OP
RyuShiKan
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- Thread Starter
- #41
They would practice all the kata they know every class.
Still no answer to my questions I see.
They would practice all the kata they know every class.
Still no answer to my questions I see.
OP
SRyuFighter
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- Thread Starter
- #42
I live in West Virginia...very far from Sensei Takae's. We go there a few times a year. He also comes to our dojo once or twice a year. And yes we do practice the Pinan kata.
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Shuri-te
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- Thread Starter
- #43
Fellow posters and readers of the Martialtalk karate thread.
Last week I severely injured my shoulder, and need it healthy for a number of upcoming seminars I am attending as well as a demo I and my students are giving to a master who is visiting my dojo. So instead of training, I am resting it and being on the Internet is the thing I find most relaxing.
BTW - The injury came from one of my shodans doing a movement from the opening of Seipei, against a grab/strike attack from me. In the third/fourth step we initiate a shoulder lock (sinking into shikodachi) and continue with a takedown while stepping forward, that looks like a variation of Shionage found in Aikido and JiuJitsu.
My shodan is a pretty strong guy and was a bit too enthusiastic the result being an unusable left arm and lots of pain when I lift it, despite the motrin, ice and heat. I find at my age (late forties) my right shoulder always has a nagging pain, probably too much baseball, football and basketball in my youth. Now I expect to have symmetrical discomfort between the two for a number of years. This injury is a bummer. So a I have a word of caution. When you get older, take care of your shoulders, they take forever to heal.
In any event, I appreciate your patience as I navigate the norms of this friendly forum. An unnamed poster has appeared to have taken issue with some things that I have asked, and seems to have some morbid curiosity with my "style" and my training history. So while I recuperate, I will slog on.
So, again my apologies to all you readers/contributors while said unnamed poster and I dance around the issues raised. I expect that we can have more fruitful exchanges in the future. Thanks to Disco, Mike Clarke, Lilisifu, Chufeng, SryuFighter, GojuBujin for your helpful responses.
Last week I severely injured my shoulder, and need it healthy for a number of upcoming seminars I am attending as well as a demo I and my students are giving to a master who is visiting my dojo. So instead of training, I am resting it and being on the Internet is the thing I find most relaxing.
BTW - The injury came from one of my shodans doing a movement from the opening of Seipei, against a grab/strike attack from me. In the third/fourth step we initiate a shoulder lock (sinking into shikodachi) and continue with a takedown while stepping forward, that looks like a variation of Shionage found in Aikido and JiuJitsu.
My shodan is a pretty strong guy and was a bit too enthusiastic the result being an unusable left arm and lots of pain when I lift it, despite the motrin, ice and heat. I find at my age (late forties) my right shoulder always has a nagging pain, probably too much baseball, football and basketball in my youth. Now I expect to have symmetrical discomfort between the two for a number of years. This injury is a bummer. So a I have a word of caution. When you get older, take care of your shoulders, they take forever to heal.
In any event, I appreciate your patience as I navigate the norms of this friendly forum. An unnamed poster has appeared to have taken issue with some things that I have asked, and seems to have some morbid curiosity with my "style" and my training history. So while I recuperate, I will slog on.
So, again my apologies to all you readers/contributors while said unnamed poster and I dance around the issues raised. I expect that we can have more fruitful exchanges in the future. Thanks to Disco, Mike Clarke, Lilisifu, Chufeng, SryuFighter, GojuBujin for your helpful responses.
OP
RyuShiKan
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- Thread Starter
- #44
Gee doesnt this sound like someone else we know that when asked REPEATEDLY to supply information dances around and tells us about his sick wife, his work problems etc, etc but never answers the question.
Well the 4 questions you just asked have been answered.
And yet again I ask:
From whom and what organization did you receive your 5th dan and shihan certificates?
What is the name of the art and style you practice?
As long as the topic is on kata which kata do you practice?
OP
Shuri-te
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- Thread Starter
- #45
RyuShiKan,
You have taken an interesting approach to my question. I have asked participants in this forum about norms of kata practice in their dojos, trying to better understand numbers of repetitions of kata practiced today in kata-oriented dojos.
There are a variety of options for martialtalk readers. They can choose to:
1. Ignore the question
2. Answer the question
3. Not answer the question using an assortment of non-answers, including evasions, further questions, misrepresentations of what has been said, demands for details of training history and false accusations of who I really am.
From the typical readers, I speculate an abundance of number 1. And several helpful posters took option 2, for which I am thankful.
You alone have chosen option 3. Despite your many posts, and your claims that you have answered my initial question, you have yet to provide the answer.
Shall we try this one more time?
We must return to the initial posting to see that you don't misread the question yet again, because after a dozen of your postings, you still have not yet managed to get it quite right. But practice makes perfect, so here we go.
The initial post said the following.
What would be a rough estimate of the number of total repetitions for all kata, that this student would practice in the dojo in a typical month.
Your post of 11:54 yesterday was a response to a rephrased but not redefined question, where I said, "How many kata total, would a student practice in this average month." Your response: "all that he knows. At least 12 empty hand and probably 5 or more kobudo kata". When counting total repetitions for all kata practiced, this number would appear to translate into perhaps 20 for a month, where your student trains for 40-50 hours. It seemed an odd answer, but I am always happy with progress. Maybe I misjudged you. Maybe you would answer the question after all.
