statement was how do you define technique? He brought up something he calls “so called technique” I wanted to know what is so called technique.

“He made a commentary on how they're implemented. Perhaps he didn't word it clearly enough for you. But good grief. If poor wording is always going to draw sarcasm like this, do you really think it's going to encourage people to try expressing themselves?”

Sorry to have come off so sarcastic. That wasn’t my intention. I am attempting to understand his question based upon His Definition. …Repeated patterns of technique. He then uses a different definition for his opinion of drills within the commentary, which he calls sparring.

Danny
 

ap Oweyn

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Danny T said:
Sorry to have come off so sarcastic. That wasn’t my intention. I am attempting to understand his question based upon His Definition. …Repeated patterns of technique. He then uses a different definition for his opinion of drills within the commentary, which he calls sparring.

Danny

As I said, it may have been worded vaguely. And I don't have a doubt in my mind that your intentions are good. I'm just suggesting that, if the intention is to understand someone else's position, then a certain amount of diplomacy is probably in order. This conversation would go a lot smoother if we could all assume that the other is doing their best to convey their idea, but that the idea itself becomes clearer through the conversation. If we assume that the idea itself is crystal clear the first time out, then we start tearing into it when it's probably not warranted.

Sorry to sound sanctimonious. It just bugs me that we have this incredible resource for exchanging ideas. But because of the nature of online communication, we throw it away in favour of little arguments all the time.


Stuart
 
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bcbernam777

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Danny T said:
Apparently you are against drills. For use in martial arts I define Drills as the practice of movements utilized in a martial way for the purpose of developing physical and mental attributes for use by the practitioner in a physical confrontation.

Then our definitions differ, OK let me make it clear, I was a little Vauge, the types of drills I am against are technique drills, not attribute drills. It is technique drills that can create "dead hands", Attribute drilling instills in a student a sense of a principle or energy e.g. Lop Sau develops the Chum Kui Energy. Does that make it clearer.

Danny T said:
Oh, so you aren’t against drills only those which are repeated? So you never do the same movements?

Of course i do the same movement, the lop Sau contains the same pattern, Bong--Whu to Lop--Punch and back, interspersed in this is Pak--Throat strike, note the key word is interspersed this interspersion creates a situation and a mental attitude that is alert, and in a ready state, as opposed to simply "taking it easy because you know what is coming next".


Danny T said:
Now you’ve got my curiosity. So you don’t drill movements you only spar them. What about the beginners are they not shown, instructed, taught the movements, positions, and transitions and allowed to work them some in order to be able to use them in a sparring situation? Or, are they simply thrown to the wolves and learn simply by sparring?

If it is techniques you are talking about, then no, we dont drill them for the sake of drilling them, as a matter of fact Yip Man never taught that way either but was still capable of producing pretty capable fighters. Of course beginners are taught the movements etc, this is a small part of the purpose of the forms, to outlay the fundamentals, the techniques and structure. They are then taught application through Chi Sau (which by the way is labeled an energy "drill"), eventually these are utilised in sparring, and I see no problem with throwing anyone to the wolves, and no they cant work in any order, there is no order in a real fight, only what is exsists, not what we want there to be, as bruce said your oponanant is a human being, fluid and alive, in a real fight you are to folloq his order, to gain the upper hand, not impose your order on him. The moment you apply a fixed order you trap yourself by your own self imposed boundaries, and limit your fluidity. As for being thrown to the wolves, since when is fighting the sport of lambs

Danny T said:
By the way how do you define technique?

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