Sometimes, it's difficult to imagine a time When we were not martial artists

[Kenlee25]

Today, while on a walk/run with my dog, I passed by the usual kids in my neighborhood. Although many of them are within a few years of my age ( anywhere from 14 to 19, basically high school students ) I usually don't associate with them. Not my type of people. Usually they are off playing basketball, but today I passed them and two of them put on the gloves and were boxing. At that point I made sure to slow down my pace so that I could visually analyze the situation ( you know, the whole Martial arts vision we all get at certain point ).

It made me cringe.

There was no structure, no precision, no sense of defense or decent offense. Every swing was just a swing for the sake of swinging, There were no jabs to the face, only the the stomach ( And the wrong type of jab to the stomach ). There were no body mechanics in use, in fact, with those gloves on, I'd be hard pressed to think any of those swings actually hurt. One kid just started moving forward and swinging for the fences, a strategy than any martial artists, given the vast amount of space in this given situation, would have just had there way with. I mean the kid's balance was off, he was just throwing himself forward in a constant forward momentum, a simple kick or sweep would trip him up.....but the other kid just took it. He didn't bob and weave, he barely was able to back up, he didn't really even try to guard himself much. I just couldn't understand it...I do that stuff out of instinct, what gives?

And I had to tell myself "Kenneth, you used to be like that too".

After I thought that, looking at them ( for those 12 seconds it took me to get out of sight ) became humbling. Took me back to a time as white belt, back when my instructor used to get onto me about having a "gangster stance" that would be useless in a fight. It took me back to before I even knew how to throw a decent punch, where I had to think about every step in the process. Now, It's just one movement. It was strange. When you spar or fight against someone untrained, you don't notice all of those little things. You're to busy being in "don't get hit" mode. But looking at it from a distance? Strange thing.

I can't be the only one who has forgotten what it is like not to have martial knowledge right? Anyone else share this thought/similar experience?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I can't say I haven't had thoughts like that. Mostly when I was a green belt and thought I knew everything about martial arts. Now, as a brown belt, I think maybe I don't know anything.

 

[MLA9741]

I cringe when I watch school fights. Most kids just flail and 90% of those thrown punches are blockable and easy to counter. I feel like I caught on to martial arts really quick. I went with the flow and now since I have moved up in the ranks, I have been experimenting with fighting stances (still haven't found one I'm 100% satisfied with :x) as well as techniques. Also, since I started martial arts, I feel like I am more confident and I notice myself standing up to bullies harassing other kids (I was never really bullied due to my size....), but before martial arts, I would just let it happen. Ever since I started martial arts I have changed mentally and physically. Its been worth the hard work.

 

[Kenlee25]

I cringe when I watch school fights. Most kids just flail and 90% of those thrown punches are blockable and easy to counter. I feel like I caught on to martial arts really quick. I went with the flow and now since I have moved up in the ranks, I have been experimenting with fighting stances (still haven't found one I'm 100% satisfied with :x) as well as techniques. Also, since I started martial arts, I feel like I am more confident and I notice myself standing up to bullies harassing other kids (I was never really bullied due to my size....), but before martial arts, I would just let it happen. Ever since I started martial arts I have changed mentally and physically. Its been worth the hard work.

^I totally Agree. I've never much been bullied either, but I'm the opposite of you. I'm a small guy. In pretty much every circumstance i SHOULD be extremely cautious and not stand up to people. But martial arts ( even back when I was completely terrible...looking back I was so terrible ) gave me the confidence to not even flinch at danger. I just carry an air of confidence around me, thus I've really never had a problem with bullies, verbal or otherwise.


As for your stance predicament, may I suggest the Jeet Kune do stance? It's what I use. I don't study Jeet kune do, but I just find that stance to be the most functional and simple. I suggest you Google it, or go pick of Bruce Lee's book "the tao of Jeet kune do" if you want to study it in depth. Good read for any martial artists. I recommend it.

