Victims Frozen in Fear

[Bill Mattocks]

I want to approach this with some sensitivity, but I was struck by these statements yesterday:

http://www.stltoday.com/business/te...cle_ff0ff3b9-ead4-51bc-b24b-4432aefcf2cb.html

Some teenagers were frozen in panic, unable to move even when Breivik ran out of ammunition. He changed clips. They didn't move. He shot them in the head.
"They cannot run. They stand totally still. This is something they never show on TV," Breivik said. "It was very strange."

...

Breivik hunted down victims, luring teens from their hiding places by telling them he was a police officer who was there to protect them. When they came out, he gunned them down.

...

One man tried to attack him. "I push him away with one hand, and shoot him with the other," Breivik said.
Another man tried to "dodge the bullets by moving in zigzag, so that I couldn't shoot him in the head," he said. "So I shot him in the body instead, quite a few times."

This is a horrible tragedy, and it's clear that when someone is intent on killing you, fighting, fleeing, and freezing might all be poor choices. Of those who did survive, many did so by diving into the sea.

Clearly, freezing was not the best response. What would be? How does one know what to do in such situations? How does one train for it? What does one tell their children to do if something like this ever happens?

 

[Cyriacus]

Pretend to already be dead.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Pretend to already be dead.

http://www.starcourier.com/topstories/x1780483545/Court-in-shock-as-Norway-gunman-describes-massacre

Others pretended to be dead. He said he shot them, too.

 

[Cyriacus]

http://www.starcourier.com/topstories/x1780483545/Court-in-shock-as-Norway-gunman-describes-massacre

Hm.

 

[chinto]

cover is a good thing, concealment not as good, but if nothing else you might as well go for the throat! you got nothing to loose and at least you might take the bastard with you!!! Also use any weapon you can! a pencil or pen, or what have you.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If nothing else, it does illustrate the advantage that an armed person has over the unarmed. However, one thing that weapons cannot overcome is numbers. The question is whether or not it would have been possible for those who were there to quickly form a plan and attack the gunman all together. I'm not suggesting that they should have done this or that, just wondering about possible counters and tactics.

 

[Cyriacus]

cover is a good thing, concealment not as good, but if nothing else you might as well go for the throat! you got nothing to loose and at least you might take the bastard with you!!! Also use any weapon you can! a pencil or pen, or what have you.

I think the issue being presented here is in the people not doing *anything*, and being frozen in fear. Thats a hard thing to get rid of.
And most people arent exactly generally under the umbrella of Military Training.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

cover is a good thing, concealment not as good, but if nothing else you might as well go for the throat! you got nothing to loose and at least you might take the bastard with you!!! Also use any weapon you can! a pencil or pen, or what have you.

From what I read, many of the children hid in caves; he went in and shot them; they were trapped. That is when he even noted his astonishment that when he ran out of ammunition and stopped to reload his weapons, they still stood there in fear and did not run past him to get away.

 

[Haakon]

Assuming you can't shoot back, get behind cover and/or create distance. The further away you are the odds of being hit drop enormously. Other than cover that bullets can't penetrate, distance seems to be your best option.

This data is from the SOP9 report on shootings by the NYPD.
http://www.virginiacops.org/articles/shooting/combat.htm
http://www.pointshooting.com/1asop9.htm

Hit Potential In Gun Fights In 1990 the overall police hit potential was 19%. Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were: Less than 3 yards ..... 38% 3 yards to 7 yards .. 11.5% 7 yards to 15 yards .. 9.4% In 1992 the overall police hit potential was 17%. Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were: Less than 3 yards ..... 28% 3 yards to 7 yards .... 11% 7 yards to 15 yards . 4.2%

 

[Chris Parker]

I think the first thing that needs to be understood is exactly what the Fight, Flight or Freeze response actually is, and why "knowing what to do" doesn't necessarily help matters at all.

