Kata Hangetsu

[Grenadier]

So, I'm going back over the kata Hangetsu, something that I haven't touched in over 14 years. Sometimes going over an old kata that is similar to something that you learned later (Seisan) can be even more difficult than learning it from the start...

In the opening of the kata, you step forward into Hangetsu stance, and perform a slow outward middle block, followed by a punch. That's straightforward enough as it is, but my question concerns the next move.

I've noticed that about half of the Shotokan folks shift the front foot just before making the next step forward, while the other half shifts it during the step forward.

Is there a particular preference for either way? Furthermore, is it something that's faction-specific (JKA, SKIF, ISKF, etc)? Back in the 90's, I had practiced this kata using the "shift your foot first" method.

 

[dancingalone]

The most exposure I have to Shotokan is through friendship with some SKIF folks. The Hangetsu I have seen them play do the shift as a separate movement, but I had assumed that was more or less a learning convenience that was never 'corrected'. I can't think of a good reason to not combine it with the stepping.

The old videos of Kanazawa seem to have him also playing the shift as a distinct movement.

By the way, just curious why you are relearning Hangetsu if you already know Seisan? I know the Goju-ryu and Aragaki versions of Seisan, and I've seen Isshinryu Seisan and Kyan Seisan numerous times... I prefer all of them to Hangetsu and would love to hear your thoughts on why you want to practice it.

 

[Grenadier]

By the way, just curious why you are relearning Hangetsu if you already know Seisan? I know the Goju-ryu and Aragaki versions of Seisan, and I've seen Isshinryu Seisan and Kyan Seisan numerous times... I prefer all of them to Hangetsu and would love to hear your thoughts on why you want to practice it.

Basically, I was a Shotokan practitioner in the early 90's, where I originally learned a version of Hangetsu. After I left the dojo (had to move; grad school took me elsewhere), I switched to Shuri Ryu. When I moved to my current location, I was in a Wado-based system, where I learned Seisan.

At this time, I've essentially gone back to Shotokan.

So far, the transition has been pretty smooth, although I still find myself shifting that front foot at the "fast" ending part like I did in Seisan...

 

[Sojobo]

Hello,

We have a similar disparity amongst Wado practitioners/groups.

If you look at some of the older Sensei (like Suzuki for example) perform this Kata, they will open out the front foot before stepping through. However some of the younger sensei (like Takagi and Ohgami for example) do not.

This is due to what Otsuka taught them and more accurately when he taught them.

Otsuka continually purified his Wado from its inception in 1934 until his death (in 1982) - over this nearly 50 years, he changed things and therefore what he taught an early student he may have changed by the time he got round to teaching the ones that came into his dojo later on in his life.

Neither version is wrong actually, as it is not what you are doing with your feet that is the key - it is what you are doing with your body.

I don't know whether that is any help with the Shoto version though?

Sojobo

 

[OldKarateGuy]

I learned it as shift while stepping, not as a distinct move in and of itself (if I understand your question correctly). Looking at the old (70's vintage) JKA videos, that's the way they do it.
I checked my Nakayama book, often the final arbiter, and the foot shift as the practitioner steps.

 

[Grenadier]

Neither version is wrong actually, as it is not what you are doing with your feet that is the key - it is what you are doing with your body.

I don't know whether that is any help with the Shoto version though?

Sojobo

It does help, actually.

It's good to see that either way is acceptable in both the Shotokan and Wado methods, provided that the body mechanics are still correct.

 

[D.Cobb]

From the Goju Ryu view point, at least from what I have been taught, the foot shift happens after the previous move is complete, but before you can begin the next move or sequence of moves.
When you perform the opening moves of most Goju Kata, Sanchin, Tensho, Seisan etc. you are supposed to lock into the position or posture, throw the punch (fast or slow depending on which kata), then move the foot to "unlock" in preparation for the next move.

Dave

 

[K-man]

From the Goju Ryu view point, at least from what I have been taught, the foot shift happens after the previous move is complete, but before you can begin the next move or sequence of moves.
When you perform the opening moves of most Goju Kata, Sanchin, Tensho, Seisan etc. you are supposed to lock into the position or posture, throw the punch (fast or slow depending on which kata), then move the foot to "unlock" in preparation for the next move.

Once again, it depends. Not that there's a right or wrong.

I suspect that the locking and unlocking may be a Japanese innovation. If you look at this old Hangetsu kata the body straightens with the punch and it appears that he moves without a distinct unlocking of the foot. (Unfortunately you can't see the foot but looking at the fabric of the gi it doesn't seem to move.) This body positioning is different due to the hip rotation in the old form compared to the more turned body and fixed hip in the second.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gfKxxBnEcE&feature=related

In this more modern version there is a distinct move to lock and unlock. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ebJlhR6Tns&feature=related

When I first trained it was under the Goju Kai which is the Japanese version of Goju. When I left that system to pursue Okinawan Goju, I found a number of differences, one of which is the locking unlocking of the foot. When I trained at the Jundokan I asked about this difference and was told that the turned foot was more when you were first learning but as you progressed the turn of the foot wasn't required as you grip the floor with the toes. If the outside edge of the foot is square to the front the toes are slightly in anyway. Masaji Taira Sensei (Jundokan) doesn't move the foot at all. Morio Higaonna when performing kata Sanchin moves the foot ever so slightly but in the following clip of kata Seisan doesn't lock and unlock with the step.

What I have noticed with the Japanese styles is, the techniques are much more exagerated than in the Okinawan forms. This is possibly caused by the more militaristic type of training that was introduced into the schools in Japan vs the more informal dojo training in Okinawa.

There is another big difference between the Shotokan and Goju steps as well. Three point or Sanchin stance is much closer in the Gojo.

Just an aside.

.... throw the punch, fast or slow depending on which kata ...

This is another Japanese change. The Okinawan kata San Seru, Seisan, Shisoshin and Suparinpei are all fast punches. Only Sanchin and Tensho are slow with tension. In the Goju Kai version only the Seisan is fast. :asian: