On Responsibility and the Dissemination of information

[Bill Mattocks]

Actually - you may have been doing MA longer than i have. Which makes you closer to a master than me if i think about it.

Yeah, but you're younger; I got stuff starting to fall off. It's a race to FAIL for me.

 

[dancingalone]

It seems to me that if we collectively decide to stop talking about TECHNIQUE, there wouldn't be much left to discuss that's worthwhile. While discussions about history and lineage are interesting, due to their nature we'd be better off reading more scholarly sources than the typical MT post, no? So that leaves gossip, politics, and religions. Humph.

I recently started a thread over in the karate forum asking which type of block was the faster between the inside-out or the outside-in. I certainly understand the real answer is "it depends" based on the attack, attacker, environment, etc., but I wanted to stimulate some discussion in the forum, if only on an abstracted level and if only to get a variety of opinions from whatever level of people choosing to respond. IMO, the thread simply didn't get as much quality discussion as I would have liked, partially at least due to posters holding much the same opinion as in the OP of this thread.

I would respectfully suggest that forums like MT really wouldn't have much reason for existing if everyone wanted to speak in generalities and say "It's a secret, talk to your instructor." Heck, just send everyone to The Study already since you'd be closing off an important area of discussion in my opinion, leaving little else of importance. The technical discussions on internet forums serve a valuable service. Even if it's BS, it still gets the student thinking and then he is free to seek clarification from his instructor. And if there's even a grain of truth to the discussion, it can serve as a seed for the reader to improve.

I think the concern Michael mentions is overstated. It would be a rare, rare person indeed that would try to learn MA by reading forums like MT solely. But using it as a resource judiciously can and should be possible for any reader out there, beginner or not. There are published books out there for numerous martial arts. Should you try to learn exclusively from the book? Of course not. But you can use it as a resource in conjunction with your in-person teacher. I see MT as no different, even if the content is less focused.

 

[Blade96]

Yeah, but you're younger; I got stuff starting to fall off. It's a race to FAIL for me.

Eh. don't worry if you have chest hair that's older than me =]

I bet you could still give people a run for their money in the ma that you do.

and it still makes you better and more experienced than me.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I have to disagree with this strongly.

My problem with this is that when people try to control information in this manner it is usually a very bad sign. The reason they are afraid of sharing their info is that it will be exposed. Although from a marketing perspective it makes sense.

Think about it.

I've thought about it.
I understand your concerns, but this is just the way things work in traditional martial arts. Genbukan is not alone in this, it is par for the course, so to speak. History, lineage, etc are all things freely shared. I am not talking about secrecy for the sake of obscuring the art itself. I was talking about technique and strategy.

There are no traditional JMA where you can go to the sensei and talk about advanced stuff if you are a newbie. Before you get to that point, you have to have shown that you have mastered the basics. Looking at it from that angle, that is not a bad thing.

Also, part of the traditional secrecy thing comes from the times where spreading knowledge of the advanced stuff could impact your chances of survival. These days that is less of an issue but secrecy was built into many systems. Tenshin Shoten Katori Shinto Ryu for example still requires keppan, which is a blood oath in which you swear not to share secrets with outsiders or may the kami strike down on you.

 

[Bruno@MT]

It seems to me that if we collectively decide to stop talking about TECHNIQUE, there wouldn't be much left to discuss that's worthwhile. While discussions about history and lineage are interesting, due to their nature we'd be better off reading more scholarly sources than the typical MT post, no? So that leaves gossip, politics, and religions. Humph.

Well, I don't know if you ever visit the traditional minjutsu forum, but there is not much discussion about actual technique. That is simply not done.
I cam to MT to learn as much as I could about the history of the art and Genbukan.

Having my doubts about anything 'ninja', I wanted to make sure that I was joining a legit traditional JMA and not someone's childhood fantasy. This is for me where the real value of MT is.

I learned a lot, and then I stuck around because I liked it here.
And let's be honest, is there much technical discussion going on in the non-ninjutsu forums?

