Well there might not be many unarmed fist fights or 1 on 1 fights in U.S,but here you are wrong,because in Canada there are still lots of 1 on 1 fights and unarmed fights.
Fights or muggings? There is a diffrence, I said there aren't many unarmed 1 on 1 muggings and to the best of my knowledge there aren't (I don't recall my sources off hand though and it may take me a little bit to dig up the info) I'm not simply refering to a fight 1 on 1 I'm talking about a situation where there is little escalation, a suprise attack 1 on 1 where you have no choice but to fight. most any other situation you can run away if not walk away.
Pankration only means "All Powers" not game of all powers.
Well it doesn't truly mean "game of all powers" but it certainly doesn't mean "all powers" Pan=all krat=strength the ion suffex makes it refer to some sorta action, the ussage though was either "all powers competition" or "all powers excercise" so on a basic level it was a game. Also it only exsisted as a sport it wasn't widely used on battle fields (that we know of) however limited period records do limit our knowledge of the art. However we do know it did evolve from two 1 on 1 sports, wrestling and boxing and was sorta the best of both worlds (sorta like how the UFC marketed it's self early on)
Pankration is a sport plus more infact it is an art of self-defense or street-defense,so in that case you are absolutely wrong when you say it isn't.
well the name pankration as I statd above wasn't a refference to self deffence or street deffence, if what you practice involves those aspects that's great, however that changes the thred from "pankration vs traditional MA" to something more along the lines of "<your style of pankration> vs traditional MA" a suttle diffrence but a big one as most fighters who say they practice pancration or practice an art with a derivative name of pankration do not specificly include street combat as a part of that training (that is to say if you go to an instructor who teaches "pankration" odds are you will be learning a form of NHB fighting)
It will save someones *** on the street alot more,and quicker then any traditional asian art like karate.
that's an opinion and I think it's one based on concieved views of a traditional martial art based on limited and/or bad experience. what makes a pankration fighter good isn't the tecnique or any special tactic in fighting but rather the training. alot of so called traditional schools have very lax training however this has little to do with tradition, that is to say traditionaly east asian martialartists traind very hard, the lack of training in north america is more due to the instructors and the student base, mot people don't wana work out as hard and so the instructors don't push and/or the instructor practiced ion a school where people didn't wana work hard and doesn't push his students, but once again that has nothing to do with the style.
You're right we don't learn to fight against multiple attackers or weapons,but chances of having to is rare anyways
the chances of having to fight are rare period. you have a far greater chace of getting hit by a car or dying in a car accident than you do of getting bludgeoned to death. most situations where an attacker doesn't have a wepon you can get out of, there is no reason to fight. if you go into a fight because you want to that's something totaly diffrent, it's not deffence that's agretion but it's pritty rare that you can't escape a 1 on 1.
You may learn to fight multiple attackers on street in stuff like karate,but when it comes down to reality it would never work.
In most cases where it is for example 5 on 1,most people would basically "**** their pants" before even thinking of defending themselves,despite amount of training in martial arts.An automatic reaction by human nature would be to be scared or threatened by that many attackers.I don't care how hard you train for multiple attackers when it comes to reality,chances are you'll hesitate do to anything and at same time get your *** kicked unless you're some kind of Bruce Lee or Jet Li.
I think this is an opinion, I havn't seen any evidance that a martial artist will freeze when fighting multiple attackers or a wepon wielding foe. sometimes people freeze when they get hit with a knife, but not simply freeze when facing attackers. Now I can't speak from experience because I have never been attacked like that, however I do know people who have, people with absolutly no martial arts training and they did fight and they did get out. The object isn't to beat down 5 guys, it's to survive, if you feint at one, bob under a punch and sprint off than you won, you lived. That's is what I mean, I'm not suggesting that a martial artist can fight large groups and defeat every last one. the way you fight groups is you move around and you keep distance, your object is to prevent them from circling you. Additionaly, most of the time when people "rat pack" it is because they feal they can't take someone one on one or two on one, that is usualy because they are small or lack fighting ability, this genneraly translates into an advantage for you, it means you have a better chance of survivng a 1 on 1 encounter, so the object is to get in fast hit him and move, you want to cause serious dammage fast for psychological advantage. granted every situation is diffrent, I see know reason why someone could not train to avoid death or serious injury fighting multiple opponants.