So I requested clarification, and indeed I give you credit for progress. You have now said:
"They would practice all the kata they know every class."
Now that is certainly an improvement, but I am not sure we are ready to close the book on this just yet. I would be grateful if you would reread the initial question in this post. It states what would be the "total repetitions for all kata".
Just so we are on the same page, let's imagine a green belt in a Shorin Ryu system had learned all the Pinan and Naichanchi kata. And let's imagine this student practices all the kata they know every class. Now follow me here because this might be confusing. If this student practiced each kata he knows one repetition, per class, this would be a total of 8 repetitions. If this student practiced each kata he knows twice each, it would total 16 repetitions per class. Or perhaps the student might be focusing on one kata more than the others. Let's say this student practiced Pinan Godan 10 times and all the others once. That would be a total of 17 repetitions per class. These numbers would be expected to vary from class to class, which is why I asked for a cumulative amount over an "average" month.
In your dojo, your "average" student practices 40-50 hours per month. In order to tally up the total one would need to know how many classes that 40-50 hours in the dojo translates into. We will need your help here. But let me give you an example to work from. Let's say the student practices each of their kata one repetition every class and classes are two hours each. Now a 45 hour month would translate into approx 22 classes, and about 400 kata practiced. However, if all classes were 90 minutes, again with one repetition per kata, per class, then the student would practice over 500 kata. Let's review. Calculate the total number of repetitions per class, on average, (not the total number of kata known, but actual repetitions, all combined), multiply by the number of classes per month, and voila, you wind up with a number (or perhaps a range.) You see how this works.
We have made slow but steady progress. It took you 12 posts to actually provide an answer, but an incorrect one where you listed 20 per month. In your second answer, you have indeed made a clarification, but one that is not helpful at all. Do you think you can get this right on the next post?
Can you provide the "number of total repetitions for all kata" that was indicated on the first post on this thread. It would be really helpful if you would provide an answer with digits in it. (characters 1-0 on the keyboard). No letters are required.
And by the way, I would really appreciate if you could provide a schedule of classes at your dojo.
Just so you don't think this is one sided.
I teach Monday, Wednesday, 6:00 to 9:00, Saturday, 12:30 -2:00, and a senior student teaches Friday 6:30 to 8:00.
And here's a tidbit. I promoted to Shodan in 1980.
Thanks.
You have taken an interesting approach to my question. I have asked participants in this forum about norms of kata practice in their dojos, trying to better understand numbers of repetitions of kata practiced today in kata-oriented dojos.
There are a variety of options for martialtalk readers. They can choose to:
1. Ignore the question
2. Answer the question
3. Not answer the question using an assortment of non-answers, including evasions, further questions, misrepresentations of what has been said, demands for details of training history and false accusations of who I really am.
From the typical readers, I speculate an abundance of number 1. And several helpful posters took option 2, for which I am thankful.
You alone have chosen option 3. Despite your many posts, and your claims that you have answered my initial question, you have yet to provide the answer.
Shall we try this one more time?
We must return to the initial posting to see that you don't misread the question yet again, because after a dozen of your postings, you still have not yet managed to get it quite right. But practice makes perfect, so here we go.
The initial post said the following.
What would be a rough estimate of the number of total repetitions for all kata, that this student would practice in the dojo in a typical month.
Your post of 11:54 yesterday was a response to a rephrased but not redefined question, where I said, "How many kata total, would a student practice in this average month." Your response: "all that he knows. At least 12 empty hand and probably 5 or more kobudo kata". When counting total repetitions for all kata practiced, this number would appear to translate into perhaps 20 for a month, where your student trains for 40-50 hours. It seemed an odd answer, but I am always happy with progress. Maybe I misjudged you. Maybe you would answer the question after all.
So I requested clarification, and indeed I give you credit for progress. You have now said:
"They would practice all the kata they know every class."
Now that is certainly an improvement, but I am not sure we are ready to close the book on this just yet. I would be grateful if you would reread the initial question in this post. It states what would be the "total repetitions for all kata".
Just so we are on the same page, let's imagine a green belt in a Shorin Ryu system had learned all the Pinan and Naichanchi kata. And let's imagine this student practices all the kata they know every class. Now follow me here because this might be confusing. If this student practiced each kata he knows one repetition, per class, this would be a total of 8 repetitions. If this student practiced each kata he knows twice each, it would total 16 repetitions per class. Or perhaps the student might be focusing on one kata more than the others. Let's say this student practiced Pinan Godan 10 times and all the others once. That would be a total of 17 repetitions per class. These numbers would be expected to vary from class to class, which is why I asked for a cumulative amount over an "average" month.
In your dojo, your "average" student practices 40-50 hours per month. In order to tally up the total one would need to know how many classes that 40-50 hours in the dojo translates into. We will need your help here. But let me give you an example to work from. Let's say the student practices each of their kata one repetition every class and classes are two hours each. Now a 45 hour month would translate into approx 22 classes, and about 400 kata practiced. However, if all classes were 90 minutes, again with one repetition per kata, per class, then the student would practice over 500 kata. Let's review. Calculate the total number of repetitions per class, on average, (not the total number of kata known, but actual repetitions, all combined), multiply by the number of classes per month, and voila, you wind up with a number (or perhaps a range.) You see how this works.
