Questions for karateka in kata-oriented dojos

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Shuri-te

Guest
Fellow Martial Artists:

I am trying to better understand some issues regarding how kata is commonly taught and practiced in Okinawan and Japanese systems today. I have two questions targeted to those karateka that both train in dojos with an emphasis on kata practice, and have an expectation that kata movements provide for good self defense.

For those of you that would like to participate in the post, it would be helpful if you would imagine you have a new beginner student that is "typical." (Average strength, athletic ability, and motivation). The student has come only to learn self defense and has no interest in competitive karate, or in carrying on a tradition, or in the study of karate as a means to moral development or spiritual enlightment.

This student has heard that it often takes approximately 4 years to get to black belt and is expecting to make this investment. Whether the student ever makes it to black belt is not an issue, but for now, all this student is planning is a 4-year investment in the art.

Now let's imagine this student comes to the dojo a reasonable amount for an average student. (You should feel free to define it, but I would say the minimum would be between 3 and 4 hours per week, 50 weeks out of the year).

If this hypothetical "average" student were to train in your dojo,

1. What would be the rate of introduction of kata. (A new kata introduced, on average, every xx months.)

2. What would be a rough estimate of the number of total repetitions for all kata, that this student would practice in the dojo in a typical month. If the number changes over time, the rate of change would be useful as well. (1st year students - xx number of total kata reps per month, 2nd year students - yy number of total kata reps, etc.)

Rough estimates would be fine.

Anything else you want to throw in on the subject would be appreciated.

Thanks for the help.
 
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Disco

Guest
I would say that your generalized time frame of 3 or 4 hrs would be correct. I cannot comment too factually on Japaneese or Okinawan Kata, but it is my understanding that they are more esoteric. I'm basing this on information provided to the MA world, that I have read, on the history and values of Okinawan Karate (the 3 original Ryu's, goju, ishin and shorin).

The katas/hyungs in Korean that I am familiar with (WTF) are nothing more than patterns to emphasize refining blocking and kicking. They were fashioned for competition. There is nothing wrong with that unto itself, but there are/is no hidden agenda embedded (perhaps some of the older Korean style's have that aspect to them). Because they were designed for competition, every belt rank has their own (16 kata/hyung for all ranks withing WTF TKD).

Now because the J/O kata's have that value to them, it should/would take much longer, mabey not to perfect the movements, but to under stand all their implications.
 
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Mike Clarke

Guest
In my dojo [traditional Okinawan goju-ryu] I introduce a new student to their first kata within the first two weeks. How quickly they move on is up to them? Some folk have the ability to remember things quicker than others, however, remembering the moves of a kata is not the same as knowing it. Students have to be able to display their skill and understanding through bunkai as well as the empty air form of doing the kata.

I don't believe in holding students back just to suit some grading syllabus, nor would I teach a student anything I didn't feel they were able to understand. In my dojo, a students progress is determined by them alone, I just endorse their progress, or lack of it!

Mike.
 
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yilisifu

Guest
I start a student on his first basic form within the first couple of weeks. How quickly he progresses from one to the next depends on him and how well he assimilates what he's learning.

The number of repititions of a given form is really hard to estimate. Almost every class involves some form work...
 
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RyuShiKan

Guest
Originally posted by Shuri-te

For those of you that would like to participate in the post, it would be helpful if you would imagine you have a new beginner student that is "typical." (Average strength, athletic ability, and motivation). The student has come only to learn self defense and has no interest in competitive karate, or in carrying on a tradition, or in the study of karate as a means to moral development or spiritual enlightment.

If that’s the case I would tell him to go to another dojo.

Originally posted by Shuri-te
This student has heard that it often takes approximately 4 years to get to black belt and is expecting to make this investment. Whether the student ever makes it to black belt is not an issue, but for now, all this student is planning is a 4-year investment in the art.

4 years?………that’s kind of quick.

Originally posted by Shuri-te
Now let's imagine this student comes to the dojo a reasonable amount for an average student. (You should feel free to define it, but I would say the minimum would be between 3 and 4 hours per week, 50 weeks out of the year).

If this hypothetical "average" student were to train in your dojo,

1. What would be the rate of introduction of kata. (A new kata introduced, on average, every xx months.)

2. What would be a rough estimate of the number of total repetitions for all kata, that this student would practice in the dojo in a typical month. If the number changes over time, the rate of change would be useful as well. (1st year students - xx number of total kata reps per month, 2nd year students - yy number of total kata reps, etc.)

