KATA: Is more better?

[Mrluckyman]

Kata: a formal exercise of punches, kicks, stances, blocks, strikes done in a prearranged pattern. Kata is designed with self defense movements and secret "hidden" techniques that when sufficiently practiced become self evident. A method to practice self defense movements while attaining physical fitness. An excellent method of physcial fitness and cardio.

While those who don't know a multitude will argue that more is NOT better, as it is impossible for one to master more than a few.... I would disagree....Stances, Punches, Kicks, etc. are done the same whether in the street or dojo..one kata or another.. More kata offer more diverse study for individuals with the ability to learn, retain, and yes master the movements.... Of course there is the complete "under the surface" multitude of henka waza, bunkai oyo, etc. "some go deep, some go wide" Most will argue; "To truly understand a kata one must do more than scratch the surface." I agree, but I think we sell our selves short to believe that it takes "a lifetime of study" to master a few kata.....It takes a lifetime to master a few, if a few is all you know..... We humans are capable of so much more.... I practice more kata than most karate-kas....that is because my Sensei taught me more than a few....this was not a request, it was a requirement. I have been told by more than one that "Quality is better than quantity" and I agree...... I just believe that it is possible to have both! Quality OF Quantity! and visaversa! Its in the practice methods, and amount of time on the floor.

Incidentially..... this was usually said after looking at my systems kata list...... Not one of them refused to learn a new kata when given the chance.... and why not, If you have been practicing the same kata list for many years, wouldn't it be nice,refreshing and invigorating to learn something new that is authentic?

Lets quit saying it TAKES a lifetime to master..... those of us who have practiced more than half our lives and continue to do so, do it for one reason, NOT MASTERY, we practice because we love what we do... nothing more, nothing less...... those who didn't fall in love with Kata, quit long ago or will shortly.,....

Is more better? NO its not better, however, it is invigorating,challenging, and a lot of fun!

 

[still learning]

Hello, Any form of excercise? ...the more is usually better than doing very little.

Kata is an excercise.......NO one fights in Kata forms on the streets.

Street survivial is ANYTHING GOES....NO rules...

So doing more is better? ....from the excercise point of view? ....YES! and anytime you can train your body to do certain things is good.

Aloha,

PS: Fights can be very fast..furious..not stopping.. KATA"S help builds stamina!

 

[Grenadier]

Kata is part of the Karate, and it's something that makes your techniques better, along with conditioning the body and mind. If someone has good kata, it usually translates to their being good at the other aspects of the Karate, such as kumite. If anything, it's not unusual to look at the USA-NKF tournaments, and see that those who place highly in their kata divisions, also end up doing very well in their kumite and kobudo divisions too.

If someone is capable of learning the kata, and developing it to the levels that they want to, then I see no problem at all when it comes to learning several dozen kata. The number of kata isn't really an issue, as long as someone has a strong set of fundamentals that they can use during the performance of such kata. You can have both quantity AND quality, and not sacrifice either.

I've known quite a few Shito Ryu practitioners who know around 50 kata, and that because their fundamental techniques are excellent, they can make any of them look fantastic, as long as they keep them practiced. Conversely, I've also seen quite a few practitioners who tried to learn as many kata as they could, yet, all they ended up with, were a set of several dozen sequences that they performed very poorly.

 

[Kwanjang]

Kata or form is GREAT! Thank you for your wonderful post!

 

[Brian S]

Hello, Any form of excercise? ...the more is usually better than doing very little.

Kata is an excercise.......NO one fights in Kata forms on the streets.

I certainly hope people aren't being taught to use kata as if in a fight,lol. Pre-arranged fighting is a watered down way to teach kata. Applying the moves to self defense situations is a good way.

Street survivial is ANYTHING GOES....NO rules...

Street survival? Are there homeless people reading this stuff? lol.

So doing more is better? ....from the excercise point of view? ....YES! and anytime you can train your body to do certain things is good.

Aloha,

PS: Fights can be very fast..furious..not stopping.. KATA"S help builds stamina!

If you are doing kata just for excercise then you are wasting your time imo. Just do tae bo for fitness if that's your goal. Kata should be learned to find the most efficient way of ending an attack.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

Kata is the core of karate, it is the only uninterruptible information that hasn't changed by being passed down over the years. No one kata, no any kata, is capable of being mastered, we all strive to it and continue to strive, but that is what shimeijurasan is. A level of exactitude that is the goal of, though beyond the reach of, all practitioners.

 

[Grenadier]

Kata is an excercise.......NO one fights in Kata forms on the streets.

Of course they don't. At the same time, nobody street fights using classical grappling drills, where a partner extends his hand out and cooperates.

For that matter, nobody is going to fight in a tournament-style fight using the full blown movement taught in the kata. Strikes will be more compact, blocks will be shorter movements than their fundamental training preached. More reliance on the body movement to generate power will be seen.