 

[Ironcrane]

I think that you have a point in the sharing of to much information to freely. But I think this is a factor that is exploited, rather then the actual cause. I think that the causes are a combination of -

Commercialization: All the "Earn your blue belt in BJJ in 4 weeks, with this DVD." Or the "Beat any MMA guy with this DVD/Learn the secrets Martial Arts Masters, and the Military don't want you to know." And even the belt factories where you just pay your way through the ranks. They're just selling a product.

The (un)Martial Arts: The "Martial" in the Martial Arts, is downplayed a lot to make it more acceptable to the general public. Granted there are other reasons for MA training, and they are valid reasons, so get leeway from this. But the TKD school that wont allow any contact in their sparing, even when they're wearing full sparing gear, or the karate school that removed their iron body training, lose essential parts of their art.

Wolverine/Wise Master : Yes I do mean Wolverine from the X-Men. Everyone wants to be just like Wolverine. The ultimate badass, who can kill you five time before you hit the ground. Or the wise, knowitall Grandmaster, who constantly talks in vauge metaphores, and posses exotic, mystical knowledge. These are both trying to protray some image or hype. But in doing so, the substance of their art gets left behind.

I believe that a combination of these three things are the cause of the problems we've come across.

 

[dancingalone]

And let's be honest, is there much technical discussion going on in the non-ninjutsu forums?

There is SOME from time to time in the karate, taekwondo, kenpo, and general MA forums. Not as much as I would like, but that's the nature of the beast. Most people are more comfortable talking on less technical threads for whatever reason.

 

[Makalakumu]

Lots of great opinions in this thread. Here is something that I can add.

The nature of the internet has been the expansion and dissemination of information. Everything eventually ends up on the net because you can't control people and we all want to talk about things...even secret things. Look, we are getting to the point where even national security could be compromised. Just the other day, the Pentagon targeted Wikileaks because of this. If its not Wikileaks, it will be something else.

The point is that if the Pentagon can't keep "secrets" from the net, how much luck are people going to have in controlling the information about there martial arts? That said, I say share it. Share it all and share in openly so that we can all learn from each other. We live in a new era of information where things that were unheard of ten years ago are now possible when it comes to information. Therefore, I find the subject of this thread somewhat reactionary.

Look at it this way, I came onto MT with a lot of experience in the martial arts and in many ways, I was totally clueless about things. By talking to people and connecting with sincere practitioners from around the world, I've been able to take my art to a whole new level. By reading recommended books and talking about various ideas, I have been able to write a book of my own that recasts the nature of my art and innovates a new way of teaching it.

That wouldn't have been possible without free sharing of information on MT and on the internet in general. And this is one of the reasons why the book that I wrote has never been written before.

The bottom line is that I don't think we are going to be able to stop the flow of information about our art onto the net. That is the new reality that we need to accept. So, how are you going to deal with that? What are you going to tell students? How are you going to sift through this information? Those are the questions that really matter, IMO.

 

[jks9199]

I haven't read the entire thread yet; my apologies if I'm repeating what others have said.

There is no substitute for direct, personal and in-person instruction and correction in the martial sciences. I believe we can take that as a given.

But I think we can easily do someone a disservice when we simply say "talk to your teacher." I saw the thread that inspired this, and was quite tempted to simply say that these seem the sorts of questions best asked of an instructor, or something along those lines.

But asking the question isn't a problem, nor are some answers. Especially if coupled with a referral to the person's teacher. For example, one part of that post asked about moving in a different direction; apparently a key element of the technique in question is the direction of motion. So, changing that changes the technique... It also seemed that the poster had asked his instructor, and perhaps misunderstood the answer. So, rather than a blunt "ask your teacher", and answer more like "you really need to discuss this with your teacher because when you move backwards, you've changed a key part of the technique" doesn't put too much out -- but does answer a question. (And even sparked an interesting couple of posts...)

I'm not suggesting putting a lot of technical details out there. After all, online, we have no way to know where a person's skill level is, and it's easy to put too much information or too many pieces out too early. It's bad for a beginner to put too much emphasis on some details too early. For example, you can't change the rhythm of that basic up block/punch sequence to the near simultaneous execution of an experienced student until they've developed the elements individually...

