Sport And TMA....Again

[Aiki Lee]

I was saying that a Karateka is more likely to break their hands punching someone than a boxer would because a boxer focuses on punching.

Why do boxers wrap their wrists? Why do they wear gloves?

 

[Hanzou]

Why do boxers wrap their wrists? Why do they wear gloves?

To protect their hands and wrists from injury. Also to prevent the spread of disease. Considering the sport, that makes sense.

 

[Cyriacus]

Ill just throw in that there are more broken hands in MMA than you might expect with their wraps and gloves. Sorta makes me think, anyway.

 

[ballen0351]

Ill just throw in that there are more broken hands in MMA than you might expect with their wraps and gloves. Sorta makes me think, anyway.

Right it's not called a Boxers Fracture for nothing

 

[K-man]

To protect their hands and wrists from injury. Also to prevent the spread of disease. Considering the sport, that makes sense.

They didn't know what a disease was before around the 1860s. There certainly nothing anywhere to suggest that preventing the spread of disease has anything to do with the wearing of gloves. If disease prevention was even a consideration there would be rules governing the sterilisation of equipment before fights. Boxing gloves have been around for a thousand years and for modern boxing compulsory since 1867.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_glove

 

[Takai]

So, what are your thoughts? Do people in the arts need preset techs. to use as a base, to defned against the things I mentioned above, or is just pure fighting skill, such as we'd see in the ring, good enough?

After 18 pages...any chance of getting back to the OP?

 

[ballen0351]

After 18 pages...any chance of getting back to the OP?

OK whats your opinion

 

[K-man]

Regardless, all of that is irrelevant. The point is that Bjj revolutionized MA via competition.

Yes it has, but maybe for a reason different to what you might think.

That really wasn't Kframe's point. His point was that all those dirty tricks proved ineffective even in a sport environment. Vale Tudo for example allowed a lot of dirty fighting, and Gjj still did very well.

In terms of ground fighting, it's the most comprehensive system around. I'd definitely recommend it for women's self defense because not only do they learn how to fight out of compromising positions, but they will more than likely spend the majority of their training sparring with larger guys on top of them trying to control them. Bjj is also one of the few arts that truly don't require a great deal of strength to be effective.

'Dirty tricks' were not only effective. They were too brutal for an emerging sport to allow.

Yes, we know the Gracies were defeated. The point was that people were actively using Bjj in situations where dirty tricks were employed, and Bjj did just fine.

No, when 'dirty tricks' were allowed, the Gracies used them.

Can they work? Sure. Would I depend on scratching, spitting or biting to stop an attack? No. They're low percentage attacks that are more likely to piss off your attacker more (and get you a blood-borne disease) instead of stopping them. Additionally, if I'm close enough to bite or scratch someone, I'd prefer to choke them, or dislocate one of their body parts.

Yeah right. The reason you use them is because you are not in a position to do the other things. Nobody has suggested that scratching or biting were primary techniques.

But, back to the OP!

I'm going to throw up a proposition from a different angle. To be honest I haven't watched a lot of UFC etc as it really doesn't grab me. However I had heard about the early matches being quite brutal, with almost no rules. So I have been doing some reading and I did find this video of some of those early bouts. They are certainly brutal but the thing that jumps out is how few BJJ guys and how many guys from other styles are competing. Why was this the case then but not now?

Why is it now that now nearly everyone ends up on the floor grappling? I'll put it to you that the rule changes that took away the major techniques of all the reality based systems left only the sport based systems in the competition. It has been stated that the techniques banned are low percenters but in fact this is not true. They are the techniques used to win in almost all those early brutal fights. Number one technique is the elbow strike using the point of the elbow.

Now, I know the video is a long one but I just ask people to watch a few of the bouts. In particular the fight won by Royce Gracie, from the 15:00 mark and the very next one of Son vs Hackney which starts at about 20:00. In particular notice Royce Gracie using head butts and knees to the groin. When he is getting pounded and looking like losing he grabs his opponent's hair and hangs on for dear life. In the next round you will see Son getting his groin pounded as Hackney grabs his trachea with the other hand and threatens to choke him out or damage the larynx.

So here it is again ... please take a few minutes to watch a bit of it.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tCzdbyJnN_w

I contend that what was in the early UFC was closer to RBSD than what you see now that is a sanitised version and far more suited to BJJ practitioners. So, if what I think is correct, why would any RBSD guys want to fight in the UFC with the equivalent of their hands tied behind their backs?

WRT the OP, sport has always been an option for TMA practitioners but for the past 60 years their have been a lot of rules regulating the competition that has changed the face of that art. In particular, Judo was actually jujutsu but in the main no longer includes the kicks and strikes, Japanese based karate that has lost a lot of the hands on combat in favour of points sparring, Kyokushin different again because its competition bans punches to the head, and TKD which in competition has in the main excluded punching.

