On Responsibility and the Dissemination of information

[Flying Crane]

My comments here were sparked by another thread, I felt it might be appropriate to split away and focus on this particular topic.

We have seen many times in the threads here, members lament the state of the martial arts today. Lots of poor instructors, people doing things that they don't really understand, people trying to be teachers before they are ready, people fooling themselves into believing they are more skilled and more knowledgeable than they really are. It seems like the quality of the arts is crumbling before our very eyes.

I think that at least in part, we are all to blame. The source of our guilt actually lies in our generosity. In short, we are too free with information.

People come onto the forums to discuss the martial arts and meet with like-minded folks. There are a lot of people here representing a wide variety of systems, centuries worth of collective experience, and a huge amount of information. The forums like MT are a vast and wealthy resource for this kind of material. In many ways this is a great thing.

But, it can also be a bad thing.

Sometimes new people arrive on the scene and ask for information that they may not be ready for, they do not have the background to understand, or they are simply approaching the subject in the wrong way. Maybe they would be better off getting the answer to certain types of questions from their own teachers, rather than from an internet discussion.

We, in our generosity, are all too willing to share our knowledge, not considering the pitfalls that we might be helping to create. A lot of information is perfectly fine to share. Maybe some information should not be shared, at least not in this type of venue.

When someone is a beginner in an art and they come to the forums and start asking questions about the technical delivery of certain techniques, I feel they are attempting to discuss something that is inappropriate to this venue. Not because it is a secret, or forbidden or something. Rather, this kind of topic needs hands-on interaction to understand, and they should be getting these answers directly from their teachers. Many arts are heavily splintered, and different lineages do things differently. If they start getting advice online from people across different lineages, they will end up with a mish-mash of information that lacks coherence and cohesiveness, and will give them more troubles than they had before they asked the question. They end up with a bunch of half-understood concepts and fool themselves into thinking they know more than they do. And this interferes with their martial training and development.

We all want to encourage beginners in their enthusiasm and study of the martial arts. We do not want to discourage them and make them give up, nor chase them away from the forums. They may have something good to contribute to the discussions and they may be able to learn some appropriate things from the discussions that go on here.

But I think offering this kind of technical information, under these circumstances, has a great potential to do more harm than good. In my opinion, the many members here who have a lot of knowledge and experience have a responsibility to guide the beginners in helping them understand that there is a right way and a wrong way to go about their training and in getting their information. I think these members would do a greater service to the beginners if they were more willing to point this out to them, rather than just give them the information they were hoping for. I think that if we choose to engage in a discussion with a beginner, we should be giving them the information that they NEED, even when it's not the information that they WANT.

I actually do see this in some cases here. It's been a while, but we sometimes get a newbie who posts about how he is training himself in some kind of sword work. The sword community tends to unite in telling him that this is really a bad idea, and he needs to get a good teacher or else he is going to severely hurt himself or someone else.

I'd like to see that kind of unity in the other forums and venues. Otherwise we are contributing to the miseducation of these people and we share in the responsibility for letting the quality of martial arts fall.

soapbox over.

comments welcome.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I also feel that it is that very thing that chases a lot of experinced MAists away from MT.

 

[terryl965]

Michael I just wanted to say thank you for one of the best post I have ever read on MT or any other forum. You my friend are what makes people like me be grateful I was able to read and be a small part of your thinking. I am always humble by the meat and substance you bring with every post. I am unable to rep you and thought this was a better way of doing things.

 

[Bruno@MT]

This is in part the fault of the maintainers of the art themselves.

In Genbukan, there are strict rules about sharing information with outsiders. Private information is not shared with non-members. General topics, history, etc are all fine discussion topics, but specific techniques are off limits if you want to remain a member.

These things are only discussed with your sensei and fellow members. And even within genbukan, lots of information is only available at certain levels. this is both to protect the art and the students.

So imo, the premature sharing of information is really the fault of the ones sharing it. There are enough sensei sharing information on kyusho and other things that should really only be taught to students that are mature enough in their art and as a person to understand it properly and use it appropriately.

 

[Blindside]

To quote Colonel Sherman T. Potter; "horsepucky."

The downside of explaining or discussing an alternate way of doing step X of kata Y is exactly what?

If the asker doesn't have an instructor he is going to have a poor form no matter what how much or how little information is put out there.

If the asker has an instructor, and the answer given is different than whatever is that school/lineage norm is, he is presumably going to get corrected by said instructor, if not, well, that really isn't much of an instructor to start with.

