On Responsibility and the Dissemination of information

[jks9199]

Regarding "secret techniques" or "secret teachings."

Every art has a few of these; some arts have lots. There are a few things in my art which are not taught outside the system. I think that's reasonable; we've got to have a couple of things that are "ours" just like a restaurant may have a special dish or two, or a theme park may have a particular rollercoaster or ride. Most of those, in my art, you won't know about for a while. Very simply, I don't talk about them unless you've trained with me for a while.

But there are also lessons from one teacher to particular students; sometimes these overlap with the broader secrets, sometimes they don't. There are several principles that I simply don't share outside my own class. My teacher taught them to me after many years of training, and hasn't given me permission to teach them more broadly. If you don't have that heritage, you don't get the lesson. And -- in all honesty -- it wouldn't make sense to you without the underlying training.

Neither sort of teaching is stuff that I would put out over the web... After all, it's "secret!"

 

[Flying Crane]

Lots of good comments, it's been an interesting read. Thanks for jumping in, everyone.

 

[Flying Crane]

To Flying Crane,

Mike,

I hope that you didn't take anything I said in that other thread, the wrong way.

never a doubt. We've been talking long enough here that I know where you stand, and nothing you said was taken personally.

 

[Flying Crane]

If the asker doesn't have an instructor he is going to have a poor form no matter what how much or how little information is put out there.

my post was more about the beginner who has an instructor, and is looking for technical information online. He's got an instructor, he's too new to be considering other sources yet, so he really should be getting the answers from his instructor.

If he doesn't have an instructor and is a newbie, he'll get nothing from an online technical discussion.

Maybe I was the only person to ever have two different instructors do things differently in the same art, BUT since its happened to me in three different arts with at least 6 different instructors, I'm a bit skeptical about that. Doing something one way and then learning another didn't cripple my advancement in that art, it gave me a broader background about the use of the art.

When you have an instructor, or several instructors with whom you train on a regular basis, that creates a different situation. What happens while you train with your instructor(s) is a whole different topic and is not what I am getting at.

I'm looking at the beginner who has very little experience with the system, yet he has an instructor, but goes online for explanations. At his beginning level of development, that is when he does not need potentially conflicting information gathered from a variety of internet sources. That information is better left to when he is more experienced. As a beginner, getting this type of informtation thru a source like the internet, is inappropriate, in my opinion.

I don't believe that providing good information damages a person from receiving other good information.

How do you know it's good information? The beginner is in no position to judge that, and he doesn't even know the internet contributors who are giving him the info. He has not idea if it's trustworthy.

A beginner should simply get this kind of technical info from his instructor. Later, there will be opportunities to consider what others might say, but not as a beginner. He's not ready for the variety and variation yet.

 

[harlan]

Good post. My own experience as a beginner was to go to the internet to ask questions, and in time I've decided that it was not beneficial (for me) to do so. As a beginner, there is no base of knowledge and even as a critical thinker, no 'filters' to assess the usefulness of information. And then again, there are the hucksters, opportunists, and just plain nasties...hard for the beginner to tell the difference.

 

[dancingalone]

How do you know it's good information? The beginner is in no position to judge that, and he doesn't even know the internet contributors who are giving him the info. He has not idea if it's trustworthy.

Dunno about the ninjutsu forum brought up by Bruno, but on the forums I participate on here, I don't see that happening. There's enough of a critical mass here at MT where we had an assortment of instructors and serious students participating. I don't think it's likely at all that someone could get away with giving out bad information without being challenged or questioned (in a friendly fashion) by someone else. At the very least a request for clarification would be made. I know this because I myself have 'corrected' others or expressed a different line of thought when I felt it was necessary.

 

[Flying Crane]

Dunno about the ninjutsu forum brought up by Bruno, but on the forums I participate on here, I don't see that happening. There's enough of a critical mass here at MT where we had an assortment of instructors and serious students participating. I don't think it's likely at all that someone could get away with giving out bad information without being challenged or questioned (in a friendly fashion) by someone else. At the very least a request for clarification would be made. I know this because I myself have 'corrected' others or expressed a different line of thought when I felt it was necessary.

well, I've seen various people here who will remain unnamed, post all kinds of info that gives you the impression that they know what they are talking about.

Then, I've found these same people's video postings on Youtube, and they are showing a marked lack of skill, in spite of impressive rank. It makes me realize that a whole lot of people who talk the talk really don't understand it themselves. I'd never take advice from these folks...