I guess what I'm saying is that there is a way to manage to discuss some of these things, without giving out too much, and still making it clear that the best source is almost always one's teacher.

 

[harlan]

To the OP, I concur.

I've never been one of those self-appointed 'martial arts watchdogs'. The type of person that feels the need to expose frauds or 'do something' when faced with less than stellar martial artists promoting themselves. The internet is filled with videos of beginners sharing their 'winning' performances, and I don't see any need to be other than supportive. Everybody starts somewhere. The kids, the fat men and middle-aged women all looking to add something to their lives...I see it as part of their journey and one can't help but be happy for them. Heck, having recently cringed at videos of myself, who am I to judge anyway?

But on occasion, one realizes that the internet, and other media, also has the effect of validating bad martial arts. Of promoting hucksters, spreading images of mediocre performances and thereby lowering the bar as far as the public is concerned.

My comments here were sparked by another thread, I felt it might be appropriate to split away and focus on this particular topic.

We have seen many times in the threads here, members lament the state of the martial arts today. Lots of poor instructors, people doing things that they don't really understand, people trying to be teachers before they are ready, people fooling themselves into believing they are more skilled and more knowledgeable than they really are. It seems like the quality of the arts is crumbling before our very eyes.

I think that at least in part, we are all to blame. The source of our guilt actually lies in our generosity. In short, we are too free with information.

People come onto the forums to discuss the martial arts and meet with like-minded folks. There are a lot of people here representing a wide variety of systems, centuries worth of collective experience, and a huge amount of information. The forums like MT are a vast and wealthy resource for this kind of material. In many ways this is a great thing.

But, it can also be a bad thing.

Sometimes new people arrive on the scene and ask for information that they may not be ready for, they do not have the background to understand, or they are simply approaching the subject in the wrong way. Maybe they would be better off getting the answer to certain types of questions from their own teachers, rather than from an internet discussion.

We, in our generosity, are all too willing to share our knowledge, not considering the pitfalls that we might be helping to create. A lot of information is perfectly fine to share. Maybe some information should not be shared, at least not in this type of venue.

When someone is a beginner in an art and they come to the forums and start asking questions about the technical delivery of certain techniques, I feel they are attempting to discuss something that is inappropriate to this venue. Not because it is a secret, or forbidden or something. Rather, this kind of topic needs hands-on interaction to understand, and they should be getting these answers directly from their teachers. Many arts are heavily splintered, and different lineages do things differently. If they start getting advice online from people across different lineages, they will end up with a mish-mash of information that lacks coherence and cohesiveness, and will give them more troubles than they had before they asked the question. They end up with a bunch of half-understood concepts and fool themselves into thinking they know more than they do. And this interferes with their martial training and development.

We all want to encourage beginners in their enthusiasm and study of the martial arts. We do not want to discourage them and make them give up, nor chase them away from the forums. They may have something good to contribute to the discussions and they may be able to learn some appropriate things from the discussions that go on here.

But I think offering this kind of technical information, under these circumstances, has a great potential to do more harm than good. In my opinion, the many members here who have a lot of knowledge and experience have a responsibility to guide the beginners in helping them understand that there is a right way and a wrong way to go about their training and in getting their information. I think these members would do a greater service to the beginners if they were more willing to point this out to them, rather than just give them the information they were hoping for. I think that if we choose to engage in a discussion with a beginner, we should be giving them the information that they NEED, even when it's not the information that they WANT.

I actually do see this in some cases here. It's been a while, but we sometimes get a newbie who posts about how he is training himself in some kind of sword work. The sword community tends to unite in telling him that this is really a bad idea, and he needs to get a good teacher or else he is going to severely hurt himself or someone else.

I'd like to see that kind of unity in the other forums and venues. Otherwise we are contributing to the miseducation of these people and we share in the responsibility for letting the quality of martial arts fall.

soapbox over.

comments welcome.

 

[SensibleManiac]

It's not nonsense, depending on how it is presented. Mystery cults learned thousands of years ago that truths presented as secrets revealed were treasured, whereas if they were simply given out, they were not valued highly. The 'truths' (whether they were true or not is another question) were generally not really secrets; but not something that would ordinarily occur to a person on their own. Once 'revealed' in the an appropriate setting, time, and place, they took on a special meaning that rendered them more valuable to the recipient.