In essence, it's a survival mechanism. When you get suddenly and seriously adrenalised, the higher functions of your brain shut down, and your survival programming kicks in. It basically assesses where the cause of the adrenaline dump is, how far away it is, and gives you the response that is deemed (from a survival point of view, honed over hundreds of thousands of generations), which is basically that if there is distance between you and the cause of the adrenaline, try to escape (flight), if not, then engage it (fight). You know when you hear a siren, or car tyres screetching, and you stop for a second? That's your survival brain assessing the next step. And once it has assessed, then it looks for a powerful response in whichever skill is required.

Freeze comes into it when you assess an action (typically fight), but you have no resources to apply. In other words, if you have been taught (psychologically, on a deep level I'm talking here) that "fighting is wrong", or "you're too weak to do anything", or simply never really put anything that the unconscious (who is really in control of that survival part of yourself) that is assessed, or believed to be powerful, then there just won't be anything there to work with. As a result, when you look for an action, and find none, you have an absence of action, or, you freeze.

So how do you deal with it? Well, "knowing what to do" really doesn't come into it. Mainly as "knowing what to do" is a conscious assessment/decision making process, and that's not present for you under such circumstances. What you need to do is teach your unconscious responses that are recognised as "powerful". And that comes down to the way you train it. Basically, it needs to be done seriously, with a sense of reality (life-and-death, in a real way).

Freezing is really fairly common, when it all comes down to it. Martial artists can also be afflicted by it quite a lot, especially if they've treated their training (when training) as "fun". What that does is tells the unconscious to categorise the martial skills in the "fun" box, not the "powerful, survival" box. So when you look in the "powerful, survival" box, it's empty.

Train like it's real every time, and train every time like it's the only chance you get. And get as acclimatized to adrenaline as you can.

 

[MLA9741]

i think the first thing that needs to be understood is exactly what the fight, flight or freeze response actually is, and why "knowing what to do" doesn't necessarily help matters at all.

In essence, it's a survival mechanism. When you get suddenly and seriously adrenalised, the higher functions of your brain shut down, and your survival programming kicks in. It basically assesses where the cause of the adrenaline dump is, how far away it is, and gives you the response that is deemed (from a survival point of view, honed over hundreds of thousands of generations), which is basically that if there is distance between you and the cause of the adrenaline, try to escape (flight), if not, then engage it (fight). You know when you hear a siren, or car tyres screetching, and you stop for a second? That's your survival brain assessing the next step. And once it has assessed, then it looks for a powerful response in whichever skill is required.

Freeze comes into it when you assess an action (typically fight), but you have no resources to apply. In other words, if you have been taught (psychologically, on a deep level i'm talking here) that "fighting is wrong", or "you're too weak to do anything", or simply never really put anything that the unconscious (who is really in control of that survival part of yourself) that is assessed, or believed to be powerful, then there just won't be anything there to work with. As a result, when you look for an action, and find none, you have an absence of action, or, you freeze.

So how do you deal with it? Well, "knowing what to do" really doesn't come into it. Mainly as "knowing what to do" is a conscious assessment/decision making process, and that's not present for you under such circumstances. What you need to do is teach your unconscious responses that are recognised as "powerful". And that comes down to the way you train it. Basically, it needs to be done seriously, with a sense of reality (life-and-death, in a real way).

Freezing is really fairly common, when it all comes down to it. Martial artists can also be afflicted by it quite a lot, especially if they've treated their training (when training) as "fun". What that does is tells the unconscious to categorise the martial skills in the "fun" box, not the "powerful, survival" box. So when you look in the "powerful, survival" box, it's empty.

Train like it's real every time, and train every time like it's the only chance you get. And get as acclimatized to adrenaline as you can.

this, this, this

its a terrible event, but I suppose if it happened to us (God forbid) we would freeze for a second, observe, think, react. I am sure most people were in disbelief and couldn't believe it was happening to them. compare this to the Columbine attack and how chaotic things became...people feared for their own lives as well as friends lives. that is what I believe we adapted to; I think we lost the "every man for himself" idea.

 

[aedrasteia]

thanks Bill, for getting this out in front of everyone.

"I want to approach this with some sensitivity,"

a little confused - can you explain ?

"Clearly, freezing was not the best response. What would be? How does one know what to do in such situations? How does one train for it?