Maybe some of the watering down of the Japanese martial arts stems from the ban on teaching martial arts imposed by the Americans after the War or maybe a lot of people were just sick of violence.
:asian:

 

[Hanzou]

I'm going to throw up a proposition from a different angle. To be honest I haven't watched a lot of UFC etc as it really doesn't grab me. However I had heard about the early matches being quite brutal, with almost no rules. So I have been doing some reading and I did find this video of some of those early bouts. They are certainly brutal but the thing that jumps out is how few BJJ guys and how many guys from other styles are competing. Why was this the case then but not now?

Why is it now that now nearly everyone ends up on the floor grappling? I'll put it to you that the rule changes that took away the major techniques of all the reality based systems left only the sport based systems in the competition. It has been stated that the techniques banned are low percenters but in fact this is not true. They are the techniques used to win in almost all those early brutal fights. Number one technique is the elbow strike using the point of the elbow.

After Royce dominated the first few UFCs, fighters realized that in order to have a chance they needed to learn ground fighting. That's why everyone ends up on the floor grappling, because if you don't at least have a working knowledge of Bjj, you're going to get subbed or choked.

Why weren't there a lot of Bjj fighters in early UFC? Because no one in the states was really learning Bjj, and it took many years for the art to get dispersed to the point it has now. Relson Gracie for example was training people out of a garage in Honolulu around the time of the first UFC, and working a job in construction to help sustain himself and his family. Today, he has hundreds of schools throughout the United States. After Bjj took off, other Brazilian masters came up from Brazil to teach in the U.S. Now there's a Bjj school in just about every state.

Now, I know the video is a long one but I just ask people to watch a few of the bouts. In particular the fight won by Royce Gracie, from the 15:00 mark and the very next one of Son vs Hackney which starts at about 20:00. In particular notice Royce Gracie using head butts and knees to the groin. When he is getting pounded and looking like losing he grabs his opponent's hair and hangs on for dear life. In the next round you will see Son getting his groin pounded as Hackney grabs his trachea with the other hand and threatens to choke him out or damage the larynx.

So here it is again ... please take a few minutes to watch a bit of it.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tCzdbyJnN_w

I contend that what was in the early UFC was closer to RBSD than what you see now that is a sanitised version and far more suited to BJJ practitioners. So, if what I think is correct, why would any RBSD guys want to fight in the UFC with the equivalent of their hands tied behind their backs?

Er... The Gracies won those early UFC tournaments, and they usually won them within a matter of minutes, so how were the rules unfavorable to Bjj? The Gracies actually left the UFC when new stricter rules were put into place.

Also how exactly do the rules tie RBSD guys up, but not MT, Boxing, Bjj, and other arts? Are RBSD folks incapable of adapting their tools?

The most interesting thing about the Royce vs Kimo fight is that Kimo was a hell of a lot bigger than Gracie at the time, and had studied grappling in order to counter Bjj.

Royce still subbed him.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The most interesting thing about the Royce vs Kimo fight is that Kimo was a hell of a lot bigger than Gracie at the time, and had studied grappling in order to counter Bjj.

Royce still subbed him.

Actually Kimo had no martial arts training at all other than a bit of back yard brawling.

 

[RTKDCMB]

you think that's realistic self defense?

They were PRACTICING SLOWLY.

 

[K-man]

After Royce dominated the first few UFCs, fighters realized that in order to have a chance they needed to learn ground fighting. That's why everyone ends up on the floor grappling, because if you don't at least have a working knowledge of Bjj, you're going to get subbed or choked.

Why weren't there a lot of Bjj fighters in early UFC? Because no one in the states was really learning Bjj, and it took many years for the art to get dispersed to the point it has now. Relson Gracie for example was training people out of a garage in Honolulu around the time of the first UFC, and working a job in construction to help sustain himself and his family. Today, he has hundreds of schools throughout the United States. After Bjj took off, other Brazilian masters came up from Brazil to teach in the U.S. Now there's a Bjj school in just about every state.



Er... The Gracies won those early UFC tournaments, and they usually won them within a matter of minutes, so how were the rules unfavorable to Bjj? The Gracies actually left the UFC when new stricter rules were put into place.

Also how exactly do the rules tie RBSD guys up, but not MT, Boxing, Bjj, and other arts? Are RBSD folks incapable of adapting their tools?

The most interesting thing about the Royce vs Kimo fight is that Kimo was a hell of a lot bigger than Gracie at the time, and had studied grappling in order to counter Bjj.

Royce still subbed him.

Did you watch the fights that I asked you to watch? If you didn't why not? If you did, why no comment on what those fights showed? They directly relate to the OP.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Are you equating pro wrestling with competition? Pro wrestling is much more like wushu.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

I think its more like live theater.

