On Responsibility and the Dissemination of information

[OnlyAnEgg]

There have been many times I've taken advice from the members of this forum and presented it to Sensei. Sometimes he'd show me why it was right. Sometimes, he'd show me how it differed from his teachings.

Overall, as a beginner, it's my obligation to learn. As a student, it's my responsibility to present extant information to my teacher for his opinion.

 

[Carol]

I don't think the concern is centered around what the student learns. I think there is more of a concern from the responder's standpoint as to how the responder's investment in time is going to be used. Is it really to help someone learn Kenpo or is it to help someone become a 10th dan in their own abomination of an art say "yep, this includes Kenpo" or do something else perceived to be bad for the art.

Personally I don't support withholding information, in general. I think the more widely an art is documented, the more consistent its practitioners will become, because their is more material to base a hard standard. The challenge becomes motivating to share what they know in a beneficial manner. Simply pressuring someone to do so is not sufficient.

But...that is just my opinion as someone that has never been an instructor.

 

[wushuguy]

well, from my limited experience as an instructor, some of my students "learned" some "techniques" online, and most of it is off... not sure if they "learned" about it from a forum or from a website, but really one can't learn well something they have little or no experience in, just by reading someone's post. even an excellent and outstanding martial artist with vast experience, couldn't clearly detail how to do a technique easily, let alone most people who post and share knowledge like the majority of us.

Some can do very well via video, such as chinaboxer, but you can see the points made on the video have been well thought out on how to present it and the topic discussed is narrow, any more info and it will be too difficult to answer every aspect or question that may arise. so a good video or post will be right on the topic, well thought out, and not leave room for if's and's or but's, and it won't try to overwhelm a reader/viewer with info.

When I first started my blog, I was thinking of putting a "techniques" section on there, however, after seeing how my students understood stuff they learned online I realized that it would only hamper other's progress in their own arts and make things difficult for their teachers.

So there's nothing wrong with reading stuff online, but when we put an "instructional/how to" post or reply to a person's how to question, we should really consider to speak clearly and accurately and it is helpful to know the approximate level of understanding of the person asking the questions so as to speak in a way they can comprehend accordingly.

I think the purpose of this thread is to let us all have some thought about how we post and share so we can have a better growing community. put more heart to how we post to make sure it is clearly understood.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm still trying to figure out just how much a student is harmed by hearing about information other than his own lineage. We aren't even saying other advice is bad advice at this point, only that potential confusion lies in having multiple interpretations or slightly different execution.

Are we agreed that it is highly unlikely that Student X going online and hearing from MushinMatt at Budotalk that the third step of his kata should be to 12:00 rather than the 11:00 like his instructor told him, is unlikely to cause an irrevocable loss of confidence in his instructor and have him quit the arts forever?

So given that it is unlikely to make the student quit martial arts, just how much could this student be harmed? He has an instructor, and is hearing about "other options" that he could be doing. His normal progression is stunted by 5%? 10%? 20%? I'm assuming that this belief that it is harmful to student growth is based on experience.

So what is the experience of the many instructor's on this board with students who are seeking information from the internet or other media?

On the other hand, I"m trying to understand why anybody would feel that it's a good idea for a six-month newbie to go online and ask for guidance on a forum, instead of (or even in addition to) his instructor. I don't understand why anybody with any level of real experience would feel that is a good idea.

Sure, later when he is more experieced this kind of exploration might be fruitful. But as a six-month newbie? It's a silly idea.

 

[dancingalone]

Michael, It's all about one's perspective. You think his prior experience is immaterial in kenpo. Others don't.

 

[wushuguy]

i think it's great that newbies and experienced martial artists have a forum to go to for guidance. but especially for the newbie, what every he gains from reading online or a forum, gotta ask your teacher about how to understand or use it.

 

[Blindside]

On the other hand, I"m trying to understand why anybody would feel that it's a good idea for a six-month newbie to go online and ask for guidance on a forum, instead of (or even in addition to) his instructor. I don't understand why anybody with any level of real experience would feel that is a good idea.

Sure, later when he is more experieced this kind of exploration might be fruitful. But as a six-month newbie? It's a silly idea.

Is this opinion based on your experience as an instructor? How badly have your students been impacted by researching other sources?

 

[Carol]

But as a six-month newbie? It's a silly idea.

Really?

 

[Flying Crane]

Michael, It's all about one's perspective. You think his prior experience is immaterial in kenpo. Others don't.

I think his prior experience is not automatically an advantage in learning kenpo. I won't assume he's got a head start.

 

[Flying Crane]

Is this opinion based on your experience as an instructor? How badly have your students been impacted by researching other sources?

no. It's based on my experience watching how many students struggle to catch on while working with a real instructor.

Turn that into an internet discussion with no hands-on, no face-to-face, and I don't buy it.

 

[Flying Crane]

Really?

I'm not sure what you are getting at here... were you a newbie in that example? Was there a reason you could not ask your teacher? Personally, I think I would have given you that advice had I seen this thread at the time.

I'm not in a position to judge how well it turned out for you. But I suspect that working with your instructor some more to iron it out would have given you better results that Michael Edward's guidance did.

 

[dancingalone]

I think his prior experience is not automatically an advantage in learning kenpo. I won't assume he's got a head start.

You're actually assuming the opposite: that in spite of his prior experience, he IS a beginner in kenpo. Subtle difference but it makes all the difference in the world. Step back a bit, my friend. You're on the verge of becoming inveterate and dogmatic on this.

 

[Xue Sheng]

semantics anyone

 

[dancingalone]

semantics anyone

Fat and obese can be regarded as semantical expressions to each other. They still convey a different meaning, no?

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

opcorn:

 

[Blindside]

no. It's based on my experience watching how many students struggle to catch on while working with a real instructor.

Turn that into an internet discussion with no hands-on, no face-to-face, and I don't buy it.

Fair enough.

Based off my experience as a student in the age of the internet, where I voraciously searched for everything in any media source related to kenpo and later kali, I can categorically say that it didn't harm my progression in those arts. I base this on my rate of advancement through the underbelt ranks that was faster than average. I can say that the knowledge gained from that research made be a better martial artist and kenpoist than I would have been without it.

In my experience as an instructor, which has only been in the age of the internet, I have NEVER seen a student be harmed or his growth stunted by researching other sources. At worst it is a good discussion point about why we do what we do, and that is exactly what I am supposed to be doing as an instructor.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Fat and obese can be regarded as semantical expressions to each other. They still convey a different meaning, no?

true but no one is arguing that they are different either

opcorn:

opcorn:

 

[dancingalone]

true but no one is arguing that they are different either

They are. Just as there is a difference between these two statements.

I think his prior experience is not automatically an advantage in learning kenpo. I won't assume he's got a head start.

In spite of his prior experience, he IS a beginner in kenpo.

IMO, Michael's actual position that he displays on the two threads is a lot closer to the second sentence than the first. The first is rather more neutral.

 

[Flying Crane]

You're actually assuming the opposite: that in spite of his prior experience, he IS a beginner in kenpo. Subtle difference but it makes all the difference in the world. Step back a bit, my friend. You're on the verge of becoming inveterate and dogmatic on this.

No, he actually stated that he's been doing kenpo for about six months. In my book, that's a beginner, IN KENPO.

He may not be a beginner in something else. but in kenpo, he's a beginner.

 

[dancingalone]

No, he actually stated that he's been doing kenpo for about six months.

Yes, I got that. Does it necessarily follow that he's a true beginner in kenpo? Obviously there's a whole lotta acreage between Yes and No...