This is precisely the problem, these "cults" were not about actual truth.
It is time to move away from this way of thinking if our understanding is to evolve and grow.

And in a more practical sense - something is a secret in a very real sense if the average person can't see it; even when it is in plain sight. The act of opening one's eyes to what was there all along is very much as if a curtain is drawn back and a 'secret' revealed. It's an appropriate term in this sense too.

This is what I agree with, This notion of secrets is worthwhile because these "secrets" are so because one just lacks the understanding at that time. The strategies and ways of implementation of techniques can be considered secrets from those who don't understand them, but they are only further manifestations of the basics, that is to say, what is most used.

Any other idea refering to secrets or advanced techniques is just nonsense. In that they have never been seen, not just by myself but any other honest martial artist I've met. Now either I haven't met any truly advanced martial artists or someone is lying about advanced techniques. These are the only possible answers.

Having seen a tiny portion of what can be done, testing and realizing that I cannot yet do it, I am content to practice over and over again until I can also do it as second nature. I believe that this process of achieving mastery takes decades. Not to see or visualize the technique, but to learn to properly apply it without thinking when necessary.

This is fine, it just means that you haven't put in the effort and time YET, to master these skills, the part on mastery taking decades I'm a little weary of, yes it can take a while to master fundamentals, but decades? I suppose it depends on how often one trains as well as other variables.

Don't get me wrong; I am not waiting at the knee of some mystical master to reveal to me the deep secrets of Isshin-Ryu. My instructors are quite willing (and even eager) to share their insights in the form of bunkai, as much as I'm willing to be shown, as much as I can absorb. I am not waiting on them to decide I am worthy of their knowledge; they offer it freely. Rather, I am currently incapable of putting it to best use. I recognize my limitations, but I also believe I can be much much better than I am if I practice diligently and have patience with myself.

It's obvious that this is a healthy perspective.

I don't know you or your teachers, and I cannot comment on what is right for you. I see and appreciate the vast difference between my meager skills and those of my junior instructors who have 20+ years of training on me, and the even more vast difference between even their awesome skills and those of my head instructor, who has 15+ years on them. And my head instructor regularly travels to learn more from his own remaining instructor. I do not think I realistically have enough years left in my life to learn all I need to know to become as good as even my junior instructors, but that does not bother me.

I always keep my sources of information varied and learn from many teachers, I sometimes even inadvertently learn something from people who know less than me, the point being that we need to keep an open perspective on the sources of information we learn from. This will help develop further, any school that discourages sharing of ideas with others brings up a red flag, what are they really afraid of?

I once read this useful quote, it went something like, if someone is teaching you fundamental basics, strategies,and principles, then you are on the right track, if they teach a style, then you are on the wrong track.

I don't know what you mean by 'style' in this sense.

This throw works best like so... really? What if the person executing the throw is throwing someone alot taller than them? What if they are throwing someone alot shorter than them? What if they are the same height? What if the instructor is unusually strong? What if the student is unusually weak?
What if one is unusually fast and the other isn't?
Don't all these factors play some role in style, I've known some extemely talented martial artists who could pull off some techniques in ways that I simply could not and I've found that as I get older I do certain techniques differently than I used to and some I don't do at all anymore, this all comes down to style. I can still teach someone those techniques, but to tell them they aren't useful because of my limitations are appeals to style.

Not everything will work for everyone depending on many variations. This all applies to style.

There are many things in Isshin-Ryu which we are told are individual; a kamei stance, the size of a hangetsu step, the deepness of a heel-toe stance. Each person develops their own way. However, we do Isshin-Ryu kata because that's what we do. If I wanted to do Shotokan or Wado-Ryu or whatever else, I'd leave and do that instead. Is that what you're referring to by 'style'?

By style I'm not refering to martial art styles, but what works for an individual as an individual is a stylistic difference.

Clearly I'm missing something. Could you explain

I hope I have clarified what I meant.