However, when someone *practices* the techniques using the full movements (whether it be basic training or kata training), it gives them a better understanding of the mechanics involved, along with developing such mechanics, and as you stated earlier, conditioning.

Someone who rigorously trains in kata, and has an understanding of the proper mechanics, and fundamentals, is going to deliver a nasty punch or kick.

 

[Cirdan]

I like the way Chris Denwood explains it:

All of the genuine training in karate is derived from the kata. If we look more closely at the fundamental techniques in karate, it is my suggestion that these are essentially a physical method of being able to repetitively develop the principles contained within them. The key here lies in the principles rather than the actual techniques. I like to think of our common basic techniques as being the founder's way of best expressing those principles in ‘formal' action. Remember that without a physical technique to exist in, principles hold no form at all. We have to think about what's inside the technique in order to make the repetitive training of it worthwhile, since many of these don't (at face value) indicate any strong practical benefits.
For instance, who in their right mind would ever use the technique of junzuki (as it's commonly performed and understood in kihon) in a live fight? Only the most brave or brainless I'd expect! But let me ask you this question in another way – how many individuals would use the principles gained from practising the technique of junzuki in a live fight? If you study the concepts contained in this seemingly impractical technique, a whole range of useful elements can be extracted and adapted to increase your overall ability to apply functional movements. This is of course only if you have an open mind. In reality, this is exactly what karate demands and is what I believe makes the art so special. Among other things, practising junzuki repetitively and with the right mind (one that assesses principles) can actually teach us about balance, co-ordination, weight distribution, movement, creating energy, transferring energy, stabilisation and efficient motion, which I'm sure you'll agree are critical in becoming proficient in self defence.

(from an article at Iain Abernethy`s site)

 

[twendkata71]

Personally I look at kata as the encyclopedia of karate or a text book of sorts. The more kata you have learned and researched the broader your base of knowledge. Now I'm not saying learn a large number of kata just to learn kata. You have to research, study, practice, and break down each kata. Polish each one to infinity. And it does take a long time to really study and perfect these kata. I would suggest if you are going to start on such a journey, you should be at an advanced black belt level to start with,not at a intermediate or shodan/nidan level. At these levels you are just scratching the surface of total knowledge of karate. And in many cases the teachers won't even teach the really advanced aspects of karate until sandan or higher. A good teacher will know when its the right time and if the student it ready for such knowledge.
The thirst for more kata knowledge is apparent in even the most "Traditional " styles of karate like Shotokan, where some of the modern masters, like Kanazawa Hanshi, and Asai Hanshi have added or created extra kata that are not part of their traditional curriculum of kata.
Kanazawa added several Goju ryu kata to his curriculum like Seipai, suparempei, and seienchin from his trips to Okinawa to further his own knowledge. Asai created several kata for his organization's curriculum.
Mabuni's Shito ryu curriculum has as many as 60 kata. Which in my mind I don't see how anyone person could learn that many kata and effectively really know and polish these kata. In some cases certain kata are taught to certain black belts, no one person has learned the total curriculum of kata.

 

[Mrluckyman]

Only the most brave or brainless I'd expect! But let me ask you this question in another way – how many individuals would use the principles gained from practising the technique of junzuki in a live fight?

I have used a junzuki in a live fight...... it was very effective knocking both attackers to the ground....they did not get up on their own either...however, I have practiced precise techniques through lots of kata practice for over 30 years....someone less practiced might not have the same effectiveness....moral is: "Proper Practice Prevents Poor Performance....

 

[Brian S]

I like the way Chris Denwood explains it:


(from an article at Iain Abernethy`s site)

I have a poblem with Abernathy's theoris he sells. His mind is so open that his brain fell out. Kata does not translate to modern mma fighting. Kata techniques are for quickly and efficiently ending an attack. They are not for sprawling,mounting,and doing an armbar.

The fact is, he is making money from his theories. It's only a matter of time before more theories emerge.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Is more better???

Well that depends on what is taught in each one. If only the same techniques are taught in every one than a few will do, but if different techniques are the emphases of each than more is better.

 

[Cirdan]

I have a poblem with Abernathy's theoris he sells. His mind is so open that his brain fell out. Kata does not translate to modern mma fighting. Kata techniques are for quickly and efficiently ending an attack. They are not for sprawling,mounting,and doing an armbar.

I might not be up to date on Abernathy`s latest work but is this not exactly what he is saying too?

 

[Mrluckyman]

. Which in my mind I don't see how anyone person could learn that many kata and effectively really know and polish these kata. In some cases certain kata are taught to certain black belts, no one person has learned the total curriculum of kata.