We have made slow but steady progress. It took you 12 posts to actually provide an answer, but an incorrect one where you listed 20 per month. In your second answer, you have indeed made a clarification, but one that is not helpful at all. Do you think you can get this right on the next post?
Can you provide the "number of total repetitions for all kata" that was indicated on the first post on this thread. It would be really helpful if you would provide an answer with digits in it. (characters 1-0 on the keyboard). No letters are required.
And by the way, I would really appreciate if you could provide a schedule of classes at your dojo.
Just so you don't think this is one sided.
I teach Monday, Wednesday, 6:00 to 9:00, Saturday, 12:30 -2:00, and a senior student teaches Friday 6:30 to 8:00.
And here's a tidbit. I promoted to Shodan in 1980.
Thanks.
OP
RyuShiKan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #46
Yet more non-answers.
Where did you learn how to answer a direct question???? From an Iraqi weapons official it would seem .
I have answered the 4 questions you asked and very directly.
Your answers have yet to be forth coming so step up to the plate.
And yet again I ask:
From whom and what organization did you receive your 5th dan and shihan certificates?
What is the name of the art and style you practice?
As long as the topic is on kata which kata do you practice?
OP
SRyuFighter
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- Thread Starter
- #47
I have an idea. Why don't you all ask one question at a time. Then answer it and submit another question. Then we can all move on from this.
OP
RyuShiKan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #48
Actually Shurite is the one that suggested if answered his questions, which I have, then he would answer mine, which he has yet to do after being asked repeatedly.
In typical Shurite and his alter ego Zhao Dei Wei fashion he has side stepped the questions and offered information about his personal problems.
The questions I am asking never seem to bother anyone on this forum except Shurite and his alter ego Zhao Dei Wei.
Does anyone else find that odd?
And yet again I ask:
From whom and what organization did you receive your 5th dan and shihan certificates?
What is the name of the art and style you practice?
As long as the topic is on kata which kata do you practice?
In typical Shurite and his alter ego Zhao Dei Wei fashion he has side stepped the questions and offered information about his personal problems.
The questions I am asking never seem to bother anyone on this forum except Shurite and his alter ego Zhao Dei Wei.
Does anyone else find that odd?
And yet again I ask:
From whom and what organization did you receive your 5th dan and shihan certificates?
What is the name of the art and style you practice?
As long as the topic is on kata which kata do you practice?
OP
Shuri-te
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #49
SRyuFighter,
You are a diplomat at heart, and I appreciate the effort, but I am having a bit too much fun here. Sorry for the long post that follows.
I hope that those that have felt the sting of RyuShiKan's keyboard take an opportunity to read it, if he hasn't hounded them off the forum. They might just get a good chuckle.
You are a diplomat at heart, and I appreciate the effort, but I am having a bit too much fun here. Sorry for the long post that follows.
I hope that those that have felt the sting of RyuShiKan's keyboard take an opportunity to read it, if he hasn't hounded them off the forum. They might just get a good chuckle.
OP
Shuri-te
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #50
RyuShiKan,
You know I took a bit of a chance posting that last one. I thought you just might call my bluff and actually answer, making me look like a boor and you as the poor victim. But deep down, I was pretty confident you would do no such thing.
How about a different tack. The night is young and we can still dance further.
So once more into the breach dear friend.
Your initial non-answer post to this thread indicated you would send a prospective student off to another dojo if they told you they were interested in studying karate for self defense only and not for moral or spiritual development. This despite the obvious possibility that this hypothetical student could be of exemplary moral character.
Now I really dont expect much in the way of follow up from you, but just in case I have completely misjudged you, I want to try this one last chance to prove I am wrong about you, that you really are a cooperative sharing person.
So I will try another hypothetical situation, one where you might not chose to send the guy packing, pretty much sight unseen.
You have a prospective student at your dojo.
Now lets say this student has told you he knows that the study of karate is good for moral and spiritual development and this is an important goal for his desire to train, almost as important as self defense. He has read your dojo kun and has told you that these principles are very important to him and he believes that training in your dojo will help him to achieve those goals. He tells you he really likes to work hard. Finally, your initial impression is that he seems to be of good character. He is mannerly, courteous and deferential, a gentleman in every way. There doesnt appear to be a hint of the notion that he is coming to you to learn how to hurt other people, and he does not appear to have an attitude that might result in increased risk to other students in your dojo. Just a potential model student.
But before signing up, he has only two things he wants to discuss with you. The first is your requirement of training commitment and the second is a simple question about one aspect of the art you teach.
He tells you his schedule only permits him to be in the dojo 6 hours each week. He works full time at a job that requires up to 50 hours per week, has a long commute to work and your dojo, and has a busy family life with children. And he also is a part time student working finishing up a college degree that has eluded him for all too long. Each week, he can make it to the dojo two or three times, but that is all. That might translate into 2 hours three times per week or some other combination. But he tells you he has great consistency in everything he does. He will absolutely be there every week, allowing a maximum 2 weeks per year for illness and personal emergencies. So he has a commitment of 6 hours, 50 weeks per year. He plans on training with you for at least four years.
