SideKicks

[Shaderon]

Ok I've just done my first break with a sidekick, I tried both methods (Thinking of starting "Shads method investigations" on Wednesday nights) and the one that got me the best result on my break was the one with the sword of the foot. My accuracy was better and although the force was better with the heel, the board didn't so much as bounce. When I did it with the sword of the foot, the board went through.

(Then I did a knife hand strike on the board afterwards and that went first time... :supcool: :boing1: Of course this being totally off topic I won't say that here.... was that out loud?)

 

[Hand Sword]

I only hit with the heel. I never liked the position of the blade, and how it would hit. I always felt like my ankle would snap with any strike.

 

[kidswarrior]

Well, this has certainly been an eye opener for me. Never thought the side blade kick would be controversial, or bring out so many opinions. Good stuff, tho, because if I ever have a student who is averse to it, this lets me know they have good company in so many good martial artists out there, and so I'll modify it for them. Appreciate all the replies, and the different reasoning behind it. Thanks, everyone. :asian:

 

[kidswarrior]

Ok I've just done my first break with a sidekick, I tried both methods (Thinking of starting "Shads method investigations" on Wednesday nights) and the one that got me the best result on my break was the one with the sword of the foot. My accuracy was better and although the force was better with the heel, the board didn't so much as bounce. When I did it with the sword of the foot, the board went through.

(Then I did a knife hand strike on the board afterwards and that went first time... :supcool: :boing1: Of course this being totally off topic I won't say that here.... was that out loud?)

Aha! A clue...:ultracool Do we have to send a check for this information? Seriously, Thanks, Shad, for confirming what I've always been taught, and continue to teach. Shows it works best at least for some of us.

 

[Shaderon]

Aha! A clue...:ultracool Do we have to send a check for this information? Seriously, Thanks, Shad, for confirming what I've always been taught, and continue to teach. Shows it works best at least for some of us.

Welcome. Any more investigations needed to be performed by an open minded Rookie, send em my way And no I'm not charging, if I charged it would question the validity of my findings.... I did Ethics of experiments in College

1,000,000 ancient Koreans can't be wrong.... well ok they can and there probably wasn't 1,000,000 but I was mis-quoting something ok?

 

[zDom]

Wearing shoes, specifically cowboy boots with a Cuban heel, my single 'real world' strike was with the heel to the side of the knee, inflicting a break ... wince ... I know ... I've felt guilty ever since :shame:.

Too bad you didn't have a film crew following you around. There are some MMA proponents who would have us believe that "knees are much stronger than we think" and easily stand up to the force of a sidekick

Ok I've just done my first break with a sidekick, I tried both methods (Thinking of starting "Shads method investigations" on Wednesday nights) and the one that got me the best result on my break was the one with the sword of the foot. My accuracy was better and although the force was better with the heel, the board didn't so much as bounce. When I did it with the sword of the foot, the board went through.

That could be attributed to your comfort level with the techniques.

Try some three-board breaks. I think you might then prefer using the heel over the blade of the foot

 

[kidswarrior]

Too bad you didn't have a film crew following you around. There are some MMA proponents who would have us believe that "knees are much stronger than we think" and easily stand up to the force of a sidekick

Exactly! Let's see, knee vs. cowboy boot heel...Hmmm

 

[tradrockrat]

That could be attributed to your comfort level with the techniques.

Try some three-board breaks. I think you might then prefer using the heel over the blade of the foot

My thoughts exactly...

 

[Sukerkin]

Thanks Dom and Kidswarrior, your comments made me raise a smile regarding an incident that I've always felt terrible about.

I hadn't heard that the MMA chaps were saying that knees will take more punishment that is commonly thought. So, for pragmatic discoursive purposes, I'll add that I don't think it was that hard a kick as I was in a cobblestoned alleyway (not ideal footing for cowboy boots!) but they (the boots) did have solid (wooden insert) heels.

Plus, power may have been assisted by the fact that I pushed off one of his mates I had in a wrist/elbow lock.

I think perhaps the most telling point tho' is that I caught him on the side of the knee as he was trying to circle around. The horrid bit is that it was as if my foot didn't even slow down as his leg folded the wrong way ... ick!

Off-topic but apposite object lesson of all this? Don't get into fights, avoid them :tup:.

Practising your techniques on boards (despite what Bruce said) is much nicer.

 

[pstarr]

Outer edge of the heel. It's relatively impervious to injury-

 

[MJS]

Sorry for neglecting this thread folks. Lots of great replies!

For myself, I prefer the heel. As Handsword stated, I too am not fond of the angle of the foot, when doing the blade kick. IMO, I feel that I'm getting much more power and a more solid kick with the heel. I've heard that the blade is more of a precision kick, but its still possible to throw a shot to the leg and hit with the heel.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Too bad you didn't have a film crew following you around. There are some MMA proponents who would have us believe that "knees are much stronger than we think" and easily stand up to the force of a sidekick

You mean you don't do that??

:lol:

 

[kidswarrior]

Outer edge of the heel. It's relatively impervious to injury-

Well, that's a new one for me. Kind of a blade heel kick, if I'm reading this right. Interesting.

 

[kidswarrior]

That could be attributed to your comfort level with the techniques.