 

[Flying Crane]

I haven't read the entire thread yet; my apologies if I'm repeating what others have said.

There is no substitute for direct, personal and in-person instruction and correction in the martial sciences. I believe we can take that as a given.

But I think we can easily do someone a disservice when we simply say "talk to your teacher." I saw the thread that inspired this, and was quite tempted to simply say that these seem the sorts of questions best asked of an instructor, or something along those lines.

But asking the question isn't a problem, nor are some answers. Especially if coupled with a referral to the person's teacher. For example, one part of that post asked about moving in a different direction; apparently a key element of the technique in question is the direction of motion. So, changing that changes the technique... It also seemed that the poster had asked his instructor, and perhaps misunderstood the answer. So, rather than a blunt "ask your teacher", and answer more like "you really need to discuss this with your teacher because when you move backwards, you've changed a key part of the technique" doesn't put too much out -- but does answer a question. (And even sparked an interesting couple of posts...)

I'm not suggesting putting a lot of technical details out there. After all, online, we have no way to know where a person's skill level is, and it's easy to put too much information or too many pieces out too early. It's bad for a beginner to put too much emphasis on some details too early. For example, you can't change the rhythm of that basic up block/punch sequence to the near simultaneous execution of an experienced student until they've developed the elements individually...

I guess what I'm saying is that there is a way to manage to discuss some of these things, without giving out too much, and still making it clear that the best source is almost always one's teacher.

excellent comments, very well said, thank you. You've really sort of expressed my point in a little more concise manner.

My point is not to stifle or control discussion. Rather, it's simply recognizing when discussion of certain kinds of information is inappropriate for this particular type of venue, and directing the beginner to a better source under the circumstances. Namely, his instructor.

 

[dancingalone]

well, I've seen various people here who will remain unnamed, post all kinds of info that gives you the impression that they know what they are talking about.

Then, I've found these same people's video postings on Youtube, and they are showing a marked lack of skill, in spite of empressive rank. It makes me realize that a whole lot of people who talk the talk really don't understand it themselves. I'd never take advice from these folks...

Well, I have no idea who you're talking about. Most everyone who posts in the karate or TKD forums is credible enough IMO. I don't think anyone there is pretending to be some deadly killer when they are not.

But to address your point, possibly we have a case of the coach vs. the practitioner. Possible the writer knows his martial art very well but he no longer practices the MA to a high level due to injury, fitness, whatever. In that situation, I still think his information on a forum like MT might be very useful to the right person.

Now if you're talking about a complete charlatan, I would wonder how he could write informative, TECHNICAL posts if he knew nothing at all about the martial art itself. It's one thing to bluster BS about who taught you and what deadly arts you know. It's quite another to participate on a truly technical thread where you talk about tangible cause and effect and what makes a certain movement superior to another one. The blowhards and the keyboard warriors rarely post on this type of thread because inevitably their words will 'out' what they really are.

 

[Flying Crane]

Now if you're talking about a complete charlatan, I would wonder how he could write informative, TECHNICAL posts if he knew nothing at all about the martial art itself. It's one thing to bluster BS about who taught you and what deadly arts you know. It's quite another to participate on a truly technical thread where you talk about tangible cause and effect and what makes a certain movement superior to another one. The blowhards and the keyboard warriors rarely post on this type of thread because inevitably their words will 'out' what they really are.

No, I don't think these people are deliberately being charlatans. I think they actually believe that they've got it together. But in my opinion, they are missing a lot of things. I don't want to point fingers at anyone in particular because that could ignite a firestorm and I'm not interested in doing that. I'm only making my own judgement of what I see, and comparing it to what these same people have said. Maybe other people would look at the same videos and decide the person is pretty good. I guess we are talking about opinions, and I form mine based on criteria developed from my own training. Others form their own criteria and judge accordingly.

People can over-intellectualize things and talk about technical details and give the impression that they are very knowledgeable. Maybe on a purly academic level they might be considered knowledgeable. But they have little idea how to apply the material and put it into practice. That alone makes me question the academic level of information that they are spouting, and their overall capability.

My point is just that I think you need to be very cautious about accepting advice from someone on the internet, when you haven't even met them. On the internet, everyone's an expert. In reality, very few of them can stand up to the scrutiny. A beginner is in less of a position to make that judgement, or recognize nonsense when they see it.

