Rmur mill about Poomsae

[bluekey88]

I guess that makes my opinions irrelevant too. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter. Exile is what I like to think of as a Scholar-Practitioner. He studies and researches but also does. These are the people whose opinions I tend to trust,,,,bescasue not only do they know the "ivory tower" aspects of their art but come down in the trenches and get dirty putting theory to the test. People like this tend to be more flexible and willing to change their thinking in light of evidence. it is in this model that I think the future of TKD will be saved...should the upper ehelons go that way.

Personally, if I discounted the opinion of everyone who had less expereince than me...i'd be a terrible husband, father, therapist, friend and martila artist. I can list numerous times when wisdom came forth "from the mouth of babes"...wisdom I totally could not see because I was too busy being "experienced" instead of looking at what was right in front of my nose.

Peace,
Erik

 

[dancingalone]

I respect Exile's right to an opinion. However, the fact that he feels qualified to comment on the state of Taekwondo and where it should be heading when he has practiced for six years and holds merely a 1st Dan makes it very hard for me (and I'm sure others) to take his opinions seriously.

Well, you have yet to explain why someone who may not be an expert in the practice of TKD cannot have a valid opinion about its operations or governance. I am not an expert chef, but my palate can tell when I am being served something delicious or not.

That aside, if you believe high rank or long years in "practice" necessarily equate to expertise, I disagree there with you also. I might have more respect for your position if the dan system wasn't so subjective and open to abuse. We've all seen kodanja who should perhaps swap their black belts for colored ones.

 

[exile]

And yet, one of the primary problems that the Kukkiwon had to deal with for years was the fact that the President did not practice Taekwondo. In other words, very high ranking men who did practice had to submit their students' applications for Dan and advanced Dan to be signed by a man who did not practice.
I respect Exile's right to an opinion. However, the fact that he feels qualified to comment on the state of Taekwondo and where it should be heading when he has practiced for six years and holds merely a 1st Dan makes it very hard for me (and I'm sure others) to take his opinions seriously. The fact that he happens to be a moderator for MT is totally irrelevant btw.
I'm glad he has shown such an interest in MA history and culture, as have I. The fact remains, however, that he is a 1st Dan with six years experience. In any legitmate Taekwondo organization that I can think of, he wouldn't even be allowed to judge.

I'm clearly not going to get an answer to my direct questions from YoungMan; my impression from his text here is that he hasn't actually bothered to read my reply to him. But can anyone tell me how my comment that I was excited about the prospect of some new, SD-oriented hyungs constitutes an opinion? Or a judgment about the state of TKD and where it's heading? Or amounts to anything other than an expression of excitement about the prospect of... etc. etc.

BTW, in the academic world, someone who's been 'training' for six years would correspond to a second year graduate student. And if a second year graduate student stood up at a conference and challenged the analysis someone with decades of teaching and research experience had presented—doesn't matter what the field, btw—and the 'senior member of the profession' had, instead of defending his or her position, replied, 'Tell me, just what are your qualifications in [field of your choice]—what's your highest degree? Where have you published', the reaction from me, or anyone else who's a senior member of the field in question, would be, 'Migod, what a pompous jerk!! Respond to the kid's challenge by showing where s/he's wrong, or admit s/he's got a point.' But if all that the grad student did was comment, in a group discussion at a bar over a beer, that s/he was excited by the appearance of a new textbook focusing on certain recent discoveries or methods of analysis in [field of your choice], and this very senior professor of [field of your choice] challenged the student about their experience on that, my reaction (and that any other senior member of the field) would be, 'this guy's had too much to drink already, someone get him home'. Or, 'this guy's meds need to be adjusted'. Or, 'this guy needs to see a neurologist now'.

Fortunately, this sort of thing almost never happens in academe, precisely because no one wants to look that ridiculous. I point these facts out merely for comparison purposes, from a realm I've been professionally involved in for the past forty-plus years. As almost a complete beginner in the MAs, I really don't know how things work here...

PS: Terry, I feel obliged to apologize for the thread drift my innocent expresson of pleasure at the news in your OP seems to have triggered, and I want to thank all you good folks who've indicated your own views about how much rank one needs to have in order to voice an opinion—I appreciate it, and it speaks well for the kind of rationality that by and large governs conversation on this board. I'll just say, again, I'm eager to see if this rumor proves true, and if so, what the new forms will look like. Why wouldn't someone actively involved in TKD feel that way? :idunno:

 

[StuartA]

However, the fact that he feels qualified to comment on the state of Taekwondo and where it should be heading when he has practiced for six years and holds merely a 1st Dan makes it very hard for me (and I'm sure others) to take his opinions seriously.

Not me.. I find Exiles posts well thought out, well researched, logical and not indoctrinated in any of the "its like this cos Master So & so says so so it must be so" stuff!

I hardly watch or play football (soccer to you US guys) but I have seen it for years and can comment that the players get paid to much and too much pansying around is allowed on the pitch! Similarly I can comment on WTF TKD as even though I dont train in it I know a fair bit about it!