The first thing he needs to know is if his commitment to 300 hours in the dojo per year meets your minimum requirement. If you tell him it doesnt then that is the end of it and he thanks you for your time and leaves.
However, if you agree that his 300 hours per year in the dojo would be sufficient, he has one question for you, but first needs to give you a little background.
He tells you that he has a solid background in the art having trained many years in several Okinawan systems and knows that kata is an important element of training. Since his primary goal is to learn self-defense, and not sport, he wants to continue to study Okinawan karate, rather than at the many Japanese karate alternatives in your area.
He believes there is great value in the practice of kata, especially from a moral and spiritual development perspective.
After having said all that, this prospective student asks you a simple question. In his 25 hours per month in the dojo, how many total repetitions of kata, on average, would be the norm that he would practice. He is about to commit to an investment of over 1000 hours of his life to hard work in your dojo, and wants to know if he by choosing your dojo, he will be headed in the right direction.
You have several choices.
Option 1 - You could tell him a lie or exaggeration deliberately inflating the number because you know that is what he wants to hear. But that would not be in character with your dojo kun, so lets make the assumption that is not an option.
Option 2 - You could give him an honest answer. Perhaps you may have never really considered the issue before, so you have to think a bit. After a minute or two you figure out an estimated range. (e.g. some months as few as xx and some months as many as yy.) and share it with him. This could include a qualification that there are many factors that effect the degree of variation from month-to-month such as which classes he attends, etc.
Or perhaps you might have a ready answer. Maybe you have grappled with the ever-present challenge of how to include enough regular kata practice when there is so much else to do in the way of drilling, application, conditioning, kumite, kobudo, and whatever else makes up your curriculum.
Option 3 - You can choose not to give him an answer. This can come in the form of a blanket refusal. Or it could take the form of a remarkable variety of non-answers which include evasions, further questions, misrepresentations, accusations, obfuscations and personal attacks.
For instance, you could begin with the basic evasion. Perhaps an attempt to convince him that this number is not meaningful is a good start. Try telling him that it is quality not quantity that is important. You could also tell him that it would be too hard a number to calculate, or varies so much from month to month that it would be a meaningless number.
Then there is the handy "question answer". For example, you might reply Why do you want to know? or What is this morbid curiosity you have with this issue? or perhaps the vague pass Is this for some research you are doing?
And there are plenty of variations to consider when using the question answer. You can demand that this person provide assorted information about himself such as who he trained with, how long it took him to get to Shodan, and the name of the person who promoted him to his current rank.
Moving up the ladder, the next trusty option is to misrepresent what he has told you. This is easily done. Take something out of context, or insist he said something he hadnt. This strategy is rich with potential. Perhaps he mentioned the term Shuri-te in another context, opening the way for you to state he is claiming rank in it. Or perhaps he said "I am fortunate to have a small dojo... I am not a martial arts professional." That would give you the opportunity to respond "You say you are not a martial arts professional...So are we to conclude you dont have a dojo?"
Now just imagine that this person felt, for some completely unfounded reason that there just might be some value in anonymity. (Perhaps he had a totally bizarre hunch that you just might be a person who might take issue with anything he might say about himself. Who knows?) Then it might be a good opportunity to use the tried and true out-of-left-field accusation strategy to truly bewilder him.
Heres one way it can work. Just accuse him of being someone he isnt with a statement like. Something you just did reminds me of something somebody else once did, ergo, you must be him. (This could be along the lines of say, a word count by someone falsely claiming rank in Uechi Ryu. Or better yet, you can make the connection that since you had recommended Bishop's standard text to this Uechi Ryu masquarader, and your prospective student quoted from that text, well then of course this would be conclusive proof they are one and the same) Once this accusation is launched they key thing is to nurture it. It is best to repeat it like a mantra. It is well know in psychology, that if you say something (or perhaps type it) over and over, you begin to believe it regardless of its merits.
If this guy is still resistant, it might be time to roll out possibly the most effective option: obfuscation. Bear with me as I describe this convoluted, but ingenious approach. It starts as a follow-up to one of your earlier responses. (it must be a non-answer question) Now it doesnt have to be the first non-answer question such as why do you care. It could very well be a later question, or better yet, a barrage of questions really can get the job done. Here are a number of good candidates: "What is your style?" "Who awarded your rank? "What kata do you practice?" "When did you earn your Shodan?" Now the lynchpin. To make this work you simply refuse to answer the persons initial question until your follow-up question is answered.
If he declines, and asks why you wont answer his simple question regarding kata repetition, without him having to reveal his background, you now have an opening to get him totally bewildered. You of course know that although it was you who began the whole process of the non-answer response, you can now act as if it were really you who asked the first question that went unanswered. Ergo, he, not you, is at fault for being so uncooperative. An important component of this approach is the repeated claim that you have answered his question, even though all of your answers are just cleverly crafted non-answers. That ensures that you look like you are doing everything possible to answer his question while he refrains from not answering yours.
But it takes a careful effort to fully exploit the full obfuscation strategy. To take it to the final step, the best tactic is to blame this person for requiring you to answer a question when he has avoided answering yours. And if you phrase it just right, you can sound like a poor victim of his determined pettiness and stubbornness. The brilliance of this approach is in its byzantine complexity. Who can ever really figure out who asked what first. Kind of like two kids each saying the other started it.