 

[MLA9741]

I use a very similar stance...never before saw that stance in my life...only difference is I keep my front hand up and closed at about chest level. I may need to pick the book up, I'm into those type of books. Bottom line is that if you have a large amount of confidence, you won't have issues with most people (unless they're under the influence or just genuine a-holes).

 

[shima]

I can't say I haven't had thoughts like that. Mostly when I was a green belt and thought I knew everything about martial arts. Now, as a brown belt, I think maybe I don't know anything.

Heck I've been studying martial arts for 12 years and have 2 black belts and other ranks (see signature) and while I wouldn't say I don't know "anything" I would say I sure as heck don't know everything! There's just so much out there to learn, it would take multiple lifetimes to acquire all that knowledge.

But yes I do cringe when I see people just swinging wildly with no sense to the movement.

 

[MLA9741]

Heck I've been studying martial arts for 12 years and have 2 black belts and other ranks (see signature) and while I wouldn't say I don't know "anything" I would say I sure as heck don't know everything! There's just so much out there to learn, it would take multiple lifetimes to acquire all that knowledge.

But yes I do cringe when I see people just swinging wildly with no sense to the movement.

I don't think one CAN learn everything about martial arts, or most things in general...

 

[Kenlee25]

I use a very similar stance...never before saw that stance in my life...only difference is I keep my front hand up and closed at about chest level. I may need to pick the book up, I'm into those type of books. Bottom line is that if you have a large amount of confidence, you won't have issues with most people (unless they're under the influence or just genuine a-holes).

The stance ( as is everything about jeet kune do ) was designed for modification. So yeah. I don't do it exactly as it is diagrammed either, I keep my lead hand around my lower chest rather than near my groin.


I think it's quite possible to learn everything about a given style. you will never learn everything about martial arts in general, but that is just like saying you want to master every single subject you can learn in college. It's impossible and largely useless to do so. That's why we have majors.

 

[MLA9741]

The stance ( as is everything about jeet kune do ) was designed for modification. So yeah. I don't do it exactly as it is diagrammed either, I keep my lead hand around my lower chest rather than near my groin.


I think it's quite possible to learn everything about a given style. you will never learn everything about martial arts in general, but that is just like saying you want to master every single subject you can learn in college. It's impossible and largely useless to do so. That's why we have majors.

I think you can learn it, get a basic concept, but you can't master it.

Also, there may be some hidden details that you haven't been taught...who knows.

 

[Cyriacus]

I was taught some Wrestling and Boxing at a very young age. I literally cannot remember not being Trained to some extent

But I have had such a revelation of understanding, but I had it of My own volition, whilst trying to answer a question about someones Stance.

 

[K-man]

I have been looking to see if I could find a natural stance vid to illustrate my thoughts. This is one of the closest:

IMO, the stance should be natural, not too deep, weight evenly distributed, hips slightly turned, hands just about shoulder height, elbows tucked in nice and close. I would suggest the hands should be open regardless of the situation (sparring or SD). One thing I saw demonstrated was to jump up and down a couple of times on the spot then take one foot straight back a short distance. That gave a good stable stance from which it is easy to move in any direction. For me, the JKD stance is unnatural and way too deep.

Back to the OP. I think it's good that the guys are at least putting gloves on to play around, even if their technique is less than we would expect. Given time they might decide to take lessons. As Cyriacus said, we started boxing and wrestling when we were young kids. :asian:

 

[MLA9741]

I have been looking to see if I could find a natural stance vid to illustrate my thoughts. This is one of the closest:

IMO, the stance should be natural, not too deep, weight evenly distributed, hips slightly turned, hands just about shoulder height, elbows tucked in nice and close. I would suggest the hands should be open regardless of the situation (sparring or SD). One thing I saw demonstrated was to jump up and down a couple of times on the spot then take one foot straight back a short distance. That gave a good stable stance from which it is easy to move in any direction. For me, the JKD stance is unnatural and way too deep.