Try some three-board breaks. I think you might then prefer using the heel over the blade of the foot

Been thinking about this on and off for a couple days (as an instructor, if I'm wrong want to change it now). And here is where I think I've landed: Side blade is for targets that can be 'cut', i.e. are meaty, as thigh, lower abdomen, side of knee, side of calf. These would equate to Shaderon's one-board successes, showing they're effective for the right target. Sort of a jab type kick, or knife hand strike (which can also generate a lot of power).

Side heel (what I call side thrust), I like for sturdier, harder, or bonier targets such as solid part of trunk, hip crease, lower back, straight on knee, ankle (almost a stomp), and the like. Sort of a knockout type kick. Akin to boxing hook or right cross, or in MA, a hammer fist. This would explain zDom's point that blade might be less effective against heavier reistance (if I read that post right).

Actually, this is how I've always practiced/preached, but this thread forced me to articulate my own system better. There is a place for both knife/sword hand, and hammer fist, just as side blade and side heel. Sometimes I want to use a meat cleaver, and sometimes a hammer. But never for the same job.

Much appreciated all posters. :asian:

 

[kidswarrior]

When you're doing this kick, what part of the foot do you prefer to hit with, the blade of the foot or the heel and why?

I'll post my answers shortly!

Mike

For some reason found myself going through some of my foundational books referencing some basic technique or other, and happened to remember this thread/question. And since my view differed from most (often use side of foot vs. heel), thought I'd see if the stuff I rely on for back-to-basics proved me wrong. Here's what I found (now granted, this is limited to my library, so pretty small sample--but some names are recognizable).

My first serious book on technique from way back when was Bong Soo Han's, Hapkido: Korean art of self-defense. He says/illustrates striking edge of the knife foot (Chok-Do) is the 'outside edge or the blade of the foot'. He shows the heel of the foot as used only for a straight on thrust kick (Deet-Bahl-Deum-Chi).

Kung Fu Basics by Paul Eng has been a short, sweet handbook for me. His section called 'Side Kick' says specifically that the outside edge of the foot is used as a knife edge, and as such is one of the strongest kicks in the kung fu arsenal, potentially stronger than the heel thrust (which, as Bong Soo Han, he shows only as a straight-on kick).

Bruce Tegner's complete book of self-defense recommends as one option the 'edge-of-shoe snap kick', mostly to the shin, although he also recommends the 'Stamp kick', which appears sometimes to be a side thrust, or side kick using the heel.

Major W.E. Fairbairn in Get Tough! shows the Boot (Side Kick), very much like Tegner's (actually, Fairbairn obviously preceded Tegner). He also identifies the 'Boot Defense', which is scraping the side of one's boot down the enemy's shin from top to bottom.

Simon Harrison in Kung Fu for girls: Self-defense with style, recommends using the edge of the sole of the shoe 'for scraping bones', much as Fairbairn's Boot Defense.

Another book I use for reference is Kung fu elements: Wushu training and martial arts application manual. Now, as the name says, this is Wushu and a lot of it is obviously meant for acrobatic more than combative application. Still, I notice that one of the kicks discussed is called the Low Cut Kick (xiachuaitui), with the outside edge of the foot at a downward angle (so, practical for mid-thigh down on a standing opponent).

Anyway, if nothing else proved to myself that the writings of at least some people whom I consider pretty knowledgeable stress the side of foot as a blade kick. :ultracool

 

[Tez3]

The side kick is my very worst kick, I can't kick high and it always comes off a bit wimpy when I do it! ( unless it's to the knee then it's not bad) I have seen some terrific side kicks in comps though so have always envied people with a good sidekick.I can do the blade of the foot bit easily enough, it's purely the height and power I can't get. I've never been taught the heel version so I'm going to try it out. Good discussion, I'm enjoying it!

 

[IcemanSK]

When you're doing this kick, what part of the foot do you prefer to hit with, the blade of the foot or the heel and why?

I'll post my answers shortly!

Mike

The heel. Always.

 

[marlon]

i find that if you do not hit with the heel you lose much of the rotational power from the hips/ pelvis. then it is a different kick altogether and a very different type of power.

my 2 cents

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[zDom]

Bruce Tegner's complete book of self-defense recommends as one option the 'edge-of-shoe snap kick', mostly to the shin, although he also recommends the 'Stamp kick', which appears sometimes to be a side thrust, or side kick using the heel.

I've got that book, too! It was my dad's. I recently found it again (I had lost it for many years after it was packed away in a box).

Very interesting to read it again from a new perspective.

While many respected and knowledgable martial artists use/advocate the blade of the foot, I will ALWAYS use the bottom of the heel.

"Different strokes for different folks" I suppose.

 

[jdinca]

The side kick is my very worst kick, I can't kick high and it always comes off a bit wimpy when I do it! ( unless it's to the knee then it's not bad) I have seen some terrific side kicks in comps though so have always envied people with a good sidekick.I can do the blade of the foot bit easily enough, it's purely the height and power I can't get. I've never been taught the heel version so I'm going to try it out. Good discussion, I'm enjoying it!

Not my best kick either. The knee is a good target, as is the bladder. Another good target is the anterior (front) of the hip joint. A properly placed kick could cause a posterior dislocation of the hip. Even if it doesn't it will slow the guy down and bend him over, presenting the head for all kinds of mayhem.