If all else fails, you just may have to resort to the personal attack strategy. When you find that other methods arent getting this guy to give in, a generous dose of derision can sometimes work wonders. You can ask him if he has the stones and integrity to back up something he said or claims, all the while you repeat your mantra that he is not really who he says he is, and wont answer your questions about his personal training. Again, the key is to paint yourself as the victim of his deliberate unfairness. Anyone watching might wonder why this guy is being so darn mean to you.
Ah, the elegant majesty of the well-crafted twisting of anothers words. The keyboard is certainly mightier than the katana.
Shall we choose option 2. Will you answer the question of the first post? What do you have to lose?
A number, a number, my background for a number.
Or shall we dance on? I got some great reggae going, a cold Guinness. The night is young, my shoulder resting, and my fingers nimble.
btw- I mostly practice kata from the families of Pinan, Bassai, Kusanku and Chinto, and teach a subset of those. But I have a passing familiarity with quite a few more.
How about that dojo schedule of yours? I am sure you could whip it off in just a few moments.
You know I took a bit of a chance posting that last one. I thought you just might call my bluff and actually answer, making me look like a boor and you as the poor victim. But deep down, I was pretty confident you would do no such thing.
How about a different tack. The night is young and we can still dance further.
So once more into the breach dear friend.
Your initial non-answer post to this thread indicated you would send a prospective student off to another dojo if they told you they were interested in studying karate for self defense only and not for moral or spiritual development. This despite the obvious possibility that this hypothetical student could be of exemplary moral character.
Now I really dont expect much in the way of follow up from you, but just in case I have completely misjudged you, I want to try this one last chance to prove I am wrong about you, that you really are a cooperative sharing person.
So I will try another hypothetical situation, one where you might not chose to send the guy packing, pretty much sight unseen.
You have a prospective student at your dojo.
Now lets say this student has told you he knows that the study of karate is good for moral and spiritual development and this is an important goal for his desire to train, almost as important as self defense. He has read your dojo kun and has told you that these principles are very important to him and he believes that training in your dojo will help him to achieve those goals. He tells you he really likes to work hard. Finally, your initial impression is that he seems to be of good character. He is mannerly, courteous and deferential, a gentleman in every way. There doesnt appear to be a hint of the notion that he is coming to you to learn how to hurt other people, and he does not appear to have an attitude that might result in increased risk to other students in your dojo. Just a potential model student.
But before signing up, he has only two things he wants to discuss with you. The first is your requirement of training commitment and the second is a simple question about one aspect of the art you teach.
He tells you his schedule only permits him to be in the dojo 6 hours each week. He works full time at a job that requires up to 50 hours per week, has a long commute to work and your dojo, and has a busy family life with children. And he also is a part time student working finishing up a college degree that has eluded him for all too long. Each week, he can make it to the dojo two or three times, but that is all. That might translate into 2 hours three times per week or some other combination. But he tells you he has great consistency in everything he does. He will absolutely be there every week, allowing a maximum 2 weeks per year for illness and personal emergencies. So he has a commitment of 6 hours, 50 weeks per year. He plans on training with you for at least four years.
The first thing he needs to know is if his commitment to 300 hours in the dojo per year meets your minimum requirement. If you tell him it doesnt then that is the end of it and he thanks you for your time and leaves.
However, if you agree that his 300 hours per year in the dojo would be sufficient, he has one question for you, but first needs to give you a little background.
He tells you that he has a solid background in the art having trained many years in several Okinawan systems and knows that kata is an important element of training. Since his primary goal is to learn self-defense, and not sport, he wants to continue to study Okinawan karate, rather than at the many Japanese karate alternatives in your area.
He believes there is great value in the practice of kata, especially from a moral and spiritual development perspective.
After having said all that, this prospective student asks you a simple question. In his 25 hours per month in the dojo, how many total repetitions of kata, on average, would be the norm that he would practice. He is about to commit to an investment of over 1000 hours of his life to hard work in your dojo, and wants to know if he by choosing your dojo, he will be headed in the right direction.
You have several choices.
Option 1 - You could tell him a lie or exaggeration deliberately inflating the number because you know that is what he wants to hear. But that would not be in character with your dojo kun, so lets make the assumption that is not an option.
Option 2 - You could give him an honest answer. Perhaps you may have never really considered the issue before, so you have to think a bit. After a minute or two you figure out an estimated range. (e.g. some months as few as xx and some months as many as yy.) and share it with him. This could include a qualification that there are many factors that effect the degree of variation from month-to-month such as which classes he attends, etc.
Or perhaps you might have a ready answer. Maybe you have grappled with the ever-present challenge of how to include enough regular kata practice when there is so much else to do in the way of drilling, application, conditioning, kumite, kobudo, and whatever else makes up your curriculum.
Option 3 - You can choose not to give him an answer. This can come in the form of a blanket refusal. Or it could take the form of a remarkable variety of non-answers which include evasions, further questions, misrepresentations, accusations, obfuscations and personal attacks.