Rough estimates would be fine.

Anything else you want to throw in on the subject would be appreciated.

Thanks for the help.

Just out of curiosity why all the hypothetical stuff?
 
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Shuri-te

Guest
Mike Clarke said:

In my dojo [traditional Okinawan goju-ryu] I introduce a new student to their first kata within the first two weeks. How quickly they move on is up to them?

Mike,

I would be grateful if you could provide me with an approximate number of kata an "average" student might be practicing after say 3 years. But what I am really looking for is the total number of reps, on average that this student might do over time, say in a week or a month? Again an approximation would be fine.

Thanks.

Shuri-te
 
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Shuri-te

Guest
Yilisifu said:

The number of repititions of a given form is really hard to estimate. Almost every class involves some form work...

Yilisifu,

Is there any way you might be able to approximate the number of kata repetitions an average student might practice over time. You can define it any way you want. Say, for example, an "average" student has been with you for three years, and attends class an average amount of time (perhaps 5 hours per week).

How many form repetitions might that person practice, in class, over say a month, on average?

Thanks for the help.
 
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Shuri-te

Guest
RyuShiKan said: If that’s the case I would tell him to go to another dojo.
I am curious what requirements you have in your dojo regarding the personal goals of a prospective student. A sole desire to learn self defense appears insufficient. Can you share what other motivations would be necessary?

RyuShiKan said: 4 years?………that’s kind of quick.
In your opinion, what would be an average period of time to reach Shodan for all kata-oriented karate systems that you are familiar with? This would be based on the assumptions described. (Average student in every way, training say, 4 hours per week, 50 weeks per year.)

RyuShiKan said: Just out of curiosity why all the hypothetical stuff?
I am not quite sure how I would be able to draw any useful conclusions in the absence of common assumptions on which answers would be based.
 
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yilisifu

Guest
It's difficult to put a very accurate number on the number of repetitions of forms practiced in a month. I would guesstimate that if the student attends a 90 minute class three times weekly, he would likely run a given form about 35-40 times at a bare minimum.
 
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chufeng

Guest
ShuriTe,

You asked:
How many form repetitions might that person practice, in class, over say a month, on average?

As a student of YiLiShifu's, I think his first response is best...
If, say for instance, I was slow picking up new material, I would never "run" a form completely through until I had all of the parts. Sifu would not expect someone to perfom a movement that was never taught...

So, for me, I might take a month just to LEARN the movements of the form...and then practice that form for the next 6 to 8 weeks before being exposed to something new...and while being introduced to new material, the older material was always reviewed...

So, your question, "how many times does the average student run a given form in a month?" is almost impossible to answer.
Sifu may run the form 45 times in a month as he's teaching it to the students, but the students don't run it that many times because there is always the "I'm stuck" factor...

Sifu's classes are not the "shake and bake" mini-mall type classes where everyone (sometimes 60 or more students) repeats movements by imitation...he actually explains WHY the movements are done a particular way...

Then there is the "gifted" student who will pick things up very quickly...that student may run the form as many times as Sifu...and then there is everyone in between...

So the answer, "it depends," really is the best answer...

IMHO

:asian:
chufeng
 
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SRyuFighter

Guest
My class lasts for 2 hours each night. We do kata for 1 hour. And then we do other stuff for an hour.
 
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GojuBujin

Guest
Greetings,

Unfortunately at the present I am teaching out of a Taekwondo dojo that does not use the place on saturday and sunday. So we train during that time. Approximatley 4hrs a week of dojo time. The students are instructed they must work out at home in order to develop any proficiency

For the first month or even two. They do kihon. Basic Blocks, strikes, front kick, sanchin dachi, musubi dachi, zenkutsu dachi, heiko dachi. The are also taught Sandan Gi, its a 3 level blocking striking exercise.

After the first 2 months I usually start them on Sanchin or Gekisai Dai Ichi, it just depends on the student. If I start them on Sanchin they'll work on that for a month or two, then most likely they'll be started on Gekisai Dai Ichi and depending on how well they pick that up they'll start Gekisai Dai Ni(very similar kata) a few months later.

They'll work on these 3 kata for several months. Let's say they'll be 9 or 10 months into it before they start on Saifa(maybe)

During all this kata training of course they're also learning and devloping bunkai.

It will take a an average person 3 to 4yrs if they train approximately 3-4 days a week in the dojo in addition to working out on their own to attain Shodan in our school.