When you train to protect yourself or others against multiple attackers,which most arts don't really teach as they claim to anyways,the students don't all come at one of the students with full force or with each holding knives,therefore the teachings of defending against multiple attackers can be very missleading and useless.Chances are if you try to use what you learn against several assailants on the street,you're going to end up dead or at least in the hospital.
that's another assumption that isn't nessisaraly true, some schools don't but if you are training for self deffence and weapons and/or multiple attackers are a posability in your neck of the woods than I would say you probably should. You probably wouldn't start students off training full force and you probably wouldn't do it too often to avoid injury. I would suggest you train more specific to a senario, for example it's 1 on 3 you have to get from your starting location to a door, give those 3 a good 30 seconds to plan their attack strategy just so they are all on the same page (a group of attackers probably will know their roles) and than let them go at it. Also don't train unarmed against weapons unless you don't cary a weapon, and if you don't cary a weapon than ddo train unarmed and you will see that against even a single attacker your chances of surviving a fight with an armed opponant are slim (even if you survive you probably got hit). in my opinion anyone serious about deffence should use the best weapon legaly available.
People like to act tough and say they're not scared to fight more then 2 guys at the same time but in reality they know deep down inside of them the chances of them being able to is slim.One in a million people would actually be able to kick *** when ganged up by alot of people unlessthey have their friends with them too,
but then that's more a brawl then anything.Also if confronted by a group of people chances are each one of them has either a knife or gun,even knife defense or gun defense won't do anything against more then one person with a knife,or gun but may help one on one.
I agree with the first part and people have to be honest about their ability.
gun deffence in my opinion is 99% luck.. it works when the gun misfires or the perosn turns their head. knife deffence when you are un armed is also alot of luck, I can deffenatly disarm a knife if the attacker gives my a nice telegraphed long range thrust (a feed) but in actual combat situations only someone who knew abolutly nothing about blade combat (or maybe someone mimicking a bad movie) would do that. in a knife fight you are gona get cut, unless they have a REALY dull knife you are probably gona get a bad cut. So cary a weapon that gives you range. And knife deffence (when you are armed) will help against multiple knife wielding attackers if you train to deffend against them)
No art will save your *** against multiple fighters especially ones with weapons,so it's crazy to even bring that up.If you win a fight against multiple attackers it's most probably because you're strong and quick by nature and very intimdating against your attackers due to size.
Why? I see no reason why "no art could save your *** against multiple fighters" as far as intimidation goes, odds are if you are intimidating they won't attack you. as far as strength and speed go, you can train for both.
Against several attackers you're going to lose,whether you're 200lbs of plain muscle and your attackers are 200lbs of fat.
why would you lose?
Traditional weapons will do **** on the street except for maybe the bo,since a piece of wood lieing on ground can be used in same way against a knife.
again why? if you are good with a weapon that can be used to fight common street weapons (clubs and knives) and you cary the wepon wether it's a tonfa or a small sword, why won't it help? I personaly think it would and see absolutly no reason why it wouldn't.
I'd like to see you try using your multiple attack self-defense techniques against a bunch of Canada's Hells Angels or the Italian Mafia.You'd be toast.They'd kill you before you have the chance to do anything to them.
I would have to resort to the good old american traditional self deffence... "Use a gun" ;-)
unfortunatly they probably use guns too *L* well if I got the drop on em I could take out one or two at leaste.
Nothing really ever prepares you a 100% for a real fight ,whether pad,ring fights and arm bars or not,but your chances of defending yourself are higher when you know self-defense,but not guaranteed of course.Life has no guarantees,however learning katas doesn't even come close to preparing you for a real life situation even if it's only one on one.
I agree 100% but I would also say hitting a bag doens't prepare you, neither does lifting weights, kata is just a training tool like any other it is not an end only a means.
I know arm bars won't work on more then one person at a time,but I never said it would.Just as I never said ring fights would either.Ring fights are the closest you can come to fighting in an one on one fight obviously not multiple attackers,but Traditional asian arts definitely won't help you against multiple attackers either,not even one on one.
Well that also deppends on how you apply it, if you get a standing armbar you can hyper extend the arm, if you take some one down than get an armbar you can do the same or cause serious tissue dammage, basicly you can take out an arm with an arm bar, you gota apply it realy fast and have a snap to it kinda like a snap in a punch (catch em off guard) when you do it like that it doens't take long at all and you just severly limited 1 opponant or you took him out of the fight, also a standing arm bar can be used to manipulate your opponants position and as such can help your relative position for tactical purposes. As far as your statement about traditional arts.. traditional arts without competition are usualy not traditional arts, that is to say most traditional arts only did away with combat in the last hundred or so years, you either sparred, got challenges, or had real combat experience. So basicly what I'm saying is it's a lack of realistic sparring (and perhaps conditioning) that is a result of any defficet in skill between a modern and traditional style and it only truely applies to schools who have broken with tradition.