For instance, you could begin with the basic evasion. Perhaps an attempt to convince him that this number is not meaningful is a good start. Try telling him that it is quality not quantity that is important. You could also tell him that it would be too hard a number to calculate, or varies so much from month to month that it would be a meaningless number.
Then there is the handy "question answer". For example, you might reply Why do you want to know? or What is this morbid curiosity you have with this issue? or perhaps the vague pass Is this for some research you are doing?
And there are plenty of variations to consider when using the question answer. You can demand that this person provide assorted information about himself such as who he trained with, how long it took him to get to Shodan, and the name of the person who promoted him to his current rank.
Moving up the ladder, the next trusty option is to misrepresent what he has told you. This is easily done. Take something out of context, or insist he said something he hadnt. This strategy is rich with potential. Perhaps he mentioned the term Shuri-te in another context, opening the way for you to state he is claiming rank in it. Or perhaps he said "I am fortunate to have a small dojo... I am not a martial arts professional." That would give you the opportunity to respond "You say you are not a martial arts professional...So are we to conclude you dont have a dojo?"
Now just imagine that this person felt, for some completely unfounded reason that there just might be some value in anonymity. (Perhaps he had a totally bizarre hunch that you just might be a person who might take issue with anything he might say about himself. Who knows?) Then it might be a good opportunity to use the tried and true out-of-left-field accusation strategy to truly bewilder him.
Heres one way it can work. Just accuse him of being someone he isnt with a statement like. Something you just did reminds me of something somebody else once did, ergo, you must be him. (This could be along the lines of say, a word count by someone falsely claiming rank in Uechi Ryu. Or better yet, you can make the connection that since you had recommended Bishop's standard text to this Uechi Ryu masquarader, and your prospective student quoted from that text, well then of course this would be conclusive proof they are one and the same) Once this accusation is launched they key thing is to nurture it. It is best to repeat it like a mantra. It is well know in psychology, that if you say something (or perhaps type it) over and over, you begin to believe it regardless of its merits.
If this guy is still resistant, it might be time to roll out possibly the most effective option: obfuscation. Bear with me as I describe this convoluted, but ingenious approach. It starts as a follow-up to one of your earlier responses. (it must be a non-answer question) Now it doesnt have to be the first non-answer question such as why do you care. It could very well be a later question, or better yet, a barrage of questions really can get the job done. Here are a number of good candidates: "What is your style?" "Who awarded your rank? "What kata do you practice?" "When did you earn your Shodan?" Now the lynchpin. To make this work you simply refuse to answer the persons initial question until your follow-up question is answered.
If he declines, and asks why you wont answer his simple question regarding kata repetition, without him having to reveal his background, you now have an opening to get him totally bewildered. You of course know that although it was you who began the whole process of the non-answer response, you can now act as if it were really you who asked the first question that went unanswered. Ergo, he, not you, is at fault for being so uncooperative. An important component of this approach is the repeated claim that you have answered his question, even though all of your answers are just cleverly crafted non-answers. That ensures that you look like you are doing everything possible to answer his question while he refrains from not answering yours.
But it takes a careful effort to fully exploit the full obfuscation strategy. To take it to the final step, the best tactic is to blame this person for requiring you to answer a question when he has avoided answering yours. And if you phrase it just right, you can sound like a poor victim of his determined pettiness and stubbornness. The brilliance of this approach is in its byzantine complexity. Who can ever really figure out who asked what first. Kind of like two kids each saying the other started it.
If all else fails, you just may have to resort to the personal attack strategy. When you find that other methods arent getting this guy to give in, a generous dose of derision can sometimes work wonders. You can ask him if he has the stones and integrity to back up something he said or claims, all the while you repeat your mantra that he is not really who he says he is, and wont answer your questions about his personal training. Again, the key is to paint yourself as the victim of his deliberate unfairness. Anyone watching might wonder why this guy is being so darn mean to you.
Ah, the elegant majesty of the well-crafted twisting of anothers words. The keyboard is certainly mightier than the katana.
Shall we choose option 2. Will you answer the question of the first post? What do you have to lose?
A number, a number, my background for a number.
Or shall we dance on? I got some great reggae going, a cold Guinness. The night is young, my shoulder resting, and my fingers nimble.
btw- I mostly practice kata from the families of Pinan, Bassai, Kusanku and Chinto, and teach a subset of those. But I have a passing familiarity with quite a few more.
How about that dojo schedule of yours? I am sure you could whip it off in just a few moments.
OP
RyuShiKan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #51
Well that was a long diatribe full of crap.....I see you still don't have the stones to answer the questions I asked .
And yet again I ask:
From whom and what organization did you receive your 5th dan and shihan certificates?
What is the name of the art and style you practice?
As long as the topic is on kata which kata do you practice?
And yet again I ask:
From whom and what organization did you receive your 5th dan and shihan certificates?
What is the name of the art and style you practice?
As long as the topic is on kata which kata do you practice?
OP
RyuShiKan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #53
I dont think you are being mean at all purposely deceptive yes but not mean.
Nobody sees me as a victim I am sure.
As for answering anymore of your questions I will keep you to your end of the bargain, that you insisted upon I might add, and wait for your answers to the questions I asked.
So you can answer the simple questions I have asked or you can keep playing your childish game.
