Shinwa vs Musashi vs other brands

[drop bear104]

Nice baseball swing. He can come and chop my firewood any day. Good job the bottle cant cut him back.

Yes it is a good job that sword fighting does not really happen at all any more.

 

[PhotonGuy6]

Well I actually do regular jungle clearing. I came second in All Japan Championships so do have cutting skills Since I started some years ago I have experimented with different blades. A normal WWll gunto that are quite sharp although factory made and a nice meaty shoto that I still own and use for throwing practice. Then there are all the Filipino blades I use. The forging is crap but it has been the different shapes weights and lengths that interest me. I have and still do cut fairly large trees 5/7 cms bamboo and heavy jungle growth etc By far the best is the kukri shape that outperforms any Japanese shape. But of course the edge needs constant sharpening.

There are basically two kinds of Japanese blades forged today. In Japan we dont use the word 'katana' So you can rest assured if anyone does its either not made there or its a foreign outlet. In Japan they forge "shinken". The variation is that some are used for Iai (Iaito). And other more meaty ones are forged for test cutting (tameshigiri) and batto jutsu. These are usually half polished (han togi) as highly polished blade tends to slip as it cuts The chinese produced passable blades too. It could be advantageous for more foreign blade makers to actually use people that "know how to cut". rather than some of the butchers you see on videos. There good blades out there. Foreign makers have no restrictions as they have in Japan and can use some amazing steel and decent machinery. You get what you pay for.

Interesting. So how did the word "katana" come to be used in the western world to refer to the classic samurai sword? You say that they're called "shinken" in Japan, or that's what they forge so how did the difference in terminology come to be?

Also, Im not so sure on this but I've heard that it can be hard to bring a good Japanese sword out of the country. The Japanese consider them artifacts exclusive to their culture and as such you might have a hard time getting it past customs if you try to leave Japan with such a sword. That's what I've heard but Im not sure as to the validity of that claim.

 

[Hyoho]

Interesting. So how did the word "katana" come to be used in the western world to refer to the classic samurai sword? You say that they're called "shinken" in Japan, or that's what they forge so how did the difference in terminology come to be?

Also, Im not so sure on this but I've heard that it can be hard to bring a good Japanese sword out of the country. The Japanese consider them artifacts exclusive to their culture and as such you might have a hard time getting it past customs if you try to leave Japan with such a sword. That's what I've heard but Im not sure as to the validity of that claim.

Shinken 真剣 means real or serious sword. A blade is registered by the smith at the Bunka Cho (Cultural Office) You are supposed to carry a copy when you carry the blade (I carry a copy) as Japan unlike other countries has Ju To Ho (Gun sword laws). As to leaving the country with it: That depends on how the present director of Bunka Cho wishes to interpret it. Years ago one could visit the local city office and be given an authorization letter. When you returned you just handed over the letter and got your registration back. I did take one out once and be told someone would have have to go to Tokyo Bunkacho Hombu, collect my registration and meet me at the airport.

The last time I brought out a 3.8 they came to the house. We dismantled it and they made record of all of the parts and stood on a pair of steps to photograph the blade. They then compiled a folder for me to show to customs with authorization. After that I didn't need to go back.

So swordsmiths or somebody can visit the Bunka Cho and hand in the registration to get them out of the country. There are certain rules as to what constitutes a Japanese sword. One of them is: Does it have a mekugi ana? (hole for the peg to lock into) I took a tanto (dagger) out as it has no hole and is a knife!

Does your blade have to be Japanese to be good? I would say no as smiths are limited to an old cultural method and materials. I really cant advise who make the best blade outside Japan as I have never bought one outside. Is that bad? When I watch a video I am not actually looking at the blade but the expertise of the wielder. If I cant see that I might as well watch a guy chopping wood with an axe.

Somebody mentioned Canada? The main group that use live blades import them from Chinese smiths.

 

[Hyoho]

Yes it is a good job that sword fighting does not really happen at all any more.

