Sport And TMA....Again

[Steve]

Are you equating pro wrestling with competition? Pro wrestling is much more like wushu.

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[Kung Fu Wang]

1) Some arts are only for self defence, challenging someone to a fight or accepting a challenge is not self defence.

Sometime you just don't have any choice. When you run a commercial school, different people may walk into your school and challenge you. Some may challenge you in boxing rules (punch only), some may challenge you in MT rules (kick + punch), some may challenge you in Judo rules (wrestling only). If you take those challenges as opportunities to test your own skill against other styles, you will be happy to accept those challenges.

Is that "self defense"? To defend you commercial school from closing down is "self defense" by my definition.

 

[jks9199]

That arm wrap technique is taught in my art as well among others - interesting.

It's very common... Not really surprising at all, when you consider that the various arts are all answering similar questions involving the same body. What they do after the wrap may change (maybe an elbow, maybe a throw, maybe a knee, maybe all of the above) depending on their principles and tactics... and exactly how they get there may vary, but the root idea is similiar.

 

[lklawson]

It's very common... Not really surprising at all, when you consider that the various arts are all answering similar questions involving the same body. What they do after the wrap may change (maybe an elbow, maybe a throw, maybe a knee, maybe all of the above) depending on their principles and tactics... and exactly how they get there may vary, but the root idea is similiar.

German medieval sword fighting of Hans Talhoffer. One of the Messer sequences (tafel 113):





Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That arm wrap technique is taught in my art as well among others - interesting.

I like to use my hand to control my opponent's elbow joint in "arm wrapping".

http://imageshack.com/a/img38/4088/armwrap1.png

In the following clip, Keanu Reeves had to wrap his opponent's left arm twice because his opponent's left arm was spinning with his arm wrapping. It is a good counter for the arm wrapping. The action direction did know some grappling art.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttYy1rPcqTc&feature=youtu.be

IMO, the "arm wrapping" is the 1st step to move from jacket wrestling to no-jacket wrestling. It replaces the jacket environment "sleeve hold" when "sleeve" is no longer available. It also reduce the distance between you and your opponent. That will also reduce the amount of your opponent's freedom.

 

[ballen0351]

Sometime you just don't have any choice. When you run a commercial school, different people may walk into your school and challenge you. Some may challenge you in boxing rules (punch only), some may challenge you in MT rules (kick + punch), some may challenge you in Judo rules (wrestling only). If you take those challenges as opportunities to test your own skill against other styles, you will be happy to accept those challenges.

Is that "self defense"? To defend you commercial school from closing down is "self defense" by my definition.

Huh? When does this happen? I've been in martial arts schools my whole life I've never seen anyone come in and challenge anyone. You come in my school to challange me to a fight you can wait outside for the cops. I don't need to prove anything to some dude off the street.

 

[CNida]

Why do I get the feeling this thread is going to end up just like that other thread that got closed by staff a few weeks ago?

Oh wait. It already is.


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

 

[Hanzou]

Happened to Tyson:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/15004/TYSON-BREAKS-RIGHT-HAND-IN-STREET-FIGHT.html?pg=all

"Tyson said he punched Green above the eye but damaged his own right hand in the process, causing a hairline fracture to the third metacarpal."

So who's more likely to break their hand? A karateka, or a boxer?

My money's on the Karateka. The boxer gets constant hand conditioning either through the heavy bag, or sparring. They get added points since their art forces/teaches them to take punches.

Yet another benefit of competition and sport fighting.

 

[ballen0351]

karate. The boxer gets constant hand conditioning either through the heavy bag, or sparring. They get added points since their art forces/teaches them to take punches.

Yet another benefit of competition and sport fighting.

So do Karateka. I train my hands everyday. Body conditioning is a huge part of Traditional Goju Ryu training.

 

[ballen0351]

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah, if you noticed, he never directly punched the rock. Impressive conditioning though.

I seriously doubt many karate schools in the US are making their students slam their hands into rocks though.

 

[ballen0351]

Yeah, if you noticed, he never directly punched the rock. Impressive conditioning though.

I seriously doubt many karate schools in the US are making their students slam their hands into rocks though.

Thats just one short demo man he does so much more.
I cant speak for most schools I can speak for my schools and we use Rocks and Makiwara all the time. I also train at home. Again it comes down to personal responsibility you cant just rely on what you do at your school you need to train at home as well. I have all the same tools at my home as I do in the Dojo,

 

[ballen0351]

This better for you?

 

[Aiki Lee]

Himura. My point is, that you need to train the high percentage maneuvers more often because they are the ones that set up the Illegal for competition low percentage maneuvers.

I think I'm going to need you to define High percentage vs low percentage as the only techniques I would consider low percentage are those not practiced enough or geared towards very rare and specific situations.
In general I think it is more important to train principles than to train techniques. That way you think strategically and can be ahead of your opponent rather than always react to what they are doing.