Only working out 2 days a week and not working out at all at home I'd say they're not going to get Shodan ever.

If they train 2 days a week in the dojo and train RELIGIOUSLY at home probably 4-5yrs for Shodan.

I always trained 5 days a week in the dojos I've trained in, in addition to training at home. When I was old enough and I got a key I was in the dojo a lot of times on a 6th day as well.

It's more than just kata. Anyone can do the mechanics. It has to be a part of you and your life. Karate is just not external it is internal. It's also knowing the history of the art where it came from, any philosophies associated with it. It's just not so cut and dry like 123. It's done on an idividual basis.

If a student does not train consistently and is not devoting themselves to the art, they are told ie you need to train more, u need to dedicate yourself more, if they do not, unfortunately for them they are in no uncertain terms "asked" to leave. Which unfortunately I found my self having to do such lately.

Of the students that did leave they all completely understood why they had to leave and they're now moving on to what ever it is they're going to move onto.

Michael C. Byrd
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai
 
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Shuri-te

Guest
SRyuFighter,

Are you affiliated with Dan Smith?
 
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RyuShiKan

Guest
Originally posted by Shuri-te
I am curious what requirements you have in your dojo regarding the personal goals of a prospective student. A sole desire to learn self defense appears insufficient. Can you share what other motivations would be necessary?

Firstly, “real” Karate IS self-defense.
Secondly, In our association we have a dojo kun, literally “code of ethics” (as most other karate dojo have as well) that we must learn and try to follow.

DojoKun:

1. "Work very hard to perfect or complete human character."

2. "Protect the way of honesty or sincerity"

3. "Nurture the hard working spirit"

4. "Value or respect etiquette or manners"

5. "Restrain the desire to be aggressive"

These are pretty common sense type things and have no religious affiliation.
The reason why we emphasize training both physical and mind is because a correct state of mind is equally important to martial training as the physical.
I have given several students the boot for lacking "proper moral fiber" or lacking in sincerity in their training.


Originally posted by Shuri-te
In your opinion, what would be an average period of time to reach Shodan for all kata-oriented karate systems that you are familiar with? This would be based on the assumptions described. (Average student in every way, training say, 4 hours per week, 50 weeks per year.)

I have no idea about other systems since we have very little in common with them. However in our system I think the average time is about 6~8 years training on average 8 hours a week.
 
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Shuri-te

Guest
RyuShiKan:

There are some, myself included that believe that firstly, secondly, thirdly and fourthly, real karate is self-defense. This is why I was curious why you would so quickly send someone with a sole desire to learn self-defense, packing off to some other dojo.

I am also curious how you teach someone to "work hard to perfect or complete human character". Can you share some of these elements with this forum? Are your practices standard across RyuTe dojos?

Regarding the other elements of your dojo kun, I am also curious how you would apply those to a student, sight unseen, who might come to your dojo and express a desire to train for four years solely to learn self defense, such that you could instanteously make a decision that they should train elsewhere.

The assumption has been that this student would be average in every way, and meets some minimum amount of time for training, which is your definition.

If you would send an "average" student off to another dojo, once you sized up their "average" work ethic, their "average" respect for others, and their "average" sincerity (average given the norms in your dojo), it just might be possible that in fairness to all you students, you just might have to send up to half your class off to another dojo.

Finally, I fail to see how the requirement to have the students have the right "state-of-mind" for good training supports a reason to dismiss this hypothetical student. This student has merely said that he has not come to your dojo "to study of karate as a means to moral development or spiritual enlightment, or to carry on a tradition." He wants to learn self defense and is in the middle of the pack in your dojo in every way, including having the right state-of-mind.

Do you equate a desire for moral and spiritual enlightment in the dojo as a prerequisite for achieving the right state-of-mind necessary for effective training? Or is it possible for a student to have the right state-of-mind absent these goals?
 
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RyuShiKan

Guest
Originally posted by Shuri-te
RyuShiKan:
There are some, myself included that believe that firstly, secondly, thirdly and fourthly, real karate is self-defense. This is why I was curious why you would so quickly send someone with a sole desire to learn self-defense, packing off to some other dojo.

Your original statement implied that they were only wishing to learn “technique”, not kata, not any of the other things that are included in the art.

Originally posted by Shuri-te
The student has come only to learn self defense and has no interest in competitive karate, or in carrying on a tradition, or in the study of karate as a means to moral development or spiritual enlightment.

Originally posted by Shuri-te
I am also curious how you teach someone to "work hard to perfect or complete human character".

