Sport And TMA....Again

[SENC-33]

What is this thread "really about"? It's title centers around TMA and sport competition but it's in the general "self defense" forum

:burp:

 

[Hanzou]

Actually Kimo had no martial arts training at all other than a bit of back yard brawling.

Um, he had a background in wrestling,

He also had a significant weight advantage over Gracie.

They were PRACTICING SLOWLY.

So? It had nothing to do with speed. The principles shown in those vids wouldn't work even if they were going full speed.

Example:

Slow movement, but sound principles.

 

[Hanzou]

No! With the new rules, to have a chance you need to have very good grappling skills. In the early days an elbow spike to the grappler's head or spine ended a lot of those fights.

Um, you needed good grappling skills in the early UFCs as well. Again, Gracie was subbing people in a matter of seconds in those early bouts.

Also I don't know if you watch a lot of UFC, but elbows still end a lot of fights. See a highlight film of the current UFC champ Jon Jones. The guy does nothing but elbows.

No one is saying the Gracies weren't / aren't good. And almost all those early fights only lasted a matter of minutes. You will see that if you watch the video. The early rules were favourable to all martial artists, the new rules favoured the grapplers.

The evidence doesn't support that. Plenty of strikers in modern UFC win, but they do so because they know what to do if they get taken to the ground. Before the majority of fighters learned Gjj, it was dominated by Gjj. After the Gracies left the UFC, wrestlers dominated it. Strikers started winning UFC championships when they supplemented their striking skills with grappling.

Why should they if they have no interest in competing in a competition?

That isn't what I asked you. You stated that RSBD guys are unfairly restricted by MMA rules. I want to know how exactly that is the case when numerous other MAs adapt to MMA rules just fine.

Can you imagine how good he would have been if he studied grappling for two days?

The fight may have lasted more than 4 minutes?

 

[RTKDCMB]

In a vacuum, yes. in an isolated instance, yes. But not when for the past 20yrs grapplers have been beating strikers at an alarming rate and rarely vice-a-versa.

Mostly in MMA competitions.

 

[RTKDCMB]

He also had a significant weight advantage over Gracie.

And Teila Tuli had a significant weight advantage over Gerard Gordeau (a striker) who was beaten by him with kicks and punches so not really much of a point there.

 

[Hanzou]

Any evidence of this? if that were true why are people still learning striking arts? Even the top grapplers bring in striking experts. There is no perfect system which is why people cross train and learn both.

Striking arts are more popular among the masses. I'm willing to bet that most people doing grappling arts now probably started out doing a striking art.

Why? Comfort and Ego. In a lot of karate, TKD, kung fu, and even kickboxing schools, you can get by with minimal contact. Yeah, you can do sparring, but often its not heavy sparring. You also get to establish a comfort zone, because no one is going to significantly destroy your comfort zone in a class.

In a grappling dojo/school, its a completely different ballgame. Your comfort zone is instantly destroyed as someone grabs you forcibly and attempts to throw you, submit you, or pin you. You have big sweaty guys on top of you constantly. You get slammed to the mat constantly. You get choked constantly. For some people, its completely ego shattering, especially when you first start and think you're the baddest guy on the block. In my time, I've seen plenty of brawny guys enter my gym and leave and never return after they get schooled by a white belt.

For others its extremely uncomfortable. This is especially true of women, who may not be fond of laying on their backs while sweaty men put them in holds and body locks. In my time, I've seen plenty of young women join our gym, and leave after 1 class because they don't like the closeness of the art. This happens even if we pair them up with more experienced female students. Unfortunately, women need that closeness and contact training for self defense.

 

[lklawson]

So who's more likely to break their hand? A karateka, or a boxer?

My money's on the Karateka. The boxer gets constant hand conditioning either through the heavy bag, or sparring. They get added points since their art forces/teaches them to take punches.

Yet another benefit of competition and sport fighting.

Anyone can break their hand. It comes from punching wrong or just getting unlucky. Happened to Faber (my favorite MMA fighter) in one of his matches. He fought on, though eventually lost, ims.

Karateka will, obviously, object that they condition using makiwara and they also spar. Seems like fair points to me. They also will object that modern boxers use of wraps and gloves mitigates the hand breaks they would, otherwise, be more likely to endure. Personally, from what I've seen, it's the wraps more than the gloves.

In any case, learning how to punch sans wraps/gloves is a key element and, also from what I've seen, few modern boxers have learned how to do so and, equally, neither have the majority of modern Karateka.

As much as I hate to say it, Wing Chun teaches the closest to the "ideal" method to avoid hand injury in punching (I hate to say it because most of their body mechanics are wrong for strong punching, despite having the right fist orientation, I also have a serious issue with "chain punching").

Anyhow, both modern boxers and karateka are vulnerable to breaking their hand.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Hanzou]

And Teila Tuli had a significant weight advantage over Gerard Gordeau (a striker) who was beaten by him with kicks and punches so not really much of a point there.

You mean when that fat tub of lard tripped on himself and Gerard kicked him in the face and they stopped the match because he had a cut under his eye and a lost tooth?

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/10005201/teila_tuli_vs_gerard_gordeau/

Yeah, that's totally the same thing.

 

[lklawson]

Because no one really needs to use their hands a few decades from now.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[RTKDCMB]

You mean when that fat tub of lard tripped on himself and Gerard kicked him in the face and they stopped the match because he had a cut under his eye and a lost tooth?