I believe you said earlier Thai boxers don't train full out all the time,because of brain damage and injuries!!!!!!!!!! Now that's definitely not true.We train full out each class.
Full contact as in you hit hard or full contact as in you treat it like a sanctioned match and go for a KO ? and what I said was
Most boxers do not train regularly at full power, nor do thai boxers.
Because most don't. I said most not all. And as far as injuries you guys have ghot to have ALOT. Full contact = lots of knock outs, that's REALY dangerious...
I believe you also said we don't use stuff like joint locks in our sparring,now I really have to laugh,actually it is the opposite ,in my school students fight from stand up (muaythai)and take opponent to ground and grapple from there.Sometimes they grapple from stand up position too and when we take person to ground in a match we use submissions.
I didn't say that, closest thing I said was arm bars won't work on someone holding a knife. I am well aware of the grappaling content of pankration schools, I mean it would be kinda weird having a school not teach grappaling when pankration was formed as a combo of grecko wrestling and boxing.
For example: if I knee you in the chest and you bend forward I may flip or throw you to ground get into mount position and do an arm bar.We always do submissions in our Pankration fights ,however we don't use submissions if we're only sparring muay thai.Yes people do get hurt,but with or without submissions someone can still get hurt.Never seen a busted arm in our tournaments yet(person taps out),but I have seen broken noses and pulled ankles,hyper extented knee caps and people get knocked out unconcious.Accidents happen in all sports or martial arts though.
Well what I meant about sport not being the same as street fighting was the limitations in sport can have an effect of teching people not to deffend themselves enough. to give an example of what I mean I will use one of my freinds as an example, He had some experience in judo, sport judo(all they did was train for sport it wasn't a martial art school) he only trained for about a year so he never passed white belt but he was somewhat adept at grappaling and has an advantage over me (and also prefers the range where as I prefer to kick) now when we spar some times I shoot in on him, he doesn't sprall much but he tends to try to catch me in a guiatten(sp) choke the problem is 1: I'm kinda hard to choke out by constricting blood flow, I don't know why I just am, and that choke is one that cuts your air before your blood so it takes longer, unless you are realy strong it's hard to take someone out in 3 seconds. now this puts him in an advantagious position in sparring however that is only because I genneraly don't punch him in the groin (for safety reasons) now when I do deside to give him an uppper cut he drops like a stone. (few guys train to take that kinda blow ;-)) my point is becase of sport training in which people don't throw attacks to the groin and because in sparring we are wearing a cup and even than we don't attack the groin he did something that wasn't the brightest (since we train for self deffence and not sport there is nothing gained by beating someone with a method that can only work in sparring. Simularly when we are sparing he neglects to deffend against punches in a ground fight as well is eye gauges in grappaling, this is obviously not so good. now I know you guys most likely hit each other on the ground so that isn't an issue, and I'm not saying you guys fall into any of the traps my freind did. I simply am trying to illustrate the kinda problems that can evolve from sports fighting, most of the time you won't know you have a given weakness untill someone points it out to you. Now I know what you are probably thinking, the full contact fights of a ring are about the most realistic safe place to practice and it is better to be good with some basic techniques than to be average with those same technique and have a few dirty tricks. My responce is why can't you use sparring geared twards street deffence effectivly? if you pad up and go at each other full force or near full force in strewet like situations, and include some dirty stuff like groin kicking/punching won't you be better in a street fight? This of course assumes that you train like a fighter, you train hard and realisticly.. And no I'm not saying kata are the key to this just that it isn't beond the scope of traditional arts.
Our fights are usually won either by submission or knockout,so it is stupid and ignorant to say we don't use our submissions in tournaments,we even use chokes.
No comment already adressed this
Our style and others similar to it are the closest you can get to a real fight.
I think the closest you could get is if you wore some kinda of shoe (like sevat) because use shoes to fight is very diffrent than fighting without shoes (thai boxing) both toe strikes and heal strikes become much more valuable.
If you like the art you're in though,well then stick to it and good for you.Hope the best for you in whatever art you do or chose to do.
Right back at you.