Not all but....It has taken 36 years @ approx. 2 hours/day...I have learned 134, --- 77 Karate,33 Kobudo, 24 Iaido, including Kihon waza, Bunkai Oyo, Henka Waza..All are traditional and were learned from some of the greatest Sensei......Some Kata are similar, i.e. Rohai, Rohai Nidan, Rohai Sandan all use the same basic pattern but vary the techniques.... in this way they teach the same theory but different methodology to execute with variety of weapons, i.e. openhand block, verses closed hand strike.... Most are very different with amazingly simple and yet complex bunkai oyo and resulting henka waza.....Some envolve a variety of Bunkai Oyo encompassing Karate, Jiu Jitsu, Aikido techniques...some may say that's not traditional, but that is how I was taught.... I respect my sensei's and there fore I don't change them.... I just practice them.... That's what Sensei wanted.... someone to practice..... If you know 5 or 50 it doesn't matter..... practice is what matters.... I am thankful the Lord God Almighty allowed me the privilege of learning and practicing martial arts while in this life..... thank you Jesus! thank you sensei!

 

[Brian S]

I might not be up to date on Abernathy`s latest work but is this not exactly what he is saying too?

His articles about karate on the ground and his interpretations of kata are just take offs of mma.

Karate does not encompass all ranges and some people just can't grasp that. They wish to somehow legitimize karate by spreading that it covers everything when in fact it does not.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

As far as I'm concerned there is no way that anyone can say that they've managed to 'learn' any kata. Two fatal flaws in todays kata training:

1.We don't live in the age when they were created, so we can't actually ask the guy who made them what the moves mean.
2.Even if we did know the original application; they could be a load of crap. People like to inflate their own egos by spreading crap now, who's to say they weren't doing it 400-600 years ago?

As far as training basic techniques is concerned, there are many practical uses for kata. Both strengthening of the body and conditioning the mind for the rigors of long hard training. In regards to bunkai, who's to say they've learned a kata? There are tonnes of different applications to a single movement and there are going to be new observations all the time to improve an existing application.
To stay on topic, yes, more is better, but on it's own it's nothing. Learning a couple of applications is also equally ineffective as you then haven't actually studied the workings of the kata itself. Now if you were to learn the movements, rythm, balance grace and timing; couple that then with a few shown applications for base principles you can then progress onto the next and most important stage of kata development and that's being able to spot techniques in kata autonomously. It is at this stage that the movements for the kata become transparent and the technique shows its true combative form.
However, it is at this stage, that the true focus of refining and tuning the base movements to the kata is usually lost. People tend to learn the moves, then some application then proceed to perform sloppy and unpracticed kata. This goes against the very grain of shimeijurasan.
They all work in coexistence. Do-Jitsu-Jutsu. You can't have one without the other.
I like to think of it like a human body. The Do, makes up the skeleton. It gives shape and proportion to the overall body. The Jitsu is like the skin. It is the outer layer that is seen by everyone and gives definition to the body. The Jutsu is the heart and organs. The things we don't see and can't understand unless years of study are undertaken to do so. Yet they allow the body to work and exist. No skeleton means you have a heap of chaotic skin on the floor. No skin means your organs fall out and die. No organs means the entire body cannot ever live.

A bit poetic I know, but it's the understanding I've carried since I was about 12 years old.

His articles about karate on the ground and his interpretations of kata are just take offs of mma.

Karate does not encompass all ranges and some people just can't grasp that. They wish to somehow legitimize karate by spreading that it covers everything when in fact it does not.

On that front I have to disagree. I'm not a big fan of Ian Abernethy's latest work, I have to agree he does seem to be pandering towards a more MMA oriented audience. However, as far as karate is concerned it encompasses pretty much everything. It means empty hand. If you have empty hands on the ground, it's still karate, if you have empty hands when grappling with someone, it's still karate. It's narrow minded and very linear branches of karate that will argue otherwise. To argue over something like that however is like trying to argue whether it's better to eat arsenic or cyanide. You just can't form a proper argument because in the end it misses the fact that both the arsenic and cyanide will still end with the same effect, just different ways.
As for legitimizing karate. What for? As long as it works it's legitimate enough. I been training in karate for years. I can ground fight and fight standing up. I can grapple and I can exchange blows. Remember that those farmers and poorer folk that relied on old Tode Jutsu from the chinese had to be able to fight with what they had and without causing too much risk to themsleves or their farmland (what goods and injured rice farmer who's field is on fire?). It has been used in wartime for centuries, so as far as I see it that seems legitimate enough, that's with the support of todays MA society or not.

Most are very different with amazingly simple and yet complex bunkai oyo and resulting henka waza.....Some envolve a variety of Bunkai Oyo encompassing Karate, Jiu Jitsu, Aikido techniques...some may say that's not traditional, but that is how I was taught.... I respect my sensei's and there fore I don't change them.... I just practice them.... That's what Sensei wanted.... someone to practice..... If you know 5 or 50 it doesn't matter..... practice is what matters.