 

[K-man]

Actually Kimo had no martial arts training at all other than a bit of back yard brawling.

I find that amazing! To be fair he did have a college wrestling background but to come so close to beating Royce Gracie without any training is hard to comprehend. Interesting stuff!

 

[RTKDCMB]

Sometime you just don't have any choice. When you run a commercial school, different people may walk into your school and challenge you. Some may challenge you in boxing rules (punch only), some may challenge you in MT rules (kick + punch), some may challenge you in Judo rules (wrestling only). If you take those challenges as opportunities to test your own skill against other styles, you will be happy to accept those challenges.

There is always a choice. It doesn't matter what the rules they say they will challenge me with, the answer will be the same. We are not a competition style, we teach self defence we don't take challenges (for the very reasons I stated before) then I would send him on his way. Depending upon his demeanor I may suggest that he is welcome to come back sometime and try a regular class.

Is that "self defense"?

No.

To defend you commercial school from closing down is "self defense" by my definition.

A school is not going to close down as the result of a challenge, especially if the challenge is not accepted. If there was some reason that the instructor could no longer teach there we would just bring in another instructor. In the past people have said things like "if someone charged at you, you would not be able to do anything" but none of them has ever tried it because they are all talk. If someone really wants to fight you they will just attack you therefore in a challenge you always have the option to say no, in self defence you do not. In the 26 years I have been training I have never seen someone come into a class and challenge the instructor.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Believe it or not, I have a lot of respect for traditional Goju Ryu. I think some of your training tactics are admirable, if not somewhat crazy;

That is not what has been reflected in your posts-so not.

 

[K-man]

After Royce dominated the first few UFCs, fighters realized that in order to have a chance they needed to learn ground fighting. That's why everyone ends up on the floor grappling, because if you don't at least have a working knowledge of Bjj, you're going to get subbed or choked.

No! With the new rules, to have a chance you need to have very good grappling skills. In the early days an elbow spike to the grappler's head or spine ended a lot of those fights.

Er... The Gracies won those early UFC tournaments, and they usually won them within a matter of minutes, so how were the rules unfavorable to Bjj? The Gracies actually left the UFC when new stricter rules were put into place.

No one is saying the Gracies weren't / aren't good. And almost all those early fights only lasted a matter of minutes. You will see that if you watch the video. The early rules were favourable to all martial artists, the new rules favoured the grapplers.

Also how exactly do the rules tie RBSD guys up, but not MT, Boxing, Bjj, and other arts? Are RBSD folks incapable of adapting their tools?

Why should they if they have no interest in competing in a competition?

The most interesting thing about the Royce vs Kimo fight is that Kimo was a hell of a lot bigger than Gracie at the time, and had studied grappling in order to counter Bjj.

Can you imagine how good he would have been if he studied grappling for two days?

Royce still subbed him.

Yes, he did.

On September 9, 1994, the audience for UFC III would recognize Kimo as a black belt in tae kwon do-a total fallacy devised by Joe Son. Carrying a cross on his back...something he actually did during his days with a Christian extremist group called Holy Dome...Kimo would represent his faith. "I was calm, and whatever happened in that octagon just happened," he said. "I was very proud at being able to carry the cross like that." In reality, Kimo says he only actually trained one day with Joe Son, who had a very minimal martial arts background. "To be honest with you, we really didn't even train; we read bible scriptures instead." Kimo also wanted to show that Christians could be strong and look strong, far removed from the stereotypical figures that most envision.

http://poptop.hypermart.net/testkl.html

Son drove back to his house and ordered the full series of Gracie jiu-jitsu instructional tapes. In a garage not too different from the one-time home of the Gracie jiu-jitsu academy, Kimo and Son reviewed the lesson plan. A basic tenet of Gracie jiu-jitsu was that size doesn’t matter. But Kimo and Son put together the more accurate forecast, which Jim Brown would articulate at UFC 5: “Size doesn’t matter, but once the big guy knows as much as the small guy, it does.”


http://www.asianmma.com/?p=6086

 

[TFP]

Maybe because the next generation of martial artists are and will be grapplers? Sure your generation were strikers, but times change.

 

[TFP]

In a vacuum, yes. in an isolated instance, yes. But not when for the past 20yrs grapplers have been beating strikers at an alarming rate and rarely vice-a-versa.

 

[ballen0351]

In a vacuum, yes. in an isolated instance, yes. But not when for the past 20yrs grapplers have been beating strikers at an alarming rate and rarely vice-a-versa.

Any evidence of this? if that were true why are people still learning striking arts? Even the top grapplers bring in striking experts. There is no perfect system which is why people cross train and learn both.