OP
RyuShiKan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #54
Fair enough.
Can you tell me which part of these questions is considered impolite?
From whom and what organization did you receive your 5th dan and shihan certificates?
What is the name of the art and style you practice?
As long as the topic is on kata which kata do you practice?
We ask that everyone keep the tone of the discussion polite and friendly.
Much of this discussion could be taken offline to e-mail or PM as it seems to only interest two members.
-Arnisador
-MT Admin-
Much of this discussion could be taken offline to e-mail or PM as it seems to only interest two members.
-Arnisador
-MT Admin-
OP
RyuShiKan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #56
Yes I can see my tone was the only one that was out of line.........
I have emailed shurite twice asking for this information.
I have not received a reply.
Shuri-who? You don't need RyuShiKan's help in this regard.
He has answered your questions, why don't you return the courtesy?
Most of us are here to learn or exchange information, you seem to have left that idea behind, as soon as RyuShiKan, stepped up and answered your questions(or at least some of them), and now refer to this all as a dance.
If, as you seem to be, you are one of these guys who just get off on pushing other peoples buttons, might I suggest that you go and play these silly games on rec-martial arts forum.
Otherwise just answer the bloody question!
--Dave
OP
Mike Clarke
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #58
Shurite,
I was interested in your post regarding your injury.
In it you said you did it training in the bunkai from the kata Seipei.
This kata is from the Naha-te tradition is it not? And I was wondering how come you practise it if you train in Shuri-te?
The 'feeling' found in the kata from each of these traditions is very different, as are the fighting stategies encoded in the kata.
Do you train in many Naha-te kata then? And if so, where do they fit in with teaching the concepts put forward by the Shuri-te tradition? Off hand I can't think of an Okinawan Shuri-te school that teaches Naha-te kata?
It would be helpful to know which branch of Shuri-te you train in also, as that way I'll be able to get a better undestanding of your approach to karate.
Mike.
I was interested in your post regarding your injury.
In it you said you did it training in the bunkai from the kata Seipei.
This kata is from the Naha-te tradition is it not? And I was wondering how come you practise it if you train in Shuri-te?
The 'feeling' found in the kata from each of these traditions is very different, as are the fighting stategies encoded in the kata.
Do you train in many Naha-te kata then? And if so, where do they fit in with teaching the concepts put forward by the Shuri-te tradition? Off hand I can't think of an Okinawan Shuri-te school that teaches Naha-te kata?
It would be helpful to know which branch of Shuri-te you train in also, as that way I'll be able to get a better undestanding of your approach to karate.
Mike.
OP
Shuri-te
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #59
RyuShiKan,
On my post of 11:14 on 2/27, I stated the following:
You have made 12 posts since then, and despite your many protestations otherwise, you have not fulfilled the terms of the offer.
I was remiss in my original offer, and for that you have my apologies. It should have read:
You see, I did not clearly say that any old answer would suffice. I actually required a good faith answer. (What a concept) And I am sorry to inform you that your answer "all of them" did not meet the bar. I specifically requested a number, and you have specifically chosen not to provide one. So this offer is hereby withdrawn.
Here is a question for you. Have you ever once experienced even the slightest hint of cognitive dissonance, when you consider your whole approach to this thread, in light of the dojo kun you require your students to buy into before studying with you. I am specifically referring to the following three statements.
-Work very hard to perfect or complete human character
-Protect the way of honesty or sincerity
-Value or respect etiquette or manners
After reading your many posts to this thread (and others where you have browbeaten other posters), I can only imagine that the dojo kun must be for your students only, or perhaps it applies to you in the dojo only. And this harkens back to an earlier question I had for you. Just how do you teach these elements in you dojo. Some lead by example.
I guess you may just be one of those remarkable people that can check your "etiquette, manners, honesty and sincerity" when you leave the dojo and not worry yourself about the need to "perfect the human character" until you return. There are some people that can turn manners, honesty, etiquette and sincerity, off and on like a light switch. It as my experience that those that truly strive to be of good character strive to be far more consistent. Blind repetitions of dojo kun, doesn't make one of good character.
The old masters thought that the endless repetition of kata was something that helped develop one's character. Maybe you need to up the reps in you class my friend.
RyuShiKan, I take fundamental issue with your earlier post that when it comes to kata it is quality not quantity. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I too am entitled to tell you that you may be very much mistaken. The key, you see, is quality AND quantity. You do every repetition to the best of your ability, and you do many, many, many repetitions. You and your students just might be surprised at the benefits.
Regarding what I teach, it is a blend of the many arts I have been exposed to over my 30 years in the arts. One current term that might approximate what I teach is MMA. But many MMA systems tend not have a foundation of kata whereas my system is completely kata-based.
Kata, by the way, as practiced by a variety of karateka in a branch of Okinawan karate that has been referred to as "Shuri-te" by a number of distinguished authorities, who have written about the art after the term came into use. And RyuShiKan, you should be well aware, as well-versed as you are in the history of the art, that the written historical record regarding karate, prior to the coining of the term Shuri-te, is woefully deficient. Therefore, when more modern historians chose to use the term Shuri-te, it became a commonly used way to describe a branch of the art.