Through training.

Originally posted by Shuri-te
Can you share some of these elements with this forum? Are your practices standard across RyuTe dojos?

Can I? Yes.
Will I? No, mainly because I have no desire to type out long lengthy explanations for someone whom I have never met.
Are pracrices the same through out all our association dojos? Possibly.

Originally posted by Shuri-te
Regarding the other elements of your dojo kun, I am also curious how you would apply those to a student, sight unseen, who might come to your dojo and express a desire to train for four years solely to learn self defense, such that you could instanteously make a decision that they should train elsewhere.

Explained above.


Originally posted by Shuri-te
If you would send an "average" student off to another dojo, once you sized up their "average" work ethic, their "average" respect for others, and their "average" sincerity (average given the norms in your dojo), it just might be possible that in fairness to all you students, you just might have to send up to half your class off to another dojo.

Again, explained above.



Originally posted by Shuri-te
Finally, I fail to see how the requirement to have the students have the right "state-of-mind" for good training supports a reason to dismiss this hypothetical student. This student has merely said that he has not come to your dojo "to study of karate as a means to moral development or spiritual enlightment, or to carry on a tradition." He wants to learn self defense and is in the middle of the pack in your dojo in every way, including having the right state-of-mind.


Why?
Because the original parameters of your “hypothetical student” were this:


Originally posted by Shuri-te
The student has come only to learn self defense and has no interest in competitive karate, or in carrying on a tradition, or in the study of karate as a means to moral development or spiritual enlightment.

While carrying on a tradition makes no difference, the studying for moral and spiritual development does. If they have no interest in this then I would suggest they “shop” elsewhere.

Originally posted by Shuri-te
Do you equate a desire for moral and spiritual enlightment in the dojo as a prerequisite for achieving the right state-of-mind necessary for effective training?

Yes.


Just out of curiousity under your primary art it says “Godan Shihan”.
Why?

Also, what is the purpose for asking these questions about a hypothetical student?
Is it out of morbid curiosity or is there some actual purpose behind it?
 
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Mike Clarke

Guest
Shuri-te,
I can't give you a firm answer to your question regarding the amount of times a student might practice their kata in my dojo.
I don't have a 'set' class as such. The dojo is open and they come when they have the time and stay for as long as they can.

While they are in the dojo they work on all aspects of their training [in my dojo everything is linked to kata] though it may look to an observer like some people are fighting and others lifting weights, and others 'look' like they're training in kata.
Never the less, they are ALL doing kata training as this is the 'attitude' [re; tradition] handed down to me from my teachers.

I don't keep a check on how many times they do a kata in thin air over the years. I just make a note of their improvement, or lack of it. It is up to each student to find the lessons encoded within the kata, how long they take to do that is really up to them.
Sorry I can't be any more helpfull.

Mike.
 
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Shuri-te

Guest
RyuShiKan said: Your original statement implied that they were only wishing to learn “technique”, not kata, not any of the other things that are included in the art.

I am curious why you have chose to conjure up some non-existant implication. Nowhere did I use the term "technique". Nowhere did I say this student did not want to study kata. These are your fabrications. For your review, my statement simply said: "The student has come only to learn self defense and has no interest in competitive karate, or in carrying on a tradition, or in the study of karate as a means to moral development or spiritual enlightment." It would be helpful if you would read something before commenting on it.

It would be interesting to know how you vet out the prospective students that don't measure up to your requirement that they seek moral or spiritual development in your dojo. Do you have a questionnaire that you provide prospective students. Do they commit themselves in writing, or perhaps there a verbal agreement.

Do you have some way to measure their progress in moral and spiritual development. That would be an interesting test to see. Maybe a question like, "has your training in the dojo made you a more humble person, and how much so?"

RyuShiKan said: I have no desire to type out long lengthy explanations for someone whom I have never met.
Now that is an interesting statement. You have made two recent posts on the topic of "Some Okinawan History" as a response to a post, that you seemed to take issue with. The two ran to over 4,900 words. Had you met the person you were replying to?

"RyuShiKan said: Just out of curiousity under your primary art it says “Godan Shihan”, Why."

Again, it would be helpful if you read something before commenting. It clearly says primary art and RANKING . The answer to your odd question "why": that is my rank.

I chose not to indicate the "style" it was awarded in because I have the same belief that Shigeru Nakamura had, at least as described in Bishop's book, where according to his son, he "disliked the thought of karate being divided into separate styles."
 

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