On to Bruno,

I've thought about it.
I understand your concerns, but this is just the way things work in traditional martial arts. Genbukan is not alone in this, it is par for the course, so to speak. History, lineage, etc are all things freely shared. I am not talking about secrecy for the sake of obscuring the art itself. I was talking about technique and strategy.

I know the Genbukan is no alone in this and have some limited experience with the art from years ago, secrecy in techniques doesn't work, as there is nothing secret in techniques, this isn't an attack on anyone or any traditional martial art, just on the fact that this doesn't work, not in traditional martial arts or anywhere else, the idea of keeping a technique secret is nonsense for the reason that the basics are always the same. In other words, if I told you a secret technique is to punch by standing on one foot, extend your pinky and blow on your fist, citing this as a secret technique it would be nonsense. The scientific principles behind generating force are ALWAYS the same, therefore anything thatmoves away from these basic scientific principles is not advanced but nonsense. These are just the facts, the only thing that can be advanced is how the basics are applied. So the punch is the same as a basic punch, it's just the strategy and implementation that can be advanced. the advanced practitioner is just faster or more effective with it, not knowing of secret techniques, that the beginner doesn't know yet.

There are no traditional JMA where you can go to the sensei and talk about advanced stuff if you are a newbie. Before you get to that point, you have to have shown that you have mastered the basics. Looking at it from that angle, that is not a bad thing.

This is a bad thing because it does not exist, you would merely be discussing the basics from your limited undertstanding, there isn't such thing as this advanced "stuff".

If you teach a child the alphabet, it's impossible for him to ask you about reading a university level book, his limitation won't allow him to understand it. He'll still be trying to make out the letters. And will most likely still want to read a book with pretty pictures before moving onto an advanced level book. It's not like the advanced level book contains secrets that can only be discussed in secret by higher ranking people, anyone who can read at a certain level can understand the book. This information can be shared by whoever pleases. Do you understand the logic, why hide anything? If they aren't hiding something for a reason?

Also, part of the traditional secrecy thing comes from the times where spreading knowledge of the advanced stuff could impact your chances of survival. These days that is less of an issue but secrecy was built into many systems. Tenshin Shoten Katori Shinto Ryu for example still requires keppan, which is a blood oath in which you swear not to share secrets with outsiders or may the kami strike down on you.

Yes and I'm saying that to healthy individuals walking around today that this is nonsense, and simply isn't useful.

Well, I don't know if you ever visit the traditional minjutsu forum, but there is not much discussion about actual technique. That is simply not done.

And why not? I think we all know the answer.

I think that you have a point in the sharing of to much information to freely. But I think this is a factor that is exploited, rather then the actual cause. I think that the causes are a combination of -

There is no such thing of sharing too much information too freely, why would there be? In this context. Think about it, every human being on this earth has the right to think don't they? Shouldn't they have the right to an education? Doesn't that make the world a better place or does keeping people in the dark work better? It depends on your motives. Shouldn't everyone have access to information freely, isn't that a good thing. That's what the internet is about isn't it? How can there be too much information?
This doesn't make any sense unless someone has ulterior motives.

Commercialization: All the "Earn your blue belt in BJJ in 4 weeks, with this DVD." Or the "Beat any MMA guy with this DVD/Learn the secrets Martial Arts Masters, and the Military don't want you to know." And even the belt factories where you just pay your way through the ranks. They're just selling a product.

The first example is only a myth, the second is a marketing ploy. Everyone who is charging for martial arts instruction is either selling a product or a service.

Granted there are other reasons for MA training,

and they are valid reasons

,

Really, what are they? I have yet to see any of these "reasons" as valid.

Wolverine/Wise Master : Yes I do mean Wolverine from the X-Men. Everyone wants to be just like Wolverine. The ultimate badass, who can kill you five time before you hit the ground. Or the wise, knowitall Grandmaster, who constantly talks in vauge metaphores, and posses exotic, mystical knowledge. These are both trying to protray some image or hype. But in doing so, the substance of their art gets left behind.

Agreed.

I believe that a combination of these three things are the cause of the problems we've come across.

You would have to elaborate on these problems, the only one I clearly see is the marketing hype of people trying to sell a product or service.

Maunakumu, if I could thank you twice for your post I would!