Back to the OP. I think it's good that the guys are at least putting gloves on to play around, even if their technique is less than we would expect. Given time they might decide to take lessons. As Cyriacus said, we started boxing and wrestling when we were young kids. :asian:

We learn that neutral stance displayed in the video at my school, very efficient IMHO. I guess I wasn't clear about the stance...I was talking more along the lines as if you were going to touch gloves with someone and fight. I'm not a big fan of a boxer's stance because I feel like I leave my face, chest, and groin way open. I adopted the JKD stance with a few modifications for "touched glove" combat and the passive/neutral stance for dealing with an aggressor.

I pretty much started my training all in middle school, wrestling during my last 2 years and martial arts for my last year. I like to think I know what I'm doing and anything done with poor technique just drives me crazy due to the fact I drill my students until it is near perfect

 

[Cyriacus]

We learn that neutral stance displayed in the video at my school, very efficient IMHO. I guess I wasn't clear about the stance...I was talking more along the lines as if you were going to touch gloves with someone and fight. I'm not a big fan of a boxer's stance because I feel like I leave my face, chest, and groin way open. I adopted the JKD stance with a few modifications for "touched glove" combat and the passive/neutral stance for dealing with an aggressor.

I pretty much started my training all in middle school, wrestling during my last 2 years and martial arts for my last year. I like to think I know what I'm doing and anything done with poor technique just drives me crazy due to the fact I drill my students until it is near perfect

Quick note: Watch a Boxing Match, and then go look at the technical Boxing Stance. Its more like a Template, than what all Boxers actually use.
The Face and Chest arent open, unless You position Your Elbows poorly. The groin is defendable the same way the head is, if Your Hands are around Your Chest - By moving them.

Note that I am not contradicting Your View - Just offering some insight into the idealogy of a Boxing Stance, and that it is designed for Offense, and Neutral Movement. You transition from it, into Defensive Positions. The stance is not Your Defense, its where You start from, before assuming a Defensive Position.
The JKD Stance, as far as I know, is more Neutral, with the Hands ready to Defend, before transitioning to an attack. The Boxing Stance is in some ways, the opposite. Which perhaps reflects the difference between the idealogies. Additionally, there is a stance comparable to it in Boxing. Its a Defensive Stance.

 

[MLA9741]

Quick note: Watch a Boxing Match, and then go look at the technical Boxing Stance. Its more like a Template, than what all Boxers actually use.
The Face and Chest arent open, unless You position Your Elbows poorly. The groin is defendable the same way the head is, if Your Hands are around Your Chest - By moving them.

Note that I am not contradicting Your View - Just offering some insight into the idealogy of a Boxing Stance, and that it is designed for Offense, and Neutral Movement. You transition from it, into Defensive Positions. The stance is not Your Defense, its where You start from, before assuming a Defensive Position.
The JKD Stance, as far as I know, is more Neutral, with the Hands ready to Defend, before transitioning to an attack. The Boxing Stance is in some ways, the opposite. Which perhaps reflects the difference between the idealogies. Additionally, there is a stance comparable to it in Boxing. Its a Defensive Stance.

mmmmmmm, gotcha. I guess stances are just based on preference/fighting style.

 

[Cyriacus]

mmmmmmm, gotcha. I guess stances are just based on preference/fighting style.

A bit of both, Yes

In Boxing, its mostly preference. Like how some people like to square up, and others like to turn out a bit.

 

[MJS]

Today, while on a walk/run with my dog, I passed by the usual kids in my neighborhood. Although many of them are within a few years of my age ( anywhere from 14 to 19, basically high school students ) I usually don't associate with them. Not my type of people. Usually they are off playing basketball, but today I passed them and two of them put on the gloves and were boxing. At that point I made sure to slow down my pace so that I could visually analyze the situation ( you know, the whole Martial arts vision we all get at certain point ).

It made me cringe.

There was no structure, no precision, no sense of defense or decent offense. Every swing was just a swing for the sake of swinging, There were no jabs to the face, only the the stomach ( And the wrong type of jab to the stomach ). There were no body mechanics in use, in fact, with those gloves on, I'd be hard pressed to think any of those swings actually hurt. One kid just started moving forward and swinging for the fences, a strategy than any martial artists, given the vast amount of space in this given situation, would have just had there way with. I mean the kid's balance was off, he was just throwing himself forward in a constant forward momentum, a simple kick or sweep would trip him up.....but the other kid just took it. He didn't bob and weave, he barely was able to back up, he didn't really even try to guard himself much. I just couldn't understand it...I do that stuff out of instinct, what gives?