Yes you are right on that. That's why it has become faceted into cutting objects, fencing and studying old tested techniques. Martial arts doesn't count for much either as people can and will shoot you. It's all a cultural sport like pursuit.

 

[drop bear104]

Yes you are right on that. That's why it has become faceted into cutting objects, fencing and studying old tested techniques. Martial arts doesn't count for much either as people can and will shoot you. It's all a cultural sport like pursuit.

And that is the thing. If phobios enjoys waving a sword around like brave heart. It is as much a legitimate pursuit as anything else really.

And he can get away with a $150 sword so long as it wont break and as much training needed to defeat a plastic bottle in mortal combat without stabbing himself.

 

[Hyoho]

And that is the thing. If phobios enjoys waving a sword around like brave heart. It is as much a legitimate pursuit as anything else really.

And he can get away with a $150 sword so long as it wont break and as much training needed to defeat a plastic bottle in mortal combat without stabbing himself.

My point was none of this is M.A. I guess some people just dont know the difference.

 

[Chris Parker]

And that is the thing. If phobios enjoys waving a sword around like brave heart. It is as much a legitimate pursuit as anything else really.

And he can get away with a $150 sword so long as it wont break and as much training needed to defeat a plastic bottle in mortal combat without stabbing himself.

By the same token, he can just get any random gun, provided the trigger won't fall off, and as much training as needed to spin the thing around his finger looking cool… but we're still not going to recommend that either.

Oh, and a $150 sword that won't have a reasonable chance of breaking, especially if he tries cutting anything reasonably solid without actual education and training? Yeah… not so much… there are two things that lead to broken blades, cheap construction and poor technique… so...

 

[drop bear104]

By the same token, he can just get any random gun, provided the trigger won't fall off, and as much training as needed to spin the thing around his finger looking cool… but we're still not going to recommend that either.

Oh, and a $150 sword that won't have a reasonable chance of breaking, especially if he tries cutting anything reasonably solid without actual education and training? Yeah… not so much… there are two things that lead to broken blades, cheap construction and poor technique… so...

That is precisely what gun training is. Enough to not shoot someone.

QRA Firearms Licence Safety Courses - Queensland Rifle Association - QRA

Pick up enough rifle for under a grand.

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But the argument wasn't whether he could chop wood with the thing safely but whether he could kill a man with it effectively.

That is the quote.

"Nice baseball swing. He can come and chop my firewood any day. Good job the bottle cant cut him back."

Condor is a reputable brand by the way. For what it is.

 

[PhotonGuy6]

As I recall, he wanted one of the magic swords sold at the Ren Fair.

What I wanted was a european style sword which is very different from a Japanese sword and which you are much more likely to find at a renaissance faire. And the art for using it is also very different than the arts used for wielding Japanese swords. And the fellow who was selling them never made any claim that he made magical swords like what you find in fairy tales while I spoke to him and I spoke to him many times.

 

[PhotonGuy6]

Yes you are right on that. That's why it has become faceted into cutting objects, fencing and studying old tested techniques. Martial arts doesn't count for much either as people can and will shoot you. It's all a cultural sport like pursuit.

True enough, if you try to use martial arts to fight with today there's a good chance you will get shot but I like to pursue the martial arts as a method of developing myself physically and mentally and the thing about the martial arts is it becomes a part of you and you always have it with you.

 

[Chris Parker]

Interesting. So how did the word "katana" come to be used in the western world to refer to the classic samurai sword?

"Katana" (also pronounced "to" [toh]) is written with this character - 刀. In essence, it means "blade"… which can be used to refer to a sword (pronounced "katana" when read by itself), or used in conjunction with other characters to create specific terminology (太刀 - "tachi"/wide blade, 竹刀 - "shinai"/bamboo blade etc). As a result, the term "katana" can apply to a range of items… so a distinction is made for specific items.