Maybe I was the only person to ever have two different instructors do things differently in the same art, BUT since its happened to me in three different arts with at least 6 different instructors, I'm a bit skeptical about that. Doing something one way and then learning another didn't cripple my advancement in that art, it gave me a broader background about the use of the art.

I don't believe that providing good information damages a person from receiving other good information. For the asker they have to figure out if the information generated off a forum with a bunch of martial arts weirdos is actually valid, and I hope to god they are mentally criticizing the material they are getting from their own instructor. Its called research.

"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing." Wernher Von Braun

 

[seasoned]

Great thread Michael, and I fully respect your input. I will agree that we do get way ahead of ourselves in sharing much information, perhaps prematurely. We are all guilty of this, but that is what makes MT so unique. The amount of information that may get into the novice hands is minuscule to the amount of positive sharing that takes place, IMHO. I would be more cognitive of the study and it's detrimental affect on members of MT, for sure.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The purpose of this, and most other forums is to spread knowledge. If you don't share, sometimes others will, sometimes they won't and sometimes they share the wrong things which hang there. I can understand the concerns and respect them, but in the end, we strive to be an information source, not just a cool place to argue politics.

Good topic.

 

[Carol]

Personally I have benefitted a lot from the people that have shared their info with me. I thnk overall, the benefits of sharing information unquestionably outweigh the risks. However, there is an element to sharing information, especially online, that I think gets forgotton. Most people share info because they want to. I write in my blog because I want to. I update my facebook page because I want to. I share a news article with a friend, because I want to.

What makes me want to answer someone is if I know something that can help them, can share it comfortably, and can see the person is making an effort to learn. They are reaching out, instead of demanding that I reach for them. I also keep that in mind when I am the asker, instead of the responder.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think sharing information and knowledge is great provided it is done in a responsible manner. History, lineage, stylistic impressions are all cool things to learn about and increase your knowledge. Technique, etc. well you can try to share but really it has to be taught in person. There is no way to learn good technique and skills over an internet forum. Just like you cannot learn anything of substance via video study. No instead you have to have a hands on teacher to show you the way and to most importantly point out your mistakes.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

comments welcome.

Interesting analysis.

In no particular order...

I often think I'm the only martial arts student here on MT who isn't some kind of master of something or other. The only black belt I have is in running my mouth. But I try to never offer MA advice without prefacing it with the disclaimer that I'm a newbie, beginner, and utterly uninformed about all things MA.

I think MT has a truly unique quality to it that makes it a place I value. I don't post on other martial arts discussion forums; don't care for their general attitude, mostly.

Some of those specialize in outing frauds and running off wannabes. That can get a bit old, and seems elitist and snobby. If you're not a member of the 'club', you're a nobody and a target.

On the other hand, because MT is so non-judgmental, I sometimes think that some of the OBVIOUS frauds and fakes who are self-proclaimed eleventy-third degree black belts in i-made-it-all-up-ryu are given a free pass to spew their idiocy; which would not normally be an issue, but even as a newbie I can see that some of their nonsense could get someone hurt if they actually tried to defend themselves using it.

I also tend to think that most of the young skulls full of mush who come by and ask if rama-lama-ding-dong-ryu is better than ooh-bomp-a-lula-ryu are not particularly interested in the answer, so who cares of people who don't know (or do know) the answer give it to them? Anybody ever notice these guys show up, ask a series of questions, spawn 10,000 page view threads, and never post again? They're not serious, so who cares if the answers they get are full-tilt bozo?

I notice that the guys who ask which block or kick, etc, tend to be actual students; one hopes they won't take answers they get literally, but take them back to their own instructors, who (also hopefully) will explain to them not to listen to knuckle-draggers or shoe-gazers they run into on teh interwebs.

The ones who perpetually ask if they can learn via DVD or book, if they really have to bow, if they really have to learn a foreign language, if they really have to attend instruction for more than a month or two, and so on, are not particularly interested in the answer; have you ever seen one come back and say "Gee, I see what you mean; I think I'll find a real dojo and invest a decade or so learning a real art?" Nope. They want to be told that a couple free lessons they got a few years ago at a the local strip-mall kwoon and the DVD they bought on eBay qualify them to put that black belt on and become a mentor on MT. They'll keep asking until someone tells them what they want to hear. I am not sure it's a bad thing that morons give bad information to other morons. They're going to find each other anyway; it's like a law or something.