It is easier to perform that face rake(I assume that's what your talking about) if you can deal with this strikes and distract him with your own. One thing I don't understand about my new art of budo taijutsu is the lack of separating the striking and striking defense and getting lots of reps on them. So far I have seen no use of strike shields and focus mits. The striking and striking defense aspect is IMHO so very important to setting up everything else.

The kata found in Budo Taijutsu and like minded systems are not always meant to accurately reflect what an actual fight would look like. Some do, but not all of them. They are meant to teach lessons. I think this kind of training can be difficult for people to grasp as opposed to more competition oriented systems that are more straight forward. It's not that TMA don't deal with what you are concerned with it's just that most people in my opinion can't apply the lesson to the real world application. Kind of like solving a word problem in a math class, all the principles are there but it can be hard to see how it is applied in actuality. In my opinion this kind of straightforwardness would be more beneficial in TMA classes, but for many arts they purposefully keep things vague and they have their reasons.

I whole heartedly agree with you regarding TMA and ground. I would expand what your saying with this. There needs to be a focus on the main positions. Guard/mount both bottom and top/ half guard and side guard. I think that tma that want to do something on the ground besides spaz out need to put in many repititons on escaping each of those situations. I would also put attention in to the escape bottom of mount with punch defense. Another thing, that I notice is, that many tma that fall prey to when they get taken down by a grappler is they end up on top, in guard then get pulled down, into the bottom guys armpits and then guillotined. They need to learn to avoid that, and learn basic submission defense from each position. Grapplers are more vulnerable when they are going for a submission. I think that, if they focus on those basic things, and actually put in a lot of time practicing it, more then a few minutes a week they would be ok.

They don't need 600+ techniques, but they do need to put in quality time on a the things I outlined above and they will do just fine. I just feel they don't do enough time dedicated to it. Heck bring in a BJJ guy and let your guys go to town on him. They will learn a lot.

I agree that some attention to common grappling seen in competitions should be addressed in SD. I think because it is in the public eye enough people will mimic it to the point where someone could find themselves in some of the situations or positions you mentioned. I think it is important for each art to find the answer to dealing with it according to their own principles and do not necessarily need to adopt another arts curriculum or principles. I think some arts have better answers to these problems than others, but each art has an answer and I do think it is time that TMA look at what their answer to the problem should be without trying to copy what everyone else is doing. Each art must look to its own principles and tactics and adapt those to each new situation or else I would agree that they would not be relevant for SD anymore.

 

[Hanzou]

This better for you?

Yes, but the problem still remains; We have no way to test the effectiveness of these hand techs because Goju doesn't compete. We know how effective boxing techniques are, because boxers are utilizing punches in a competitive environment. We know that Bjj holds and locks work against resisting opponents because of competition. We know Judo can throw people because Judokas throw resisting opponents in competition. We know that high kicks in TKD and MT have knockout power because people have been knocked out with high kicks to the face in those sports.

All we have to show the effectiveness of Goju-Ryu is punching makiwara or rocks. If we got a Goju guy stepping into an NHB tournament and punching holes through people's chests and shrug off body blows because of their insane conditioning, I'd be a believer. Unfortunately we don't have that because Goju practitioners refuse to test their skills in an arena.

 

[ballen0351]

Yes, but the problem still remains; We have no way to test the effectiveness of these hand techs because Goju doesn't compete. We know how effective boxing techniques are, because boxers are utilizing punches in a competitive environment. We know that Bjj holds and locks work against resisting opponents because of competition. We know Judo can throw people because Judokas throw resisting opponents in competition. We know that high kicks in TKD and MT have knockout power because people have been knocked out with high kicks to the face in those sports.

All we have to show the effectiveness of Goju-Ryu is punching makiwara or rocks. If we got a Goju guy stepping into an NHB tournament and punching holes through people's chests and shrug off body blows because of their insane conditioning, I'd be a believer. Unfortunately we don't have that because Goju practitioners refuse to test their skills in an arena.

There are plenty of Goju Guys that compete first of all I know several Goju guys that fight in MMA. 2nd hand condition isnt about punching holes through people. Your claim was Karate doesn't condition hands so boxers hands are stronger. Thats just not true. I dont care if you think Goju works or not

 

[Aiki Lee]

Himura, you mentioned that the defeated opponents tried to fight gracies way. My question is, what if a art is a close range standing grappling heavy art like Hapkido or budo taijutsu(at least from what I have done so far it seams that way)? Arts like that, in their strongest area are in the gracies as well. It could be argued though that the hapkidoan could just stay at range and kick him and keep back peddling but, then that wouldn't be Hapkido that would be TKD. Edit to add. I mentioned Hapkido because in one Gracie challenge video the poor guy tries 3 times and it just gets worse and worse. He even tries to grab Roylers jewels during one exchange and still didn't work.