When it comes to properly made Japanese swords (nihonto - 日本刀), the most common term used is, as Hyoho said, "shinken" 真剣, meaning "true sword" (small side note here: the second character there [剣] "ken", also pronounced "tsurugi", is a word that refers to a sword itself, as opposed to 刀, which simply implies a blade of no definite sizing). The term is largely to differentiate between shinken (live/real sword), mogito (imitation sword), bokuto (wooden sword), iaito (sword for iai, today often made from a zinc/aluminium alloy), and so on.

You say that they're called "shinken" in Japan, or that's what they forge so how did the difference in terminology come to be?

It's largely a preference, more than anything else… "katana" is still correct, it's just not something often heard from serious Japanese martial artists. Think of it as the preferred lexicon of practitioners…

Also, Im not so sure on this but I've heard that it can be hard to bring a good Japanese sword out of the country. The Japanese consider them artifacts exclusive to their culture and as such you might have a hard time getting it past customs if you try to leave Japan with such a sword. That's what I've heard but Im not sure as to the validity of that claim.

Hyoho is the guy to listen to on this regard, but all I'll add to his comments is that you really should stop listening to anything that sounds so overtly romanticised…

That is precisely what gun training is. Enough to not shoot someone.

QRA Firearms Licence Safety Courses - Queensland Rifle Association - QRA

What? That's not even remotely what I said.

I said "enough training to be able to spin the thing around his finger looking cool"… as that has as much practical value as "waving a sword around like braveheart". Besides which, the link you provided talks about the course being centred around gun safety… but nothing about "enough not to shoot someone". So… what on earth are you going on about?

Pick up enough rifle for under a grand.

Savage .22LR RIFLES

And what the hell does that have to do with anything here? Are you saying that a $1,000 rifle is the same as a $150 sword? Is there a connection? We're not giving suggestions on firearms here, you know… so…. what on earth are you going on about?

But the argument wasn't whether he could chop wood with the thing safely but whether he could kill a man with it effectively.

That is the quote.

"Nice baseball swing. He can come and chop my firewood any day. Good job the bottle cant cut him back."

You really don't have a clue what you're talking about here, do you? Hyoho's comment was on the "technique" displayed in the clip (the guy cutting bottles)… which was, from a swordsmanship perspective, completely lacking in every sense, and ill-suited to the usage of a sword. His "technique", such as it was, resembled a base-ball bat swing far more than a competent swordsman, and would be suitable only for chopping wood (which allows you to over-commit, and more), whereas the usage of a sword requires very different mechanics and skills. His final comment of "Good job the bottle can't cut him back" is a way of saying that he would be killed if he thought he could go against an actual (living) opponent.

So no, it's not about whether he could chop wood, it's about what his technique is actually suited to. Oh, and before you say it, the fact that the very sharp sword went through the very soft material of the bottles doesn't mean that his technique isn't woeful and desperately lacking… swords cut. Easily. It's kinda what they do. And yeah, he could potentially kill a man with it… if they were tied down, and he had half an hour to hack his way through them… it wouldn't be pretty, and I'd hardly call it "effective"… but the guy would be dead at the end… of course, in a combative environment, it would be quite a different story…

The problem here is that Hyoho and I know what we're talking about… and you don't have the first clue.

Condor is a reputable brand by the way. For what it is.

How would you know? What experience do you have with swordsmanship? Are you simply going on marketing and the reviews of people like the fools thinking they have some expertise in the video you linked?

 

[Hyoho]

[QUOTE="Chris Parker, post: 1773861, member: 1

So no, it's not about whether he could chop wood, it's about what his technique is actually suited to. Oh, and before you say it, the fact that the very sharp sword went through the very soft material of the bottles doesn't mean that his technique isn't woeful and desperately lacking… swords cut. Easily. It's kinda what they do. And yeah, he could potentially kill a man with it… if they were tied down, and he had half an hour to hack his way through them… it wouldn't be pretty, and I'd hardly call it "effective"… but the guy would be dead at the end… of course, in a combative environment, it would be quite a different story…[/QUOTE]

I could add to that and say that Japanese are keen the get away from the bad image that the sword has attained e.g. WWll. It has only survived because of its cultural educational assets. Although there are some Batto Renmei that have military links it really is not the image they want to promote. You will notice that most of these videos are made by foreigners who have no idea of the ideals of Japan. A lot are just cashing in on making a hard to obtain item. My headmasters over the years have promoted me to put forward a particular image and as one said a "window on the world" to try and help people with swordwork and its purpose nowadays. I rarely put in my own ideas. I just hand on what they taught me as a successor.