Vivtims' Cognitive function was busy trying to process multiple opposing pieces of information:

* I see a (apparently) uniformed, legitimate police officer/LEO ;

* Police officer is executing/shooting unarmed, apparently unarmed, non-threatening civilians - teenagers, adults, children;

* Legitimate police officers/LEOs do not execute/shoot non-threatening civilians;

* therefore, something is happening that I do not/cannot process with the information I'm taking in visually-auditorally;

* what I am seeing/hearing is so disturbing - horrifying that all systems (cognitive, emotional, psychological) are attempting to comprehend/process/explain based on past experience and learning (see first 3 items above), no success with that effort and biological-endochrine system is overloaded-compromised. Action and/or evasive movement is suspended while other functionswork to comprehend & understand (tying up all other processes/action). Adhrenaline overload acts to intensify and overwhelm other systems.

All of this (internally within Brevick's targets) is occurring within instants -seconds-minutes.

There are few other "such situations" that contain multiple massively contradictory information combined with the 'normally'
horrifying experience of personal terror and fear and responses to blood, bodily injury and destruction.

My take is that even over and above the 'freeze' responses we can discuss. It is this - the impact of trying to process
information that is completely contradictory that makes this situation so difficult and painful for those who were there
and for us all as we try to understand it.

Posters here at MT all train for the 'bad guy'. And debate how to break-anticipate-overcome an understandable freeze i
n the face of a 'bad guy' we can clearly identify as 'the bad guy'. We all assume we will know who that bad guy is
immediately and we base our debates and conversations here on MT and in training on that (usually unspoken) assumption.
Sometimes we get into complex discussions about 'awareness' and 'indicators' etc. but we almost never discuss
or question that assumption about the bad guys and knowing who they are, so we can avoid, evade, anticipate or
escape.

I believe Brevick's deep cruelty is shown in his awareness of that and his wearing of police gear. He clearly knew
the effect on his targets.

I'm trying to think hard on this.

 

[Kenlee25]

Wow that is....Just reading that made me genuinely fearful for my life suddenly, even though I'm safely locked in my house right now.

I think that as Martial artists, We always try to find a solution to the situation when in fact, some situations don't have one. What are you going to do when a crazed gunman is intent on killing you? He's not some robber holding a gun to your head hoping to scare you out of money -- And even then, many of us would probably freeze -- he was firing at people from a distance...and killing them.

Honestly, I would freeze as well, and don't know of that many people who would not.

Its not about reaching for your survival box and finding nothing there, its about reaching for your survival box, pulling out everything you possibly can and still realizing...that you're going to die. "I can run...but he will shoot me. I can fight...but he will shoot me. I can sit here and plead for my life or try to talk him down...and he will shoot me. Just like everyone else". Human beings operate on hope. If we did not have some sort of hope that our endeavors would inevitably at some point culminate into something that we need, that we want, we wouldn't do it. When we fight an attacker, as martial artists, we putting faith in our skills and hoping that they keep us safe during the attack. When we run, we are hoping that we will have the insight of where exactly to go, and have the ability to outrun the opponent. But in a situation like that, devoid of any all hope...what do you do?

When you have been stripped of all of your hope, and your brain has been searching so long for a solution yet can't find one...even when an opportunity presents itself ( the man reloading his gun ) you just can't think fast enough. By the time it registers that you can escape, or by the time you muster up the courage to move from your spot and try and do something...it's quite often to late. Especially when your attacker is just staring you down.


In my oppinion...they should have attacked him. People WOULD die. That's a fact. In that kind of situation, engaging an armed man at range when you are unarmed, someone is going to die. Maybe a great many people. But you can save the lives of others. I would rather have 12 people die, than 77. That's just ethics.

But the unfortunate thing about ethics, they always have a cost, and sometimes you can't even come to the right conclusion.

Reading that was...saddening to say the least.

 

[MJS]

Not sure how this can be trained, other than to run thru scenario training, that'll stimulate an adrenal dump. Like Chris said, alot of the time that, unfortunately, is not part of training. Off the top of my head....obviously trying to get the hell out of the building, should be the #1 thing. If that fails, then I'd suggest trying to hide.