Like I've mentioned before, techniques are not what make a martial art what it is. What makes a martial art unique or effective is how it ties certain principles, tactics, and strategies together. In each of those fights, Gracie controlled what was happening. He took control of distance, timing, and was taking the initiative. Many TMA practitioners are to cautious or defense oriented to the point of always trying to react to what is happening instead of seeking their own advantages. This is not a problem with the TMA itself but with how it is taught and trained. If my art teaches someone to approach an opponent a specific way to set up particular takedown or strike but I don't explain why someone is supposed to do it and what will happen when the principle is ignored then it will never be addressed and people will not develop the skills necessary to win in an actual confrontation.

So what is your opinion on that. What if your art, is at its strongest, up close and that is exactly were the gracies wanted it??

Ok so let's say we have two grapplers then who both prefer close range. The superior martial artist is the one who is able to implement his strategy first. In the videos, Gracie has an idea of what he wants, but his opponents do not. They are reacting to him instead of trying to take control of the situation. They can tell he is good and are too cautious to try anything. They lost before they ever even got to the ground.
But anyway, if you have two people who excel at similar things then who ever takes the initiative and is committed to their movement will likely succeed. It all has to do with who has a superior set up.

 

[Hanzou]

There are plenty of Goju Guys that compete first of all I know several Goju guys that fight in MMA. 2nd hand condition isnt about punching holes through people. Your claim was Karate doesn't condition hands so boxers hands are stronger. Thats just not true. I dont care if you think Goju works or not

I was saying that a Karateka is more likely to break their hands punching someone than a boxer would because a boxer focuses on punching.

Believe it or not, I have a lot of respect for traditional Goju Ryu. I think some of your training tactics are admirable, if not somewhat crazy;

I think you'll enjoy that.

 

[Aiki Lee]

All of which were legal in UFC 1-6 and none of which worked.. Case in point. The HKD guy in the challenge videos, he kept trying to sack grab, and guess what, didn't work.. Plenty of hair pulling, fish hooking and other crap on the list in UFC 1-6 NONE OF THEM WORKED.

I'll admit, it's been a while since I've seen the first few UFCs but from what I remember a good majority of the fighters were really, REALLY amateur. Remember you didn't need a whole lot of credentials to get involved at first. As far as the "cheating" move not working, people incorrectly assume that those types of tactics such as eye gouging, fish hooking, and striking the groin are fight enders. They are not. You target those areas as a set up. You transition from them to something else immediately after performing an action like that. You use them to distract the mind of a brief moment so you can do the "real" escape or attack you were setting up. The fighters that just yanked on something or hit something over and over again were employing no skill at all. They were just terrible amateurs.

I don't know how you think I said you needed to submit someone on the ground. I was mainly talking about learning and being comfortable in those main positions as if you get taken down in a real fight, your going to end up in one or more of those. Learning how to stop a submission attempt(Which can be a joint break, I don't have to sub you. I can break you.) is easy. Being able to get out of that situation, in those common places to get trapped in is paramount.

I personally like the idea that one should be comfortable in common positions people use in fighting and learn how to properly escape or apply a skill. I do not think it has to match what every other ground fighter is doing, but it should be something you can test for reliability.

As to the spazzing out part. Unless your comfortable actually fighting on the ground, most people spaz the first few times. I know I did coming from boxing, as did the TKD black belt that I pwnt in mma rules sparring..(Which felt so good when it happened. I was so proud) Again there are plenty of videos of people spazzing.

People panic when they are in an unknown situation. For most people, they are not familiar enough with fighting from the ground and do freak out when faced with someone who knows what they are doing. But that's because they are in the ground fighters comfort zone. Many MMA practitioners train to be well rounded so they don't have freak out moments but if they are confronted with something new and dangerous they are not accustomed to then they will likely freak out, or freeze as well.

 

[Aiki Lee]

The purpose of this thread and subsequent question, stemmed from that other thread, "Can BJJ work in a real fight?". It seemed to me anyways, that the notion that sport fighting was superior to the TMAs, because of their training methods. I simply asked if the TMAs would be better if less time was spent on working kata and empty hand SD techs, and more time on the fighting aspect, such as we see with sport fighting. I mean, we don't see MMA fighters doing kata or working on knife defense, we see them working striking, hitting the pads, sparring, grappling, etc. Since at least one person in that other thread gives the impression (despite what he claims) that the sporting methods are superior, I simply wanted to hear from the members, and what they thought. I hope that made sense.

...

So, in your opinion, do you feel its a waste of time, for the TMA student to spend time learning defenses to various attacks, ie: grabs, kicks, weapons, etc.?

I know you addressed his to Steve but I'd like to answer too.
I think MMA fighters progress faster than most TMAs do and learn useable skills quicker on average. However, I think that TMA tend to have much more depth and have greater skills in the long run after many years of training. I think the sporting approach makes you very good at basic skills, which honestly is all most people need to defend themselves, but if you don't expand on it and go deeper through the proper use of things like kata or exploring those principles in other setting then at some point you stop growing and you can only work to maintain what you already have; and as one ages I think that would be a losing battle.