Questioning the efficacy of Kata

[Drose427]

Non resistance as in a colapso tap out monkey.

If I single leg someone I am running them across the room.

As a wrestler, thats more of a lack of finishing technique than resistance

Youll see all these means of finishing the single leg in actual matches (with the double leg and trip being the most common)

If I get the single, and have proper technique in finishing, I dont have to run someone across the room

Hell, in wrestling you cant, you risk giving up the position by going out of bounds

 

[Drose427]

Apparently non contact sparring is just like full contact without the contact.

Does anyone here actually do non contact sparring?

Theres always this assumption that TMA's only do it,

but I've been all over appalachia and never seen a single one that doesnt do at least medium contact (around 40%), whereas quite a few do do harder

edit: Im not saying NOBODY in the world does it, but its not that common and since it pops up so much here I was wondering if another poster told you they did

 

[Tez3]

Does anyone here actually do non contact sparring?

Theres always this assumption that TMA's only do it,

but I've been all over appalachia and never seen a single one that doesnt do at least medium contact (around 40%), whereas quite a few do do harder

edit: Im not saying NOBODY in the world does it, but its not that common and since it pops up so much here I was wondering if another poster told you they did

I've never met anyone who did non contact sparring not even with children, there's always contact.

 

[Drose427]

I've never met anyone who did non contact sparring not even with children, there's always contact.

Same here in the states

Ive felt bad some nights from having to tell kiddies to suck it up cause they were hurt instead of injured..

 

[Koshiki]

Yeah, I realize I've only been in the arts for fifteen years, but I've never met a school, even the ones I find to be more about exercise, or the ones that are more art and less martial, who does "no contact" sparring. I've seen light contact, where the aim is to thump rather than injure, but I didn't realize no contact was a thing...

As far as resistance goes, I think of it on a scale, with about seven steps:
1. Facilitation - The opponent reacts intentionally in the desired way. Only for isolated demonstration purposes, NEVER for actual training. Unfortunately, difficult to avoid.
2. Accommodation - The opponent allows themself to be manipulated however is desired, but does not in any way assist or resist. Useful when first practicing a technique, but not for long-term training.
3. Resistance - The opponent attempts to remain as they were, but initiates no actions of their own volition. First test of technique learned with accommodation. Useful for long term training, allows detailed technical study of what is possible, but not what is feasible.
4. Neutralization - The opponent attempts to escape, avoid, deflect, or stop the desired effect. Good test of practicality of technique. Essential for long-term training.
5. Counteraction - The opponent not only attempts to neutralize but also initiates technique of their own. Develops adaptability and increased awareness of feasibility and practicality. The essential standard for long-term training. This is basically sparring, but not a full-fledged, competition levels of contact.
6. Aggression - The opponent counteracts but with full intent to injure or subdue, either in unavoidable real world combat or a close simulation.. The best reality check, but inherently dangerous. Essential for serious long-term training, but to be used extremely sparingly and only among experienced practitioners. This is full-contact, full-force sparring, essentially.
7. Assault - (This one is illegal, and for good reason.) The opponent utilizes full aggression, but is beyond normal human mental states, whether due to drug use or extreme emotional or neurological states. Only in unavoidable real world combat. Never for training, due to extreme danger, impracticality, and issues of morality.

No contact isn't even on this spectrum. It's its own beast, and I'm not certain why anyone would do it.

I really don't understand the "is kata useful" question that comes up so much. Kata is nothing but a way to remember a whole ton of two-person drills, as well as a platform to spur innovation into new drills, all of which should then be incorporated into your sparring. I assume we're all a fan of two person drills, and I further assume we all are fans of practicing those two person drills alone, when we really want to perfect them, or have no partner at the moment. I don't understand how a Mnemonic pattern for remembering those drills becomes such a source of contention for some people...

People focus on the actual, lengthy, one-person dance part of the kata, and forget that actually doing that dance should be a fundamental, but otherwise small part of your training. Analysis and application should, in my understanding, be where the vast majority of your kata training time is spent.

If you're art is kata-based, then take what you learn from kata, and experiment with it, test it, experiment, test, refine, abandon, or assimilate as needed, at varying points of resistance along the spectrum from full cooperation to full opposition, every level short of all-out assault has it's place in true training.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Same here in the states

Ive felt bad some nights from having to tell kiddies to suck it up cause they were hurt instead of injured..

We do light contact with low ranks, regardless of age. As they progress, the contact can ramp


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

 

[O Saru]

Joplin, Missouri

 

[drop bear]

Does anyone here actually do non contact sparring?

Theres always this assumption that TMA's only do it,

but I've been all over appalachia and never seen a single one that doesnt do at least medium contact (around 40%), whereas quite a few do do harder

edit: Im not saying NOBODY in the world does it, but its not that common and since it pops up so much here I was wondering if another poster told you they did

Misconceptions about non-contact sparring. | MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

 

[drop bear]

Joplin, Missouri

Yeah well if I am ever halfway across the world I will pop in.