The bottom line is that I don't think we are going to be able to stop the flow of information about our art onto the net. That is the new reality that we need to accept. So, how are you going to deal with that? What are you going to tell students? How are you going to sift through this information? Those are the questions that really matter, IMO.

Very useful and thought provoking!


I just want to add, the point of my post is to get people thinking about this, not to berate or insult anyone, I think we"re all too intelligent for that and just want to see us putting that intelligence to good use.

I do agree that people can get ahead of themselves with too much info, they might want to learn to run before they can walk, but that is hardly a threat to the truth or anyone who wants to impart the truth, that can only threaten those who are selling snake oil.

 

[Makalakumu]

Interesting comments, Sensiblemaniac. This problem is something we struggle with in the education field. Technology has changed our world so fast that most people have no idea what the "rules" are any more. We have reactionaries trying to put the genie back in the bottle, but these guys are doomed to failure. It is much better to see the wave coming paddle your *** off in order to catch it.

As an education professional, I can honestly say that you must understand how the world has changed or you are doing your students a disservice. We need to talk about the ways we access information about our arts and we need to get as much good information out there as possible. If we hold back, we let the BS artists put out their garbage and that is all people are going to see.

So here is my suggestion, people put your arts out there. Everything. It will get out there eventually, so why not control it by putting it out with forethought and purpose? Be prepared for criticism and trust in yourself. At the same time, be open and learn something. If we combine the powers of the internet with good teaching, we have the potential to grow our arts faster then we ever thought possible.

Every revolution slays some sacred cows. Make yourself a hamburger and enjoy because you can't control it, you can't make it go away, and you can't ignore it. Anyone want cheese on their burgers?

 

[Blade96]

There is SOME from time to time in the karate, taekwondo, kenpo, and general MA forums. Not as much as I would like, but that's the nature of the beast. Most people are more comfortable talking on less technical threads for whatever reason.

i'd talk more but hardly anyone here is shotokan.....lots of times i feel like the only one (though i know I'm not there are maybe 2 others)

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This is precisely the problem, these "cults" were not about actual truth.
It is time to move away from this way of thinking if our understanding is to evolve and grow.

Actually, we have no way of knowing what was or was not truthful about the various mystery cults. It's hard to be dismissive about something we don't know much about.

This is what I agree with, This notion of secrets is worthwhile because these "secrets" are so because one just lacks the understanding at that time. The strategies and ways of implementation of techniques can be considered secrets from those who don't understand them, but they are only further manifestations of the basics, that is to say, what is most used.

I think we agree on this completely.

Any other idea refering to secrets or advanced techniques is just nonsense. In that they have never been seen, not just by myself but any other honest martial artist I've met. Now either I haven't met any truly advanced martial artists or someone is lying about advanced techniques. These are the only possible answers.

No, there's another possibility. You could have met advanced martial artists who didn't teach you what they held as 'secrets'. Granted if you are speaking of instructors who claimed to be giving you secrets that weren't, then yeah.

This is fine, it just means that you haven't put in the effort and time YET, to master these skills, the part on mastery taking decades I'm a little weary of, yes it can take a while to master fundamentals, but decades? I suppose it depends on how often one trains as well as other variables.

Yes, decades. I don't for a moment believe that even gifted martial arts students can learn and apply the deeper aspects of martial arts in a few short years. I've seen too much of those who have a deep understanding of my own style, and the massive differences between a (for example) 5th-dan and 8th-dan. They're both so far beyond me, it's staggering. But there's still a massive difference between them, too. It's not just experience, it's technique. It's the same moves; blocks, punches, kicks. But the applications are amazing. And apparently, what I'm told by those who know is true; it takes decades to master. I have to believe the evidence of my own eyes.

By style I'm not refering to martial art styles, but what works for an individual as an individual is a stylistic difference.

OK, got it.

I hope I have clarified what I meant.

Yep!

 

[dancingalone]

i'd talk more but hardly anyone here is shotokan.....lots of times i feel like the only one (though i know I'm not there are maybe 2 others)

Talk away if you'd like. Many of us are very familiar with Shotokan technique although we may not consider it our style. It is one of the most documented karate systems after all, and there are MANY derivatives owing at least some part to it. People who practice "classic" TKD or Tang Soo Do can often participate meaningfully in technical conversations with Shotokan karate-ka.