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/10005201/teila_tuli_vs_gerard_gordeau/

Yeah, that's totally the same thing.

No I mean Teila Tuli amateur Sumo wrestler with a record of 57-27-14, So not really the same thing - Teila Tuli was a moderately successful grappler who got beaten by a striker who suffered nothing more than a broken hand and a couple of teeth in his foot and still fought 2 more times and Kimo was an largely untrained fighter who beat Royce Gracie up so much he could not fight again that night.

 

[lklawson]

Boxing gloves have been around for a thousand years and for modern boxing compulsory since 1867.

That is a misconception. "Mufflers" or "Mittens" were not "compulsory" by any stretch. They were merely a requirement under one specific rule set published by the Marquis of Queensberry, which was, initially, targeted at amateur boxers. There were other competing rule sets outside of the good Marquis' rules and the London Prize Ring rules were still the norm for professional matches for many decades past the Marquis' first rendition. Pro-boxer Billy Edwards in his 1888 boxing manual The Art of Boxing and Manual of Training, makes a clear distinction between amateur matches, which use gloves, and professional matches, which will be bare knuckle. He further suggests that if a student of boxing is interested in street self defense then he should make a study of the London Prize Ring rules bare-knuckle boxing (which at the time included trips, throws, and grapples).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

And Teila Tuli had a significant weight advantage over Gerard Gordeau (a striker) who was beaten by him with kicks and punches so not really much of a point there.

No. He was forced to stop the fight because of a cut over his eye. Tuli was PISSED and wanted to keep fighting, believing that he was just bleeding a little (after all, it's a fight!) but in no way significantly degraded, never mind beat.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[RTKDCMB]

No. He was forced to stop the fight because of a cut over his eye.

That's how a lot of L's go in fighter's win-loss records. It would have been interesting if the fight was allowed to continue.

 

[Hanzou]

No I mean Teila Tuli amateur Sumo wrestler with a record of 57-27-14, So not really the same thing - Teila Tuli was a moderately successful grappler who got beaten by a striker who suffered nothing more than a broken hand and a couple of teeth in his foot and still fought 2 more times and Kimo was an largely untrained fighter who beat Royce Gracie up so much he could not fight again that night.

What exactly is your point here? Teila pretty much beat himself by falling on his belly and then getting kicked in the face. That isn't the same thing as what occurred in the Gracie/Kimo fight. In the latter, Kimo had numerous advantages over Royce and still lost. He had a size advantage (that Gracie actually had to work through), and he had the advantage of Gracie wearing a gi, so he had more handles to grip onto. Gracie still won via submission (a damn good one at that). It wasn't so much that Royce was beaten up, it was that Royce was tired as hell because he spent 4 minutes controlling and then fighting off a guy with wrestling experience, strength advantage, weight advantage, and grip advantage.

Royce proved that Bjj still works even if you're fighting a big sweaty guy you can't get a hold of. The Teila fight proved that if you're a fat person you shouldn't miss a takedown against a kickboxer.

When Gracie fought Gordeau, he beat him in a little over 30 seconds.

 

[ballen0351]

Because no one really needs to use their hands a few decades from now.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Huh? He's been doing it for decades and his hands work fine.

 

[ballen0351]

Striking arts are more popular among the masses. I'm willing to bet that most people doing grappling arts now probably started out doing a striking art.

Why? Comfort and Ego. In a lot of karate, TKD, kung fu, and even kickboxing schools, you can get by with minimal contact. Yeah, you can do sparring, but often its not heavy sparring. You also get to establish a comfort zone, because no one is going to significantly destroy your comfort zone in a class.

In a grappling dojo/school, its a completely different ballgame. Your comfort zone is instantly destroyed as someone grabs you forcibly and attempts to throw you, submit you, or pin you. You have big sweaty guys on top of you constantly. You get slammed to the mat constantly. You get choked constantly. For some people, its completely ego shattering, especially when you first start and think you're the baddest guy on the block. In my time, I've seen plenty of brawny guys enter my gym and leave and never return after they get schooled by a white belt.

For others its extremely uncomfortable. This is especially true of women, who may not be fond of laying on their backs while sweaty men put them in holds and body locks. In my time, I've seen plenty of young women join our gym, and leave after 1 class because they don't like the closeness of the art. This happens even if we pair them up with more experienced female students. Unfortunately, women need that closeness and contact training for self defense.

So no. You have no evidence just opinion.

 

[Hanzou]

So no. You have no evidence just opinion.

You mean other than most women being in striking arts, while signifantly less women being in grappling arts?

The ego thing is a bit harder to prove, but Ive met considerably less jerks in Bjj than other styles. Mainly because getting your butt kicked on a daily basis tends to humble you quite a bit.

 

[ballen0351]

There are jerks everywhere man. No less in BJJ no more in TMAs. I do both I've always been treated great everywhere I've been.

 

[Hanzou]

There are jerks everywhere man. No less in BJJ no more in TMAs. I do both I've always been treated great everywhere I've been.

I agree. I was just talking about my personal experience.

Do you agree that there is lack of women in the grappling arts?

 

[ballen0351]

I agree. I was just talking about my personal experience.

Do you agree that there is lack of women in the grappling arts?

There is a lack of woman in all arts. But honestly around me there about the same. There are several woman in my Judo classes and several in the BJJ classes I take. There a lot more in the Goju dojo but there are almost 250 students in the dojo so actual % wise between the three its close.
I think there are more kids in striking arts and the moms take the kids and get exposed to it and sign up.