 

[PhotonGuy6]

Well here is an article I found about the law in Japan regarding swords. If this is true I must say they can be quite harsh and you have many more rights in the USA.

Nihonto Kanji Pages - Japanese sword laws

 

[drop bear104]

You really don't have a clue what you're talking about here, do you? Hyoho's comment was on the "technique" displayed in the clip (the guy cutting bottles)… which was, from a swordsmanship perspective, completely lacking in every sense, and ill-suited to the usage of a sword. His "technique", such as it was, resembled a base-ball bat swing far more than a competent swordsman, and would be suitable only for chopping wood (which allows you to over-commit, and more), whereas the usage of a sword requires very different mechanics and skills. His final comment of "Good job the bottle can't cut him back" is a way of saying that he would be killed if he thought he could go against an actual (living) opponent.

So no, it's not about whether he could chop wood, it's about what his technique is actually suited to. Oh, and before you say it, the fact that the very sharp sword went through the very soft material of the bottles doesn't mean that his technique isn't woeful and desperately lacking… swords cut. Easily. It's kinda what they do. And yeah, he could potentially kill a man with it… if they were tied down, and he had half an hour to hack his way through them… it wouldn't be pretty, and I'd hardly call it "effective"… but the guy would be dead at the end… of course, in a combative environment, it would be quite a different story…

The problem here is that Hyoho and I know what we're talking about… and you don't have the first clue.

Sorry there is a misunderstanding here. It is not that I don't know about swordsmanship that is the issue(which is true). it is that I don't care whether that guys technique will win a sword fight or not because nobody gets into sword fights.

We are virgins discussing sex.

You are an expert in an irrelevant pursuit. That you have never had to rely on and never will. And so if a person swings a $150 sword baseball style at a bottle he will be killing as many people in sword fights as you have with years of training and a more expensive sword.

Now I don,t look down on you pursuing any activity you want for any or no reason. But then I don't look down on photon guy or even back yard bottle cut guy either for pursuing theirs.

And if photonguy wants to pursue some sort of traditional path to swordsmanship then yes you are the expert and you can go buck wild being one.

But I am getting the impression that he doesn't and am giving him a cheaper simpler option.

 

[pgsmith]

Sorry there is a misunderstanding here. It is not that I don't know about swordsmanship that is the issue(which is true). it is that I don't care whether that guys technique will win a sword fight or not because nobody gets into sword fights.

We are virgins discussing sex.

You are an expert in an irrelevant pursuit. That you have never had to rely on and never will. And so if a person swings a $150 sword baseball style at a bottle he will be killing as many people in sword fights as you have with years of training and a more expensive sword.

Now I don,t look down on you pursuing any activity you want for any or no reason. But then I don't look down on photon guy or even back yard bottle cut guy either for pursuing theirs.

And if photonguy wants to pursue some sort of traditional path to swordsmanship then yes you are the expert and you can go buck wild being one.

But I am getting the impression that he doesn't and am giving him a cheaper simpler option.

I agree with you in general, and I'm generally pretty open to those that wish to play with swords as they're a lot of fun, provided you use some brains since they're extremely dangerous toys. However, this is a martial arts forum, and this particular forum is devoted to Japanese swords and sword arts. Neither the Chinese factory made swords that the OP was asking about nor the video that was posted has anything to do with Japanese swords and sword arts, so it received a (rightfully) dismissive reply.

You're absolutely correct in that nobody in today's society will have to engage in sword combat. However, that's not why we train in it. Heck, the vast majority of martial artists that I know have never had to use what they've learned in the dojo by engaging in hand to hand combat. Doesn't mean they're not quick to laugh at youtube warriors posting silly stuff that they call martial arts. It has been my experience that the intangibles learned through martial art training of any kind are often much more useful than the actual techniques learned.