Let's tally up the record. You requested I provide you some information and I have obliged. I have given you information about the kata I practice, the year I was promoted to Shodan, and the fact that what I teach cannot be described as a "style", because what I teach differs significantly from every system I have been exposed to. I also gave you the hours that my dojo is in session.
I asked you for a number, you have not provided one. And you have ignored my request for your dojo schedule.
Regarding the "style" that I was awarded my rank in, and the master that promoted me, I choose to remain blissfully anonymous.
RyuShiKan, this has been great fun. But it might be a good time to move on. What are your thoughts?
On my post of 11:14 on 2/27, I stated the following:
You have made 12 posts since then, and despite your many protestations otherwise, you have not fulfilled the terms of the offer.
I was remiss in my original offer, and for that you have my apologies. It should have read:
You see, I did not clearly say that any old answer would suffice. I actually required a good faith answer. (What a concept
) And I am sorry to inform you that your answer "all of them" did not meet the bar. I specifically requested a number, and you have specifically chosen not to provide one. So this offer is hereby withdrawn.Here is a question for you. Have you ever once experienced even the slightest hint of cognitive dissonance, when you consider your whole approach to this thread, in light of the dojo kun you require your students to buy into before studying with you. I am specifically referring to the following three statements.
-Work very hard to perfect or complete human character
-Protect the way of honesty or sincerity
-Value or respect etiquette or manners
After reading your many posts to this thread (and others where you have browbeaten other posters), I can only imagine that the dojo kun must be for your students only, or perhaps it applies to you in the dojo only. And this harkens back to an earlier question I had for you. Just how do you teach these elements in you dojo. Some lead by example.
I guess you may just be one of those remarkable people that can check your "etiquette, manners, honesty and sincerity" when you leave the dojo and not worry yourself about the need to "perfect the human character" until you return. There are some people that can turn manners, honesty, etiquette and sincerity, off and on like a light switch. It as my experience that those that truly strive to be of good character strive to be far more consistent. Blind repetitions of dojo kun, doesn't make one of good character.
The old masters thought that the endless repetition of kata was something that helped develop one's character. Maybe you need to up the reps in you class my friend.
RyuShiKan, I take fundamental issue with your earlier post that when it comes to kata it is quality not quantity. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I too am entitled to tell you that you may be very much mistaken. The key, you see, is quality AND quantity. You do every repetition to the best of your ability, and you do many, many, many repetitions. You and your students just might be surprised at the benefits.
Regarding what I teach, it is a blend of the many arts I have been exposed to over my 30 years in the arts. One current term that might approximate what I teach is MMA. But many MMA systems tend not have a foundation of kata whereas my system is completely kata-based.
Kata, by the way, as practiced by a variety of karateka in a branch of Okinawan karate that has been referred to as "Shuri-te" by a number of distinguished authorities, who have written about the art after the term came into use. And RyuShiKan, you should be well aware, as well-versed as you are in the history of the art, that the written historical record regarding karate, prior to the coining of the term Shuri-te, is woefully deficient. Therefore, when more modern historians chose to use the term Shuri-te, it became a commonly used way to describe a branch of the art.
Let's tally up the record. You requested I provide you some information and I have obliged. I have given you information about the kata I practice, the year I was promoted to Shodan, and the fact that what I teach cannot be described as a "style", because what I teach differs significantly from every system I have been exposed to. I also gave you the hours that my dojo is in session.
I asked you for a number, you have not provided one. And you have ignored my request for your dojo schedule.
Regarding the "style" that I was awarded my rank in, and the master that promoted me, I choose to remain blissfully anonymous.
RyuShiKan, this has been great fun. But it might be a good time to move on. What are your thoughts?
OP
Mike Clarke
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #60
Shurite,
I've just read your last post to Ryu Shin Kan and you'll have to forgive my ignorance but what is MMA ?
Not living in America I'm not privy to the local terminology you are using. Also, I have to say that for a guy my age who says he's been training as long as I have, your reluctance to disclose who you have trained and been tested by in Shuri-te karate only serves to make you look silly. If you took a poll today, I think you would find this to be the case.
Why you choose to 'dance' [as you put it] like this is a sign of immaturity, and I can't see what you gain from it if you wish people on this forum to have any respect for the things you have to say.
At the risk of recieving a very long [and unwanted] reply, can I ask you a simple question in the hope of getting a honest answer back from you?
"Have you ever posted on this forum under the name Zhao Dei
Wei?"
Just a simple 'yes' or 'no' will do thanks.
Mike.
I've just read your last post to Ryu Shin Kan and you'll have to forgive my ignorance but what is MMA ?
Not living in America I'm not privy to the local terminology you are using. Also, I have to say that for a guy my age who says he's been training as long as I have, your reluctance to disclose who you have trained and been tested by in Shuri-te karate only serves to make you look silly. If you took a poll today, I think you would find this to be the case.
Why you choose to 'dance' [as you put it] like this is a sign of immaturity, and I can't see what you gain from it if you wish people on this forum to have any respect for the things you have to say.
At the risk of recieving a very long [and unwanted] reply, can I ask you a simple question in the hope of getting a honest answer back from you?
"Have you ever posted on this forum under the name Zhao Dei
Wei?"
Just a simple 'yes' or 'no' will do thanks.
Mike.