TBH, I think 6 years is enough to know how something works, especially someone with Exiles inquisitive mind... whats more, he wasnt even making an "official" type statement, just exclaiming "that would be cool" so I dont see your problem or even why the question came up!

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

I'm clearly not going to get an answer to my direct questions from YoungMan; my impression from his text here is that he hasn't actually bothered to read my reply to him. But can anyone tell me how my comment that I was excited about the prospect of some new, SD-oriented hyungs constitutes an opinion? Or a judgment about the state of TKD and where it's heading? Or amounts to anything other than an expression of excitement about the prospect of... etc. etc.

Its an opinion.. your opinion and not one based on ignorance anyway. I see no rerason for you to explain yourself further. Your post here already show you know what you are talking about, even if you wanted to express further views on the subject!

Stuart

 

[bluekey88]

To steer things back on topic. I have not heard anything about new SD forms. That would be neat...but really, a simple focus on the SD applications within the Taeguk poomse is all that's needed. Hell, if KKW just put up some video or pictures with better techs than they have in the past would go a LONG way in my eyes towards giving some credibility back to the SD side of KKW TKD.

Peace,
Erik

 

[BrandonLucas]

Would it be possible to see new forms that are universal for all orgs?

I think new SD oriented forms would be awesome, but the TKD I practice is ITF based, so I doubt we would be getting any cool new forms to learn....

I just think it would be cool to have the same forms for all aspects of TKD...not necessarily to unite WTF and ITF and KKW and the other orgs or anything, but just to have a universal form system...something that other MAists from other arts don't have to guess that it's a TKD form.

 

[exile]

Would it be possible to see new forms that are universal for all orgs?

I think new SD oriented forms would be awesome, but the TKD I practice is ITF based, so I doubt we would be getting any cool new forms to learn....

I just think it would be cool to have the same forms for all aspects of TKD...not necessarily to unite WTF and ITF and KKW and the other orgs or anything, but just to have a universal form system...something that other MAists from other arts don't have to guess that it's a TKD form.

That's a very interesting idea, Brandon... I don't think I've ever heard anyone suggest that before: a kind of universal canon of forms. Does anyone know of a TMA where something like that exists?

My impression is that there are a large number of kata in various styles of karate which are freely shared amongst the different styles. Some schools and some instructors don't teach this one or that one, but I don't know if it's ever true that there are certain forms that everyone, say, in Wado-ryu learns and certain forms that no one in Wado-ryu learns... seems to be more the case that there's a big 'pool' of forms and some styles tend to specialize more in one part of that pool and other styles emphasize others....

 

[miguksaram]

Would it be possible to see new forms that are universal for all orgs?

I think new SD oriented forms would be awesome, but the TKD I practice is ITF based, so I doubt we would be getting any cool new forms to learn....

I just think it would be cool to have the same forms for all aspects of TKD...not necessarily to unite WTF and ITF and KKW and the other orgs or anything, but just to have a universal form system...something that other MAists from other arts don't have to guess that it's a TKD form.

To many egos would prohibit such a thing unfortunately. My question is why do we need the SD forms or why does KKW need to explain the SD in its present forms? Shouldn't an instructor be able to interpet the forms on their own? If SD forms are really neccessary, then why not borrow from KSW forms?

 

[Ninjamom]

On a related note -

At our school, one of the requirements for 4th Dan (Master rank) is the development and demonstration of your own original form (as well as several original takedowns and self-defense moves, demonstrated on 1 or 2 attackers). While I'm not sure this is a universal requirement for Kukkiwon rank advancement, I assume that other schools have similar requirements at some point.

1. Does your school have a requirement for TBD Dan level candidates to devise their own poomsae?
2. Have you done so?
3. Do yours/your students' include robust self defense applications?

 

[BrandonLucas]

On a related note -

At our school, one of the requirements for 4th Dan (Master rank) is the development and demonstration of your own original form (as well as several original takedowns and self-defense moves, demonstrated on 1 or 2 attackers). While I'm not sure this is a universal requirement for Kukkiwon rank advancement, I assume that other schools have similar requirements at some point.

1. Does your school have a requirement for TBD Dan level candidates to devise their own poomsae?
2. Have you done so?
3. Do yours/your students' include robust self defense applications?

Our dojang doesn't have this as a requirement, but I really like the idea.

 

[bluekey88]

At my school between first and second dan we have 8 intermediate tests. Throughout these tests you are required to create increasingly longer kicking tecghniqeus (4,6 8 and 10 kicks) also you ave to create a 12 move and then a 20 move poomse. In the gup ranks you also have to create self defens emoves to chokes, grabs and then do instant creation self defense to attacks at 1st dan, instant creation to punches goign fro 2nd dan.

There is no requirement to make creation kicking techs and creation poomse have "meaning" but I always strive for a theme and to have an idea for a reason for my moves as well. I think it gives them more substance.

Peace,
Erik

 

[exile]

A new book, Creating Kata, about individual form creation—what the rationale is, what a good form needs, and so on—has just come out; I'll try to get the information on it. It's bound to be thought-provoking, whatever conclusion one comes to; the author, Dave Nielsen, is an advanced karateka of long standing, and he has laid out his thinking in careful detail, from what I can tell, so that people can come to their own conclusions. Iain Abernethy has an introduction to the book that I have read, which introduces a very interesting historical perspective on the whole question of kata creation---as usual with IA, he succeeds in demystifying, in the friendliest possible way, yet another topic around which a lot of reverential fuzz has accumulated.

BTW, Bill Burgar, in his wonderful Five Years, One Kata—where he describes how, somewhere around his third or fourth dan, he dropped his standard training routine and spent five year studying one kata, Gojushiho, intensively (much as Funakoshi and Motobu did with Naihanchi), analyzing and working out the application of every movement and angle in it and pressure testing what he came up with—also advocates, for the very advanced practitioner, kata creation as an exercise in martial combat understanding, and maybe the severest test of a practitioner's grasp of the fundamentals of her or his art.

 

[miguksaram]

On a related note -

At our school, one of the requirements for 4th Dan (Master rank) is the development and demonstration of your own original form (as well as several original takedowns and self-defense moves, demonstrated on 1 or 2 attackers). While I'm not sure this is a universal requirement for Kukkiwon rank advancement, I assume that other schools have similar requirements at some point.

1. Does your school have a requirement for TBD Dan level candidates to devise their own poomsae?
2. Have you done so?
3. Do yours/your students' include robust self defense applications?

We don't have a requirement to have a creative form for our dan ranks. However, we do require you to be able to do free form self defense. Now for my sword class I actually do require them to do a creative sword form at the 4th kyu level.

 

[bignick]

Just checking in, was there ever a consensus as to what happened with the supposed new competition forms that the WTF/Kukkiwon would create? I never even saw one performed.

Is there any resources or links on these?

Also I know the Kukkiwon has been redoing their standards on all the dan forms. Is there any resources on these in regards to stance changes, etc?

 

[terrylamar]

Also I know the Kukkiwon has been redoing their standards on all the dan forms. Is there any resources on these in regards to stance changes, etc?

The Kukkiwon produced a 6 DVD set in 2007. It is available through many suppliers. It cost somewhere around $129.00. It is the same material taught at their Poomsae seminars.

 

[terryl965]

PS: Terry, I feel obliged to apologize for the thread drift my innocent expresson of pleasure at the news in your OP seems to have triggered, and I want to thank all you good folks who've indicated your own views about how much rank one needs to have in order to voice an opinion—I appreciate it, and it speaks well for the kind of rationality that by and large governs conversation on this board. I'll just say, again, I'm eager to see if this rumor proves true, and if so, what the new forms will look like. Why wouldn't someone actively involved in TKD feel that way? :idunno:

Well first let me say say what you need to say, my commit is towards Youngman rigt now. I am a 4th since five years ago, I have been doing TKD since 1969, I tested so I could get KKW for my students since my GM is getting older by his request if not for that I would still be a third, so by your standerd I do not hold enough rank to be serious but yet I gave probaly 15 years more experience than you. So what does that make me? Exile is a serious student that looks at every angle and just not the one his instructor says, I would take his views alot more serious than yours simply because you are so closed minded about people opinion in the Art, for you it is this way or it is wrong. In my own opinion you are the one holding back TKD simply because you refuse to accept the past. I wish you could except views outside your own but each there own, remember one must not be her since the beginning to shed light on the past and future.

 

[miguksaram]

A new book, Creating Kata, about individual form creation...

I'd be interested in getting the information on this when you get a chance. Thank you.

 

[Logan]

Yes it does matter. You can have all the opinions in the world regarding whether Taekwondo is headed in the right direction. But if you are a 1st Dan with 5-6 years experience, I hardly think that qualifies you to speak as an authority on the Art. There are lots of people with just a high school diploma who think they know what's wrong with the world and how to solve it. Those guys are a dime a dozen. And even if he had 30 years experience in BJJ, that's irrelevant to the state of Taekwondo and the creation of new forms. Great for him but irrelevant.
Sorry about steering the thread off course by the way.

To throw my 2c in, I have more years in tkd than Exile but given the quality of his posts since I have been reading this board, I would bow to his opinion on most matters.

In relation to the original post, I have been...disappointed... with a lot of the official kukkiwon changes of late. If you are practicing an established martial art that has remained relatively unchanged throughout several lifetimes, then I would accept it without question. Having certain changes every few years leads me (and others) to the simple question of "why?". What is wrong that needs changing and what does the change signify?

 

[BrandonLucas]

To throw my 2c in, I have more years in tkd than Exile but given the quality of his posts since I have been reading this board, I would bow to his opinion on most matters.

In relation to the original post, I have been...disappointed... with a lot of the official kukkiwon changes of late. If you are practicing an established martial art that has remained relatively unchanged throughout several lifetimes, then I would accept it without question. Having certain changes every few years leads me (and others) to the simple question of "why?". What is wrong that needs changing and what does the change signify?

I can agree with part of that...If it ain't broke, don't fix it...

But I think new SD oriented forms would actually be a good change, as opposed to all the other changes that have happened recently.