 

[Carol]

Talk away if you'd like. Many of us are very familiar with Shotokan technique although we may not consider it our style. It is one of the most documented karate systems after all, and there are MANY derivatives owing at least some part to it. People who practice "classic" TKD or Tang Soo Do can often participate meaningfully in technical conversations with Shotokan karate-ka.

Absolutely. Please talk away. There are Shotokan influences in what I do, I even know some of the forms.

 

[Blade96]

Talk away if you'd like. Many of us are very familiar with Shotokan technique although we may not consider it our style. It is one of the most documented karate systems after all, and there are MANY derivatives owing at least some part to it. People who practice "classic" TKD or Tang Soo Do can often participate meaningfully in technical conversations with Shotokan karate-ka.

Absolutely. Please talk away. There are Shotokan influences in what I do, I even know some of the forms.

Really? i can? that's cool then, thanks

 

[MJS]

Ok, now that I have some free time, I can actually type out a reply without getting sidetracked.

Now, as its been said in the OP, this thread was started, because of comments that were made in another thread in the Kenpo section. Basically, someone can on, asked questions about certain techniques. Some gave replies directly related to the techs and others said that it was best to ask your teacher, and not to learn from the net.

Here are my thoughts: IMHO, I think that the internet is a wonderful thing. You can get online and find info on just about anything you want. Venues such as discussion boards, such as Martial Talk, allow people to chat about a wide range of topics. I've asked questions about arts that I know nothing or little about, as well as asked for thoughts/opinions of others, who train in the same arts as I do. I've also had the chance to talk on the phone, and actually meet one MT member, while he was in the area on a business trip.

Of course, the internet has its dark side. People or should I say fakes and frauds, tend to flock to the net, hiding behind their keyboard, spewing BS, as if they really know what they're talking about. But of course, that is why people need to use their head, take things with a grain of salt, and much like in RL, take those opinions, process them, and do whats best.

Some will say, "Why not ask your teacher these questions rather than ask online?" If everyone did that, then places like this, would not exist, IMO. I suppose a forum could be viewed similar to a seminar. Hell, I've gone to seminars, and asked questions of people who're not my teachers. There're people on here, who say to ask your teacher, yet they travel all over the world, giving seminars, to people that're not their students. So, if you want to get technical about it, those people are contradicting themselves. So its ok to ask in a live setting, but not ok to ask those same questions online?

Speaking for myself, but I try to never make any info that I give, to come across as if its the end all, be all of info, that what I say is gospel, because its not....its a simple opinion, and in many cases, I"ll preface something I say with "IMO" again, to show that its just MY opinion, nothing more.

I've said in many posts, that I'm not a fan of learning via dvd, tape, book, distance learning, etc. because IMO (see there it is..lol) I do not feel as if thats the best way to learn. However, a dvd is a great reference tool. I've watched many Arnis tapes of the late GM Remy Presas. I've watched and studied those tapes, and often have noticed slight differences in what he does. So I'll mention that to my teachers and we'll go over it. Of course, I have a BB rank in Arnis, been training in it for many years, train with people who've spent huge amounts of time with the man, so again, I'm using it as a ref., nothing more. So, should people use forums such as this to learn from? IMO, no because its on the same level as the dvds. But....I do feel that asking questions, looking for feedback from others, etc., is fine. Last time I checked, we're all different from each other. We're not robots. I dont move like my teacher, he doesnt move like me. I dont move like Larry Tatum. So, its very possible that everyone does a tech., slightly different. So, I've come on here, listed a tech., and asked how others do it and why. I've worked with people at seminars and camps, people I've never met in my life, and we'll do the same thing, yet slightly different. I've picked up new ways to do things. Its a friendly exchange of info. IMO, its good to get differing opinions, from other sources other than your teacher.