And I had to tell myself "Kenneth, you used to be like that too".

After I thought that, looking at them ( for those 12 seconds it took me to get out of sight ) became humbling. Took me back to a time as white belt, back when my instructor used to get onto me about having a "gangster stance" that would be useless in a fight. It took me back to before I even knew how to throw a decent punch, where I had to think about every step in the process. Now, It's just one movement. It was strange. When you spar or fight against someone untrained, you don't notice all of those little things. You're to busy being in "don't get hit" mode. But looking at it from a distance? Strange thing.

I can't be the only one who has forgotten what it is like not to have martial knowledge right? Anyone else share this thought/similar experience?

Yeah, I've seen similar things before. I usually just shake my head and continue on with what I'm doing...lol. Usually when I see this, I think a) these people are a) learn at home martial artists or b) people that get together with their friends, pop in the latest installment of Ultimate Fighter and try to mimic their favs.

I think that its easy to say that we used to be like that too, however, I really wouldn't go that far, because at least when I was coming thru the ranks, I was getting the proper way to throw punches. Sure, we were all uncoordinated, had a hard time standing on 1 leg while throwing a kick, etc, but like I said, at least we were taking the steps to get better.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I can remember standing onthe white line in the street. Me on one side of it and my opponet on the other side, both trowing punches to the face. The one that backed down first lost. I can also remeber bobbing and weaving around my opponet and him getting angry because I would not stand still "and fight like a man".
Yep, I can remeber those days but they where over fifty years ago.
When I see the young ones fight these days I try not to cring and usualy just keep walking unless I feel someone is going to get stomped at the end of the fight

 

[jks9199]

Quick note: Watch a Boxing Match, and then go look at the technical Boxing Stance. Its more like a Template, than what all Boxers actually use.
The Face and Chest arent open, unless You position Your Elbows poorly. The groin is defendable the same way the head is, if Your Hands are around Your Chest - By moving them.

Note that I am not contradicting Your View - Just offering some insight into the idealogy of a Boxing Stance, and that it is designed for Offense, and Neutral Movement. You transition from it, into Defensive Positions. The stance is not Your Defense, its where You start from, before assuming a Defensive Position.
The JKD Stance, as far as I know, is more Neutral, with the Hands ready to Defend, before transitioning to an attack. The Boxing Stance is in some ways, the opposite. Which perhaps reflects the difference between the idealogies. Additionally, there is a stance comparable to it in Boxing. Its a Defensive Stance.

The typical boxer's stance today is some variant of the Peek-a-Boo stance. It's a stance designed around fighting in a particular rule set, with limited targets (front & sides of the upper torso & head) and limited weapons (gloved fist, only using the front/knuckle portion of the glove). It also reflects the boxer's theory of power generation. It's also a fluid/mobile stance; you don't just settle into it & stay, you should be moving & shifting.

 

[Cyriacus]

The typical boxer's stance today is some variant of the Peek-a-Boo stance. It's a stance designed around fighting in a particular rule set, with limited targets (front & sides of the upper torso & head) and limited weapons (gloved fist, only using the front/knuckle portion of the glove). It also reflects the boxer's theory of power generation. It's also a fluid/mobile stance; you don't just settle into it & stay, you should be moving & shifting.

Given that I have extensively Boxed, Im aware of that, Good Sir
And yeah, I probably should have mentioned the need for movement, as well as hand movement. Good Call!

 

[lklawson]

It made me cringe.

Doesn't bother me a bit.

First off, they were probably just having fun and maybe getting a little exercise. I doubt that they were trying to fool themselves into thinking they were the next Ali or anything. Just goofing. But even in the event that they were serious, it would still make me happy. I'm old and slow. I'll take any advantage I can get.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk