Rmur mill about Poomsae

[Tez3]

Agreed. Time to get back on topic.

Dancingalone, I saw clips of the forms you mentioned. The flow is sort of what I was thinking of, but I would combine the flowing action with the element of power prevalent in modern Taekwondo and add more kicks. I would like to see more jumping front and side kicks, as well as spin kicks and at least one jumping back roundhouse. In other words, take the flow of Taekkyun, but add power and the high, spinning, and jumping kicks of Korean kicking. Best of the old and new.

I've always wondered why in nearly all the styles katas/forms I've seen or done there isn't more kicks, I can't recall seeing a kata with a roundhouse kick at all never mind jumping ones. The only kicks I've seen really are basic front and side kicks. Seems odd to leave kicks out in any style really let alone TKD.

 

[Laurentkd]

I've always wondered why in nearly all the styles katas/forms I've seen or done there isn't more kicks, I can't recall seeing a kata with a roundhouse kick at all never mind jumping ones. The only kicks I've seen really are basic front and side kicks. Seems odd to leave kicks out in any style really let alone TKD.

My instructor says his instructer says that originally sparring was intended to practice kicks aand forms were more for upper body practice. Of course, sparring was different back then...

 

[exile]

I've always wondered why in nearly all the styles katas/forms I've seen or done there isn't more kicks, I can't recall seeing a kata with a roundhouse kick at all never mind jumping ones. The only kicks I've seen really are basic front and side kicks. Seems odd to leave kicks out in any style really let alone TKD.

The kata, and forms in related arts, were originally recordings of combat-effective techniques, and high/complex kicks were just not part of the arsenal that people like Matsumura, Azato, Otosu, Peichin and the other Okinawan karate pioneers used as fighting methods. Motobu in his writings makes it clear that the kata were regarded as fighting styles themselves, rather than being mere components of separate arts. The lack of complex kicks suggests a suspicion on the part of the early karate masters that such kicks would be useful at the typical fighting distances of violent civilian encounters—their preference seems to have been, train techniques for close quarters, and the katas, as records of those techs, would inevitably show very few kicks.

It's interesting to see how this changed, but not very much, as time went by. If you compare the kata Empi with the Korean borrowing Eunbi (even the name of this hyung was left essentially unchanged), what you see is that certain leg strikes that were based on the assumption of CQ combat, involving nasty groin strikes and other techs based on closing the distance, have been converted into a stylistically preferable high kick. Take a look at the bunkai Paul James offers for a certain recurrent movement sequence in Empi. In Eunbi, those knee strikes James illustrates are replaced by high front snap kicks, with the knee strike reinterpreted as merely the chamber for those high kicks. The Empi leg movements make complete sense at the close range the combat assumes, in the context of the associated hand techs—but the high front snap kicks in Eunbi are seriously problematic, because they imply a fighting range that doesn't fit at all well with the kind of close-in attacks that the bunkai for the hand techs represent.

So what you see seems to be a kind of progressive revisionism with respect to the original Japanse forms and their combat interpretation, in the direction of more acrobatic and stylized interpretation of leg movements. Even so, the majority of movements in virtually any of the classic TKD hyungs are hand/arm techs, a legacy of their sources in Shotokan, or in a few instances, still older versions of karate. Those new hyungs that we saw videos of quite some time back, or the Chloe Bruce type performances, show the next phase of this process, with the CQ combat content replaced almost entirely by acrobatics....

 

[YoungMan]

My take on this:

Historically, Taekkyun did not utilize forms, being a dynamic combat-oriented art. In fact, forms are a relatively recent invention. It would stand to reason that Taekwondo, originally heavily influenced by Japanese styles after the Occupation, would incorporate the Japanese-style forms, especially since their native styles didn't use them.
Only later, when Korean styles were allowed to grow independent of outside intervention, would native Korean techniques (i.e. advanced kicking) be incorporated into forms designed for and by Koreans.
And since forms should be a holistic representation of the culture that spawned them, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that modern Korean forms should incorporate the advanced kicking of the culture that designed them.

 

[dancingalone]

I've always wondered why in nearly all the styles katas/forms I've seen or done there isn't more kicks, I can't recall seeing a kata with a roundhouse kick at all never mind jumping ones. The only kicks I've seen really are basic front and side kicks. Seems odd to leave kicks out in any style really let alone TKD.

I realize the ATA Songahm style of TKD is primarily a USA phenomenon, but let's credit their forms for having lots and lots of kicking. Of course, I don't believe the forms are really more than just a series of techniques strung together into a predetermine floor pattern, but as TKD forms they do display all the nice kicks available in the TKD array.

 

[dancingalone]

My take on this:
And since forms should be a holistic representation of the culture that spawned them, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that modern Korean forms should incorporate the advanced kicking of the culture that designed them.

The Taekyon discussion aside, I agree with this part of your post. Any onlookers should also check out the Kuk Sool Won forms for some interesting interpretations on modern Korean-invented hyung.

 

[StuartA]

It is a real post and I stand by it.

:uhyeah:

just what would a specifically dedicated SD-based hyung look like? I mean, if folks like our own Stuart Anslow (StuartA) and Simon John O'Neil (SJON) are right in their detailed practical analyses of TKD hyungs, there is a whole rich world of combat applications in the forms we already have.

I agree.. I mean how many times are the KKW gonna chnage patterns until they look just like Okinawan kata again - as TBH, these are the creators of the SD forms that we now have in TKD! Personally, i thibnk they should work with what they got and simply PAY Simon to improve things

If they, and kata bunkai pioneers like Rick Clark and Iain Abernethy are right, the problem isn't with the forms themselves, but with the camouflage that was thrown over the interpretation of the pattern movements by Anko Itosu

Indeed.. the guys at the top just need to admit that and get on with doing their best for the TKD Students

My instructor says his instructer says that originally sparring was intended to practice kicks aand forms were more for upper body practice. Of course, sparring was different back then...

I agree to a point, as Kicks were practiced through other means, but also...
See: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_GettingYourKicksfromTaekwonDoPatterns.html
And : http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_Pattern_Apps.html (last paragraph)

My take on this: Historically, Taekkyun did not utilize forms, being a dynamic combat-oriented art.

Taek-Kyun has next to nothing to do with TKD except its anme sake and the fact they kicked!

In fact, forms are a relatively recent invention.

Don't think so, they existed pre-Karate in both Okinawa and China!

It would stand to reason that Taekwondo, originally heavily influenced by Japanese styles after the Occupation, would incorporate the Japanese-style forms, especially since their native styles didn't use them.
Only later, when Korean styles were allowed to grow independent of outside intervention, would native Korean techniques (i.e. advanced kicking) be incorporated into forms designed for and by Koreans.

I agree.. but is a Korean take on things the best thing for SD orientated forms.. I dont think so!

And since forms should be a holistic representation of the culture that spawned them, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that modern Korean forms should incorporate the advanced kicking of the culture that designed them.

Whilst in essense I agree with this post, the OP wasnt about culture, it was about SD forms.. an in that sense, very few kicks would be incorporated above waist height for colour belts....hmmm, sounds like the Ch'ang on forms lol

Stuart

 

[SJON]

Hello.

I've just got back from China. I see I've missed some interesting discussion. I hope to get back into the swing of things over the next few days, and this looks like a good place to start.

Cheers,

Simon