A part of the article caught my eye, when he spoke of someone trying to attack him, and he pushed him off with his free hand, and shot him with the other. I think in alot of weapon defenses, people tend to forget about that other hand. People see the weapon, and focus all their attention on that, forgetting that the guy, very possibly, could be using that other hand to strike you, push you away, etc.

As for fighting back...well, I'll say the non popular thing..lol...but in a case like this, whether you fight or dont fight, it seems like you could be up the creek either way, so rather than just put your head between your legs and kissing your *** goodbye, I'd rather fight back. But thats just me. If/when the opportunity presents itself, may as well go for it, as it may not present itself again.

 

[chinto]

I think the issue being presented here is in the people not doing *anything*, and being frozen in fear. Thats a hard thing to get rid of.
And most people arent exactly generally under the umbrella of Military Training.

yes and no, in that some people will freeze even with training, and some will react even with out it. I think that training is beneficial towards NOT freezing. I also think that having some mental training as far as functioning under stress, but also considering when you hear a news story what options there might be? Pulling a fire alarm? using a pen or pencil as a weapon? hiding? running? I think if you ever have considered the "if I was in such and such a situation what might I do to improve my chances?" might indeed improve them. I think it might help with that freezing problem. Many people have never thought about what they might do in a treat situation at all. I think that helps lead to that freeze response. ( not that every one might not freeze in this or that situation.) what about jumping out a window?? usually doing something will be a better choice then doing nothing... usually. in the end all you can do is make your best guess and go for it.

and yes armed with a gun is a huge advantage, that is why they invented the gun!

 

[Rich Parsons]

I was in a hail storm headed towards my vehicle. The ex-wife froze when she was hit and would not move. I had to step back and grab her and yell run. She finally got moving and we got to our vehicle and in. I yelled at her the whole way to move and when to open the door. We had passed a couple of females who were trying to seek cover near by a vehicle. So, I backed our vehicle to them and yelled for them to get in they did.

I have been first on seen and called 911 and had to get others moving when they showed up. I have not been first and when I ask if someone has called for help and I get that blank look I call and start getting people moving.

No Military or police training for myself.

As Chris wrote, undertanding the condition and the situation is important. Telling them what to do gives them direction when they could be lost or overwhelmed.

 

[Brian King]

“How does one train for it?”

First thing is to make peace with the idea that no matter how much you train and prepare there might not be anything that you can do. In fact, often as in the case above, the first killed are those that have training and ability and almost always from ambush.

“Breivik's first victims were Monica Boesei, a camp organizer, and Trond Bentsen, an off-duty police officer and camp security guard.
"My whole body tried to revolt when I took the weapon in my hand. There were 100 voices in may head saying 'Don't do it, don't do it,'" Breivik said.
Nonetheless, he pointed his gun at Berntsen's head and pulled the trigger. He shot Boesei as she tried to run away. Then as they lay on the ground, he shot them both twice in the head.”

A complaint about military training is that the militaries often train for the last war rather than next one. It brings up an interesting thought for martial artists. Train for specific scenarios of which there could easily be tens of thousands and could take years only to possibly face a scenario not yet thought of. What is the alternative? In my opinion, rather than training for the what if’s, time is better spent training for the known. It might be a different perspective but one easily understood I think. Looking at the event described in the op and breaking it down to the simplest terms we could I think describe it as extreme stress. Extreme stress has been and continues to be studied and there is all kinds of information available to the lay person. The trick then is to take that information and incorporate into the martial training. The methodology should be considered a type of inoculation preparing for extreme stress and how to successfully deal with it. Hint: we daily face stress, learning how to healthily manage these little arousals gives great practice and can be seen as inoculations, no small thing.

In the event of extremely stressful situations ranging from earthquakes to terrorist attacks the ability to remain calm allows one to make timely assessments as to the proper course of action.

My advice is to learn how to keep a professional calm comportment during stressful situations as this survival skill is something that can help no matter what the situation. After that skill is understood then the thing to do is to practice it.



Warmest Regards
Brian King

 

[oftheherd1]

...