Anyway, that's my martial arts beginner's rant. I'm master of nothing, but I like it here. I am quite aware that there are some high-octane make-um-up black belt frauds on MT, but there are also a lot of really nice people who actually know what they're talking about. The latter outnumber the former, and they make MT the special place it is. So I have to pick mouse turds out of the rice; life goes on.

 

[seasoned]

Interesting analysis.

In no particular order...

I often think I'm the only martial arts student here on MT who isn't some kind of master of something or other. The only black belt I have is in running my mouth. But I try to never offer MA advice without prefacing it with the disclaimer that I'm a newbie, beginner, and utterly uninformed about all things MA.

I think MT has a truly unique quality to it that makes it a place I value. I don't post on other martial arts discussion forums; don't care for their general attitude, mostly.

Some of those specialize in outing frauds and running off wannabes. That can get a bit old, and seems elitist and snobby. If you're not a member of the 'club', you're a nobody and a target.

On the other hand, because MT is so non-judgmental, I sometimes think that some of the OBVIOUS frauds and fakes who are self-proclaimed eleventy-third degree black belts in i-made-it-all-up-ryu are given a free pass to spew their idiocy; which would not normally be an issue, but even as a newbie I can see that some of their nonsense could get someone hurt if they actually tried to defend themselves using it.

I also tend to think that most of the young skulls full of mush who come by and ask if rama-lama-ding-dong-ryu is better than ooh-bomp-a-lula-ryu are not particularly interested in the answer, so who cares of people who don't know (or do know) the answer give it to them? Anybody ever notice these guys show up, ask a series of questions, spawn 10,000 page view threads, and never post again? They're not serious, so who cares if the answers they get are full-tilt bozo?

I notice that the guys who ask which block or kick, etc, tend to be actual students; one hopes they won't take answers they get literally, but take them back to their own instructors, who (also hopefully) will explain to them not to listen to knuckle-draggers or shoe-gazers they run into on teh interwebs.

The ones who perpetually ask if they can learn via DVD or book, if they really have to bow, if they really have to learn a foreign language, if they really have to attend instruction for more than a month or two, and so on, are not particularly interested in the answer; have you ever seen one come back and say "Gee, I see what you mean; I think I'll find a real dojo and invest a decade or so learning a real art?" Nope. They want to be told that a couple free lessons they got a few years ago at a the local strip-mall kwoon and the DVD they bought on eBay qualify them to put that black belt on and become a mentor on MT. They'll keep asking until someone tells them what they want to hear. I am not sure it's a bad thing that morons give bad information to other morons. They're going to find each other anyway; it's like a law or something.

Anyway, that's my martial arts beginner's rant. I'm master of nothing, but I like it here. I am quite aware that there are some high-octane make-um-up black belt frauds on MT, but there are also a lot of really nice people who actually know what they're talking about. The latter outnumber the former, and they make MT the special place it is. So I have to pick mouse turds out of the rice; life goes on.

Bill, you may be an expert in training, but you are definitely a master of the written word, or at least you have a unique way of expressing things. And for that you get a double smile.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill, you may be an expert in training, but you are definitely a master of the written word, or at least you have a unique way of expressing things. And for that you get a double smile.

I'm just running my mouth to hear my head ring, brother. Gotta do something to stay insane these days.

 

[SensibleManiac]

This is in part the fault of the maintainers of the art themselves.

In Genbukan, there are strict rules about sharing information with outsiders. Private information is not shared with non-members. General topics, history, etc are all fine discussion topics, but specific techniques are off limits if you want to remain a member.

These things are only discussed with your sensei and fellow members. And even within genbukan, lots of information is only available at certain levels. this is both to protect the art and the students.

So imo, the premature sharing of information is really the fault of the ones sharing it. There are enough sensei sharing information on kyusho and other things that should really only be taught to students that are mature enough in their art and as a person to understand it properly and use it appropriately.

I have to disagree with this strongly.

My problem with this is that when people try to control information in this manner it is usually a very bad sign. The reason they are afraid of sharing their info is that it will be exposed. Although from a marketing perspective it makes sense.

Think about it.

If the student is not ready then he won't understand the info either way, but trying to shield others from the info tends to only be an excuse. When information is hidden in this manner and the reasons given are to protect a lineage or "group" then why is it OK as long as that "group" is willing to pay.
This isn't about protecting students, if someone wanted to give the reason of keeping the info out of irresponsible hands, then, ok I can buy that. As there are some people who aren't mature enough or responsible enough to learn and train in the martial arts.