 

[dancingalone]

People can over-intellectualize things and talk about technical details and give the impression that they are very knowledgeable. Maybe on a purly academic level they might be considered knowledgeable. But they have little idea how to apply the material and put it into practice. That alone makes me question the academic level of information that they are spouting, and their overall capability.

Many here will remember Exile, a (former?) moderator, who was very active in the TKD forums as it was his art. Exile is very smart and very articulate, suitable qualities for his day job, I suppose, and he was visibly interested in technical discussions on the board, especially those to do with kata bunkai. His main detractor on the forum, now banned , derided Exile's opinions on several occasions on the basis of his junior rank: 1st dan, saying he really didn't practice TKD at a high enough level to be an authority on what is right or wrong.

I don't think Exile would be upset with me for using him as an example. First while I believe Exile is probably an excellent martial artist since he's clearly goal-driven and an achiever, I do think he faces some challenges as a latecomer in life to MA. It's tough to get better and better physically as we age, you know? But he might be a fair example of someone who can contribute on a greater level through writing and teaching than as a actual practitioner. And you know what, I would happily read, digest and mull over anything he wrote any time, because there just might be something in it that can help me and my students.

My point is just that I think you need to be very cautious about accepting advice from someone on the internet, when you haven't even met them. On the internet, everyone's an expert. In reality, very few of them can stand up to the scrutiny. A beginner is in less of a position to make that judgement, or recognize nonsense when they see it.

Well, sure. That goes without saying. Caveat emptor and all that. But I think it's an empty fear. No one with any common sense would read an anonymous post on the Internet and then immediately try to follow it verbatim as a sole source of learning. They would read it as an adjunct to their in-person studies, and hopefully derive some meager benefit.

Those without common sense would likely find themselves in trouble anyway without the musings on MT acting as a catalyst. Think about innocent other books like chemistry textbooks or even history books. They can be used for good or bad - it's all up to the reader. A little bit of knowledge is dangerous without context, whether it is in chemistry or in martial arts. IMO, it's a fruitless quest to try to lock up any 'dangerous' bits.

 

[Flying Crane]

IMO, it's a fruitless quest to try to lock up any 'dangerous' bits.

I remember Exile well, and I wish he was still here.

I never said we should try and lock up the "dangerous" bits. I only said that some information is poorly shared in the internet venue. This info is best shared between teacher and student, and it's a valid position to take, to tell this to a beginner who is asking certain types of questions.

What happened over in the Kenpo section that sparked this thread, was the OP was offended by the suggestion. A couple of us pointed out that he should get the answers to certain questions from his instructor. He was indignant and seems to have left the forum altogether, simply because we made that suggestion instead of giving the answers that he apparently felt he had a right to. weird.

 

[dancingalone]

What happened over in the Kenpo section that sparked this thread, was the OP was offended by the suggestion. A couple of us pointed out that he should get the answers to certain questions from his instructor. He was indignant and seems to have left the forum altogether, simply because we made that suggestion instead of giving the answers that he apparently felt he had a right to. weird.

Ah, I found the thread. I can see both sides. He did ask fairly specific questions which would indicate he was after a certain type of discussion, whether to confirm his own thoughts and beliefs or just to receive a core dump of the information sought. I can understand your perspective, but I could see why he might find your replies pedantic. Sounds like he knew what he was looking for, yet you wanted to engage him as a beginner.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ah, I found the thread. I can see both sides. He did ask fairly specific questions which would indicate he was after a certain type of discussion, whether to confirm his own thoughts and beliefs or just to receive a core dump of the information sought. I can understand your perspective, but I could see why he might find your replies pedantic. Sounds like he knew what he was looking for, yet you wanted to engage him as a beginner.

well, he did state that he's only been doing kenpo for about six months. To me, that's a beginner in kenpo.

He also apparently has trained other arts for over a decade. that may or may not be an asset in learning kenpo. It may or may not be a hindrance in learning kenpo. So I don't automatically assume he has an advantage.

He was a beginner in kenpo, asking for technical guidance in certain portions of the curriculum.

Either way, I found his reaction a bit overblown. He seems to be really offended that we made the suggestion. Enough so to leave the forums altogther. I dunno. Seems like an entitlement mentality, to me. If he doesn't like our suggestion, he can ignore it. But he chose to leave instead.