I like how you train. Believe me that approach is probably more traditonal than people would have you believe.

 

[TimoS]

In my opinion, regarding karate kata, less is more. There are so many applications to each kata and just knowing them isn't enough. You have to train them constantly so you can tap into those should the need arise without a split second hesitation

I have learned 134, --- 77 Karate,33 Kobudo, 24 Iaido, including Kihon waza, Bunkai Oyo, Henka Waza..

What style has 77 empty hand kata? Incredible amount!
In the kobudo I've started practising we have only 6 different bo kata to be learned until 5. dan, plus 2 sai kata and 1 kata each for tonfa, nunchaku, nunte and eku, and in my opinion, that is more than enough. Sure the booklet mentions something like 26 different bo kata, but what's the point in learning only the outside form and maybe "academically" know the applications (or I should say: know about the applications). Been there and done that and now I want to learn to really use the stuff and less is truly more there! In karate we're told to select maybe three kata and then really get to know those, practise those daily and just maintain the others (we have something like 19 empty hand kata, of which 7 or 8 are part of the "core curriculum" and 1 bo kata, so there's plenty to choose from)
The main question to me really is, am I 100% confident I could use those kata in a real life situation? Are all those applications of all those kata so well learned that I could call upon them without thinking?

 

[Grenadier]

What style has 77 empty hand kata? Incredible amount!

Probably a combination of two or more styles. For example, someone who has studied Shito Ryu and Shotokan Karate could certainly have that number of empty hand kata. There could easily be significant overlap, though, since both systems have a lot of similar kata (Enpi, Bassai Dai / Sho, Gankaku, Gojushiho Sho / Dai, Jion, Naihanchi / Tekki, etc).

 

[twendkata71]

Mrluckyman, is the president of the Traditional karate association, a shito ryu stylist primarily ,Training in Motobuha shito ryu, among others. So, his training history is extensive. This is why he knows so many kata.
In my case I know so many kata because of the different kata I have learned from the four major styles of japanese karate and Okinawan shorin ryu, while associated with the USAKF team coach and technical commitee head for WUKO(now WKF)(Don Madden)and the president of the USAKF(George Anderson) and former president of the USANKF(Roger Jarret) , Learning to be a referee you had the opportunity to learn all of the kata of the four major styles in WKF. But, you can't just learn them you have to work on mastering each one. knowing each kata in depth and polishing each one. It has taken me 27 years to learn the 42 kata and 15 weapons that I know. And I admit I have not yet mastered half of them. But, I keep working on it, and trying hard every day. I want to be able to give my students the best knowledge I can.
If you would like a list of teachers I have learned kata from, please private message me.

 

[jtbdad]

Kata: a formal exercise of punches, kicks, stances, blocks, strikes done in a prearranged pattern. Kata is designed with self defense movements and secret "hidden" techniques that when sufficiently practiced become self evident. A method to practice self defense movements while attaining physical fitness. An excellent method of physcial fitness and cardio.

While those who don't know a multitude will argue that more is NOT better, as it is impossible for one to master more than a few.... I would disagree....Stances, Punches, Kicks, etc. are done the same whether in the street or dojo..one kata or another.. More kata offer more diverse study for individuals with the ability to learn, retain, and yes master the movements.... Of course there is the complete "under the surface" multitude of henka waza, bunkai oyo, etc. "some go deep, some go wide" Most will argue; "To truly understand a kata one must do more than scratch the surface." I agree, but I think we sell our selves short to believe that it takes "a lifetime of study" to master a few kata.....It takes a lifetime to master a few, if a few is all you know..... We humans are capable of so much more.... I practice more kata than most karate-kas....that is because my Sensei taught me more than a few....this was not a request, it was a requirement. I have been told by more than one that "Quality is better than quantity" and I agree...... I just believe that it is possible to have both! Quality OF Quantity! and visaversa! Its in the practice methods, and amount of time on the floor.

Incidentially..... this was usually said after looking at my systems kata list...... Not one of them refused to learn a new kata when given the chance.... and why not, If you have been practicing the same kata list for many years, wouldn't it be nice,refreshing and invigorating to learn something new that is authentic?

Lets quit saying it TAKES a lifetime to master..... those of us who have practiced more than half our lives and continue to do so, do it for one reason, NOT MASTERY, we practice because we love what we do... nothing more, nothing less...... those who didn't fall in love with Kata, quit long ago or will shortly.,....

Is more better? NO its not better, however, it is invigorating,challenging, and a lot of fun!

I have studied Matsubayashi Shorin-Ryu for over 30 years. There are 18 Kata in the system. Once I have learned all that I can from them perhaps I will look for more. I suspect I will never go looking.
I'm not sure number is as important as learning to learn from them.