 

[Hyoho]

Well here is an article I found about the law in Japan regarding swords. If this is true I must say they can be quite harsh and you have many more rights in the USA.

Nihonto Kanji Pages - Japanese sword laws

Not really harsh at all. If the blades are owned by people that are qualified to use them or sell them or a collector/appraiser. Authorities never bother you and sometimes ask advice. I must have well over 500 students connected to sword arts that graduated to join police/riot squad or prison service. Even in a city of a million we all know each other.

Don"t want to open a can of worms but maybe a few more countries could take tip from Japan when it come to weapons the world might be safer place.

 

[PhotonGuy6]

Sorry there is a misunderstanding here. It is not that I don't know about swordsmanship that is the issue(which is true). it is that I don't care whether that guys technique will win a sword fight or not because nobody gets into sword fights.

We are virgins discussing sex.

You are an expert in an irrelevant pursuit. That you have never had to rely on and never will. And so if a person swings a $150 sword baseball style at a bottle he will be killing as many people in sword fights as you have with years of training and a more expensive sword.

Now I don,t look down on you pursuing any activity you want for any or no reason. But then I don't look down on photon guy or even back yard bottle cut guy either for pursuing theirs.

And if photonguy wants to pursue some sort of traditional path to swordsmanship then yes you are the expert and you can go buck wild being one.

But I am getting the impression that he doesn't and am giving him a cheaper simpler option.

Swordsmanship still has uses today its just that its uses has changed. Back in the day horses were a primary means of transportation. Now, ever since cars became widespread there is no longer any need for horses to be used to get around. People still do ride horses, equestrian is a big sport and a big pastime, but its use has changed. Now days people ride horses as a sport, a form of recreation, and a form of entertainment, so equestrian is still done in this day and age just for different reasons. By the same token traditional swordsmanship still has its uses. Chances are you are not going to ever engage in a real sword fight today but swordsmanship is a hobby, a form of exercise and physical and mental development and its a fascinating art that has deep cultural roots in the past. So people still do it today just for different reasons.

 

[drop bear104]

Swordsmanship still has uses today its just that its uses has changed. Back in the day horses were a primary means of transportation. Now, ever since cars became widespread there is no longer any need for horses to be used to get around. People still do ride horses, equestrian is a big sport and a big pastime, but its use has changed. Now days people ride horses as a sport, a form of recreation, and a form of entertainment, so equestrian is still done in this day and age just for different reasons. By the same token traditional swordsmanship still has its uses. Chances are you are not going to ever engage in a real sword fight today but swordsmanship is a hobby, a form of exercise and physical and mental development and its a fascinating art that has deep cultural roots in the past. So people still do it today just for different reasons.

I don't disagree with that. I have no issue with the deep and fulfilling culture of traditional swordsmanship.

But we are getting advice from guys about horse riding who have only ever done horse stance.

 

[Hyoho]

I don't disagree with that. I have no issue with the deep and fulfilling culture of traditional swordsmanship.

But we are getting advice from guys about horse riding who have only ever done horse stance.

Bajo dachi? You will need a longer blade for that one! Then there arises the problem of not cutting your own horse.

 

[Hyoho]

Chances are you are not going to ever engage in a real sword fight today but swordsmanship is a hobby, a form of exercise and physical and mental development and its a fascinating art that has deep cultural roots in the past. So people still do it today just for different reasons.

You should engage in 40 minutes Kendo with a Japanese riot squad guy. Or maybe do daily fighting practice opposite 50 sandan students with eight years of daily practice then tell me how 'fascinating' it is. Admittedly there is no chance of dying but hospitalization is a distinct possibility for someone. When you are competing to get a place on a team to try and win the All Japan Championships.

Here's one of my old boys. All good clean fun at this level though. They dont turn on the tap until sadly its a two point match. They just hang around for extension where one point wins and let rip.