 

[Carol]

Ah, I found the thread. I can see both sides. He did ask fairly specific questions which would indicate he was after a certain type of discussion, whether to confirm his own thoughts and beliefs or just to receive a core dump of the information sought. I can understand your perspective, but I could see why he might find your replies pedantic. Sounds like he knew what he was looking for, yet you wanted to engage him as a beginner.

At the same time, had he asked to dig in to one purple belt tech, I don't think anyone would have batted an eye. It may have been the way he went about it, maybe even some language differences too. I'm quite functional in my second language (Spanish) but I know I don't come across as smoothly or as gracefully as I would prefer. Heck, I don't always come across as smooth or graceful in English for that matter. :lol:

 

[MattJ]

Apologies for jumping into this late, I just saw it.

FC -

When someone is a beginner in an art and they come to the forums and start asking questions about the technical delivery of certain techniques, I feel they are attempting to discuss something that is inappropriate to this venue. Not because it is a secret, or forbidden or something. Rather, this kind of topic needs hands-on interaction to understand, and they should be getting these answers directly from their teachers.

I can understand that, and agree to a certain point. But a forum is a text-based medium to communicate - no physical anything is going to happen here. Disallowing on-topic questions because one perceives that the questioner may not be technically adept enough to understand the answer is overstepping, IMHO. Kind of voids the whole purpose for a martial-arts forum.

Many arts are heavily splintered, and different lineages do things differently. If they start getting advice online from people across different lineages, they will end up with a mish-mash of information that lacks coherence and cohesiveness, and will give them more troubles than they had before they asked the question. They end up with a bunch of half-understood concepts and fool themselves into thinking they know more than they do. And this interferes with their martial training and development.

I see that type of opinion as somewhat condescending. How do you know what the purpose of the question is? How do you know the person won't understand? I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, unless they really demonstrate otherwise.

But I think offering this kind of technical information, under these circumstances, has a great potential to do more harm than good. In my opinion, the many members here who have a lot of knowledge and experience have a responsibility to guide the beginners in helping them understand that there is a right way and a wrong way to go about their training and in getting their information. I think these members would do a greater service to the beginners if they were more willing to point this out to them, rather than just give them the information they were hoping for. I think that if we choose to engage in a discussion with a beginner, we should be giving them the information that they NEED, even when it's not the information that they WANT.

I can't agree, and it denies the point of this site, really. It's not impossible to learn things from video, or the net, although that is not the best way, IMHO.

I actually do see this in some cases here. It's been a while, but we sometimes get a newbie who posts about how he is training himself in some kind of sword work. The sword community tends to unite in telling him that this is really a bad idea, and he needs to get a good teacher or else he is going to severely hurt himself or someone else.

Fair enough, although the person being referred to in the thread that inspired this one was NOT a beginner, nor were they asking questions about advanced material beyond what they had already learned.

What happened over in the Kenpo section that sparked this thread, was the OP was offended by the suggestion. A couple of us pointed out that he should get the answers to certain questions from his instructor. He was indignant and seems to have left the forum altogether, simply because we made that suggestion instead of giving the answers that he apparently felt he had a right to. weird.

In fairness, the response that offended him offended a few others as well. Some viewed it as insulting.

 

[Flying Crane]

Apologies for jumping into this late, I just saw it.

FC -

I can understand that, and agree to a certain point. But a forum is a text-based medium to communicate - no physical anything is going to happen here. Disallowing on-topic questions because one perceives that the questioner may not be technically adept enough to understand the answer is overstepping, IMHO. Kind of voids the whole purpose for a martial-arts forum.

I'll relate a lot of what i'm saying here in relation to the Kenpo thread that sparked this thread...

I think you and a couple others, based on some comments, are misunderstanding my intentions somewhat. I never said disallow, nor anything like it. Nobody but Bob Hubbard has that power here, to actually control what is discussed, or disallow a topic of discussion. So unless he steps in to do so, it's not going to happen.

I merely stated that it's a poor venue for passing certain types of information, and it's a reasonable and responsible position for a more advanced person to point that out and suggest a better way for a beginner to get his info.

It's advice. The beginner in the other thread asked for advice, and he received a lot. Some of that advice he didn't like. Of course he can choose to ignore that advice. But in my opinion, it was the best advice given in that thread.