This is a horrible tragedy, and it's clear that when someone is intent on killing you, fighting, fleeing, and freezing might all be poor choices. Of those who did survive, many did so by diving into the sea.

Clearly, freezing was not the best response. What would be? How does one know what to do in such situations? How does one train for it? What does one tell their children to do if something like this ever happens?

I don't know that there is an answer to your question Bill. Every instance of something like this is different. The assailant, the victims and their culture, it all plays in. Breivek obviously made his plans well, and his plan was to kill. He had a mindset to do that and he did. It is probably significant that he picked a youth camp; not only for the shock effect, but for the lack of life experience of fighting back. He probably chose the island, not only for the youth, but the remoteness. I wonder if that would have played out differently in the USA. I'm not sure it would have, but I wonder if our culture might have caused at least more of the young people to try and engage. I wouldn't want us to have to find out the answer to that one.

I don't know anything about what happened other that the news reports of the time and the article you linked to. But the only opportunity I saw was the person who got close enough to try and attack him. Breivek pushed him away. Anyone that close, and trained, may have been able to grapple with him successfully. Or maybe not. But even if he still died, he might have been able to prevent the deaths of others.

What do you tell your kids, or anyone for that matter? I'm not sure other than be prepared, be ready to think outside the box, and when/if you decide to act, do so decisively and forcefully. Also, that your decision can be to attack an assailant, or to run/hide. Survival is the name of the game.

The only thing I like from that article was this: "If declared sane, Breivik could face a maximum 21-year prison sentence or an alternate custody arrangement that would keep him locked up as long as he is considered a menace to society. If found insane, he would be committed to psychiatric care for as long as he's considered ill." In his case, I do like it. But it seems like power easy to abuse. But 21 years for causing that much pain and death, it just set well with me.

 

[Buka]

The fact that this murderer might be set free in 21 years does not sit well with me. Slaughter women and children and get sent to your room for a while?

As for the poor kids who froze, so sad, so horrible. And, as in this case, the freezing is even more likely to happen in a society unused to violence.

 

[72ronin]

Without going into too much details,
A person i know went through these range of emotions. A man entered the backyard of a residence where people had gathered, he had a powerfull rifle (auto) and he shot someone several times.

The person i know, witnessed this/She froze to the spot. It wasnt untill she realised that everyone else was fleeing that she actualy finaly moved and escaped.
The worst part is, is that she was the first to spot him coming toward the house, she was aware that he had history of stalking his target(s) and here he was coming toward the house this time in full army gear (he was a vietnam vet) and she even at that point (before he had entered the property) began to feel as if she didnt know what to do and began to shut down in many ways.
He was confronted by others, returned to his car, loaded his weapon and returned.
Two days later it began to really sink in, and she developed PTSD and OCD.

People have a deep expectation of safety, as it is, they have become accustom to an environment where the expectation is that nothing "that" bad will happen. When it does, they have nothing to work with and as Mr Parker pointed out so well, are basicaly left with nothing.
It makes absolutely no difference what country it happens in. Very few are prepared to fight to the death at a moments notice. Many are conditioned to a way of life where we are not entirely.. independant in this manner. What is your first response upon hearing a gunshot, right now outside your home? Or someone kicking in your back door? Calling the police (an authority) or perhaps calling for your partner or parent or something. Whoever it is, it is someone we have entrusted our safety to at some level.

The point is, what would "you" do? The strangest thoughts go through your head, your brain actualy tries to downplay the seriousness of what is happening. You are fighting yourself as much as the situation!

It is entirely understandable that they froze. The person who got to arms length, my first response is to call that person a hero. No matter how effective or not their actions were. It is almost impossible to "think" yourself into charging at or suprise attacking someone like that while reloading or whatever.
Even when cornered, you would be suprised at what your brain would be advising you! IF you attacked it wouldnt be a conscious action at all, it would be subconscious survival instinct over-riding your thought process, and very often the (too late) last resort.

It really wasnt untill many years later, when this bloke died in prison, that the "person i know could really relax into life, without fearing this a-hole because she went witness at the trial and so on and ofcourse he made threats at that point etc

This Breivek person, should be put to death asap.