 

[drop bear]

As a wrestler, thats more of a lack of finishing technique than resistance

Youll see all these means of finishing the single leg in actual matches (with the double leg and trip being the most common)

If I get the single, and have proper technique in finishing, I dont have to run someone across the room

Hell, in wrestling you cant, you risk giving up the position by going out of bounds

Mma worse comes to worse you just ping them against a wall.

 

[Tez3]

Misconceptions about non-contact sparring. | MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

Not sure why you'd repost something that you didn't understand the first time round.

 

[drop bear]

Not sure why you'd repost something that you didn't understand the first time round.

No people just say I don't understand. To try to make themselves sound mysterious.

 

[Tez3]

No people just say I don't understand. To try to make themselves sound mysterious.

No, they are saying you don't understand because you demonstrate by your answers that you don't. The people posting do so to explain things not to 'sound mysterious', of course if it sounds mysterious to you then you don't understand it do you? The fact you are reposting shows too that you don't understand it.

 

[drop bear]

No, they are saying you don't understand because you demonstrate by your answers that you don't. The people posting do so to explain things not to 'sound mysterious', of course if it sounds mysterious to you then you don't understand it do you? The fact you are reposting shows too that you don't understand it.

No there is a disagreement not a miscommunication. I understand fine.

And if you understood context.(and this is the difference I will explain why you don't understand) it was posted in direct response to a question who does non contact sparring.

So who does non contact sparring?

The guy advocating its benefits on this forum.

I think you even posted on that thread.

So what I don't understand is why you posted this.

I've never met anyone who did non contact sparring not even with children, there's always contact.

Because you obviously know someone who does non contact sparring.

 

[Tez3]

No there is a disagreement not a miscommunication. I understand fine.

And if you understood context.(and this is the difference I will explain why you don't understand) it was posted in direct response to a question who does non contact sparring.

So who does non contact sparring?

The guy advocating its benefits on this forum.

I think you even posted on that thread.

So what I don't understand is why you posted this.



Because you obviously know someone who does non contact sparring.

Thing is, when in a hole stop digging.

 

[drop bear]

Thing is, when in a hole stop digging.

But when you are going through hell keep going.

 

[Tez3]

But when you are going through hell keep going.

This is a hell then of your own making because you refuse to accept anything from a so called TMA says and believe firmly that it's your way or it's rubbish. An open mind would take you out of this hell immediately.

 

[Zero]

Apparently non contact sparring is just like full contact without the contact.

Many others have commented since this post of yours. I was not sure if you were posing this as a question, in that you are not sure, or if you were asserting this as your view?

I guess it is possible to have completely non-contact "sparring" as a kind of drill or exercise. I have never seen it. Kind of like "shadow sparring"? Have come across much "light" contact with youngsters or juniors but normally with more experience comes more control and ability (and familiarity with taking and deflecting and avoiding harder hits) and so the contact ratchets up.

My view is non-contact, or even light contact (while of great value for starting off or for safely trying/experimenting with some strikes or takedowns unfamiliar with) is a world apart from contact sparring. For a start and with karate/kickboxing as an example. Sport karate tournaments (ie, light contact points awarded) do allow one to use skills and to hone great timing and speed but in my experience, if entirely focused on, it leads to very bad fighting technique and strategy for when faced with full contact tournament or a "gloves-off" street fight or possibly even SD situation.

I have always preferred full contact tournaments but have gone into clicker/sport tournaments for enjoyment. I have experienced and seen a hell of a lot of techniques thrown without adequate guard (particularly head cover) to counters employed and the norm is by far to throw strikes with less damage effect for getting your point in. Time and again I have been hit with punches to torso with my own head strike connecting split seconds after. I have seen so many fighters with great technical skill bouncing around on their feet and edging in slowly to duck in and out with a reverse torso punch and this resembles nothing of any of the "real" bad intention fights I have been in or witnessed. It also hardly resembles full contact tournaments. And it's the last kind of go-to mind set I would want if jumped on the street or otherwise in an SD situation.

Train hard, fight hard...stay hard(?) : )
Os

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Does anyone here actually do non contact sparring?

Theres always this assumption that TMA's only do it,

but I've been all over appalachia and never seen a single one that doesnt do at least medium contact (around 40%), whereas quite a few do do harder

edit: Im not saying NOBODY in the world does it, but its not that common and since it pops up so much here I was wondering if another poster told you they did

I believe that @RTKDCMB is an advocate of non-contact sparring. I'm not sure if anyone else here does it. I don't think it's all that common.

 

[drop bear]

This is a hell then of your own making because you refuse to accept anything from a so called TMA says and believe firmly that it's your way or it's rubbish. An open mind would take you out of this hell immediately.

Rubbish. I don't accept dogma or heresay from any system. I accept evidence from any system. That is an open mind.

You don't understand.