I see that type of opinion as somewhat condescending. How do you know what the purpose of the question is? How do you know the person won't understand? I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, unless they really demonstrate otherwise.

as Carol pointed out, there might have been a language barrier that made him express himself less clearly than he might have. But, he came on with a shopping list of techs and asked for clarifiction on technical points. I can only interpret his meaning based on what he has written. My interpretation was that he was asking questions that he'd be better off asking his instructor.

I can't agree, and it denies the point of this site, really. It's not impossible to learn things from video, or the net, although that is not the best way, IMHO.

nobody said he can't learn something from an internet discussion. That IS what this site is all about, after all.

Again, some kinds of information are not conveyed well under this venue. It was good advice.

Fair enough, although the person being referred to in the thread that inspired this one was NOT a beginner, nor were they asking questions about advanced material beyond what they had already learned.

yes, he was a beginner, in kenpo. It doesn't matter what else he had studied. In kenpo, he was a beginner. At this stage of his development IN KENPO, he'd be best served by getting the answers from his instructor.

His own teacher came on that thread and pointed out that the chap has studied shotokan and wing chun, and maybe something else. I don't know much about shotokan, but I did spend a few short years training wing chun. It doesn't use anything like a horse stance nor neutral bow anything like kenpo does. But in the very first tech, he asked about using a horse vs. using a NB. I can say that his wing chun training likely gave him little or no relevant experience to fall back on. In that case, his experience won't serve him in discussing the technical fine points of kenpo self defense techs. It gives him no advantage, nor head start.

in kenpo, he is a beginner. By his own statement, he's had about six months.

In fairness, the response that offended him offended a few others as well. Some viewed it as insulting.

in that same fairness, as I've said a few times now, I think it was an over reaction. I did not read insult in the response. Asking him if he has an instructor, is not insulting.

The guy came on with a shopping list of techs that he wanted clarification on. Backing up for a moment and saying, hey, are you actually studying with someone? Or are you trying to just pick up these techs thru internet descriptions or something? I don't see anything wrong with asking for that clarification, and telling him that if he has a teacher, he would do better to ask his teacher.

Doc and I have certainly locked horns on things in the past. I don't always agree with him and vice-versa. But in this case I don't think he was out of line in the least. I was going to say the same thing he said, but he said it first.

If someone was insulted by what he said, then I think they are over reacting.

 

[pete]

yes, he was a beginner, in kenpo. It doesn't matter what else he had studied. In kenpo, he was a beginner. At this stage of his development IN KENPO, he'd be best served by getting the answers from his instructor.

Here lies the problem, in that their is a mixture of opinion and fact being used to create a straw-man. Fact- he is a beginner in kenpo, Opinion- it doesn't matter what else he had studied, Opinion- in kenpo he'd be best served by getting answers from his instructor... Straw Man: I am really doing him a favor by Not answering his questions.

Falls apart when, a. Differing Opinion is that prior training does matter (EVERYTHING MATTERS), and b. he may be getting one perspective from his instructor, but can benefit from another perspective that connects his prior training to his new kenpo.

If your opinion is such that you feel any answer you provide would be casting pearls before swine, well... you have that right to say so, and refrain from providing answers... just understand its not an absolute and others may see a different opportunity through this communication.

pete.

 

[Blindside]

I'm still trying to figure out just how much a student is harmed by hearing about information other than his own lineage. We aren't even saying other advice is bad advice at this point, only that potential confusion lies in having multiple interpretations or slightly different execution.

Are we agreed that it is highly unlikely that Student X going online and hearing from MushinMatt at Budotalk that the third step of his kata should be to 12:00 rather than the 11:00 like his instructor told him, is unlikely to cause an irrevocable loss of confidence in his instructor and have him quit the arts forever?

So given that it is unlikely to make the student quit martial arts, just how much could this student be harmed? He has an instructor, and is hearing about "other options" that he could be doing. His normal progression is stunted by 5%? 10%? 20%? I'm assuming that this belief that it is harmful to student growth is based on experience.

So what is the experience of the many instructor's on this board with students who are seeking information from the internet or other media?

 

[dancingalone]

So what is the experience of the many instructor's on this board with students who are seeking information from the internet or other media?

Personally, I don't mind it. At a minimum the student is taking initiative to learn the material for himself. ACTIVE learning even if it consults different sources is superior for internalization compared to droning back what Sensei says in class. I recognize that there are almost infinite variations on every technique and there are thousands of ways to explain every martial concept. If one of my students understands better a key point because he saw it demonstrated in a clip on the internet, I have no problems with it.