I havent read every post here, but I did catch a few that mentioned 'secret techs' or things that're just for students of a given art. Personally, I tend to avoid words like secret, as they imply that there is some magical tech. out there that is unbeatable. Perhaps a better choice of wording, is that there're things out there that will only make sense to students of that particualr art, thus to discuss them with someone outside of that art, will be fruitless, because that outsider will have no clue as to whats being discussed. Of course, that also leads to misunderstandings because there're some things that are just too difficult to talk about online, but easier to show.

Enough rambling from me. I told the OP that I would comment, and I did.

To Flying Crane,

Mike,

I hope that you didn't take anything I said in that other thread, the wrong way. You and I have had many great discussions on here, and I do look forward to your input. For myself, I didn't take the person in that other thread, as trying to learn via Martial Talk, but just asking questions. Perhaps he just wanted other opinions. Of course, if he left, as he said he was going to, then we'll never know.

Anyways, I hope my above post shed a little light on my thoughts of the pros and cons of discussion forums.

 

[MJS]

Just wanted to add another part in. Many times people do not have constant contact with Seniors in a given art. For myself, I only had the chance to meet and train with Remy Presas a few times, before he passed. So, in turn, I do my best to train with people who spent alot of time with the man, and fortunately, I have one of those people within walking distance of my home.

There are people who spent hours daily and/or weekly, with GM Ed Parker. So, IMO, its only natural for people to come on and ask questions of those people. So, when you have people saying to those with the questions, "Go ask your teacher!", how does that look to that person?

I recall having a Senior Corner in the Kenpo section here. Sadly it wasn't used like it should have been. These people, unfortunately, will not be around forever. Better take as much knowledge as they're willing to give, before they're gone.

Of course there are also high ranking people who do nothing more than lurk or use the forum to promote their own events/functions, and never contribute any more. I have to ask, why? It could be because those people are tired of the online pissing matches. Case in point...Dale Seago. He's a high ranking, very knowledgeable person in the Bujinkan. He was active on this forum as well as MAP. However, due to the trolls, and people from other arts, coming on, saying that this sucks, that sucks, this or that wont work in 'the cage', blah, blah, blah, that he basically left. You'll see him from time to time on here, but here ya go....a good guy, lots of knoledge, and doesnt post because of the actions of some. Its sad. For the record, no, this wasn't a shot at Dale. It was a shot at the jerks who ruin the chance for others to learn from the man. Think about it....I live in CT....Dale lives in CA. If I were training in the Bujinkan, I for one, would love to have to chance to pick up something, anything, even written words, from someone who has the skill and knowledge. Could that same knowledge be gained from your current teacher? Possibly, but again, its another opinion.

Thats all, sorry for another rant.

 

[wushuguy]

This is a great topic. And yes, very reasonable to discuss what responsibilities one should be aware of when sharing info freely on the net. from my observation, most info shareable should be and is things that are general to martial arts and style, such as sharing youtube vids of what a style looks like, between practitioners of a style, their experiences about using it or how they learned something a little different between sifus, or where to get proper information on a subject, etc. these are good for everyone, rated "G" or "PG" to those without martial arts experience or limited experience.

then there are topics that are more indepth, intellectual and requires a bit more experience and understanding to be useful for those who read the post. if one who doesn't understand reads it, misunderstanding can happen and perhaps a wrong practice can occur or the information misused. these kinds of topics should only be discussed and monitored perhaps only letting those who pass "NC-17" or "R" rating to be allowed to view or reply, similar to a closed community, but with good reason because the topics and info shared can easily be misused by those with a bit of understanding but not enough depth, and we don't know who is reading online or what they need the info for, like if someone posts "please teach me ultimate death move hadoken uppercut" and we freely proceed to explain to them the mechanics of it in detail... maybe they use it to do harm, or maybe they practice it without having the proper foundation first and end up hurting themselves... well that's irresponsible!

so some posts like, ask your teacher, etc. that's very valid in my opinion, as their teacher should know their student's ability and teach them according to that natural progression.

so when we reply to posts, it's really good to think about whether we share our experience or knowledge or point people to a resource that will help them, or if we just keep our mouths shut.


sometimes people who ask questions, really don't know what they're asking anyway... like wise with our answers. so anything on a public forum should be taken with a grain of salt.