But generally speaking I think "protecting" information in any field is rarely a healthy thing and almost always comes from ulterior motives and fear.

Remember when it comes to the truth, what does an organization matter? In other words, why protect an organization if they are revealing the truth? The organization is irrelevant and truth should be verified by the best method we currently have available, the scientific method. This way no organization can own the truth.

Much in the martial arts has become about money today and keeping students for a long time, and having them continue to pay for a long time.

I'm also highly skeptical when someone mentions advanced techniques. If you look at the best champions in any combat sport you'll notice they all use the same techniques as beginners are taught, the basics. They are basic because that's what you will use the most. The champions use the same techniques, they are just better at them and at using them than everyone else. That's why they are champions. If the advanced techniques theory were true then we would see champions using advanced techniques.
Look at any champion boxer, they use the same jab, cross, hooks, uppercuts as any beginning boxer is taught. It's just that they are alot better at using them.

This always raises a red flag. I'm not saying there are no secrets, but secret techniques... doubtful.

I have been involved in the martial arts for over 17 years now and I haven't seen them.

I don't consider myself a master of anything, I consider myself a lifelong student, the reason being that I believe there is always room for evolution and growth, I say this because even though there is not much I haven't seen, there will always be something for me to learn, and I've never seen an advanced technique just an advanced strategy or way of implementing it.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This always raises a red flag. I'm not saying there are no secrets, but secret techniques... doubtful.

Not secret - just not obvious.

I have been involved in the martial arts for over 17 years now and I haven't seen them.

I've been involved for nearly 2 years. Already my senseis have shown me bunkai for the simplest blocks, punches, and kicks; blows my mind how many ways there are to apply a particular technique in a new way. Some are utterly devastating, and also clearly real-life useful. Not by me, at least not for a few decades yet. But yeah, I see, I get it. Not secret, but buried in the kata, hidden in plain view in the basics.

Yes, there are secrets. They're not secret because anyone hid them and refused to reveal them; they're secret because until you are ready, you can't 'see' them. It's not invisible because it's hidden, it's invisible because those who can't see it, can't see it.

Just my 2 cents as a beginner with very, very, good teachers.

 

[SensibleManiac]

Not secret - just not obvious.

Exactly, there is much about techniques that isn't obvious, in usage and strategy, but the term secret technique is nonsense.

Not by me, at least not for a few decades yet. But yeah, I see, I get it. Not secret, but buried in the kata, hidden in plain view in the basics.

A few decades is a long time to get something, I would just say this. If you can develop the critical thinking skills involved in thinking for yourself and learning for yourself as well, (you might already be there) then you will be prepared to think about these things for yourself for life, for the truth is that learning is an ongoing process, when you stop learning you stop developing, but when someone has to rely on a teacher for decades to unfold the "secrets", then you have to ask, why?

I'm not saying having teachers for decades is wrong, I'm always seeking to learn more from them, it's just that I know longer depend on them.

I once read this useful quote, it went something like, if someone is teaching you fundamental basics, strategies,and principles, then you are on the right track, if they teach a style, then you are on the wrong track. Style is individual and what can work for you won't work for everyone, don't attempt to learn someone's style and don't teach yours to others.

Understanding this is key.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Exactly, there is much about techniques that isn't obvious, in usage and strategy, but the term secret technique is nonsense.

It's not nonsense, depending on how it is presented. Mystery cults learned thousands of years ago that truths presented as secrets revealed were treasured, whereas if they were simply given out, they were not valued highly. The 'truths' (whether they were true or not is another question) were generally not really secrets; but not something that would ordinarily occur to a person on their own. Once 'revealed' in the an appropriate setting, time, and place, they took on a special meaning that rendered them more valuable to the recipient.

And in a more practical sense - something is a secret in a very real sense if the average person can't see it; even when it is in plain sight. The act of opening one's eyes to what was there all along is very much as if a curtain is drawn back and a 'secret' revealed. It's an appropriate term in this sense too.

A few decades is a long time to get something, I would just say this. If you can develop the critical thinking skills involved in thinking for yourself and learning for yourself as well, (you might already be there) then you will be prepared to think about these things for yourself for life, for the truth is that learning is an ongoing process, when you stop learning you stop developing, but when someone has to rely on a teacher for decades to unfold the "secrets", then you have to ask, why?

Having seen a tiny portion of what can be done, testing and realizing that I cannot yet do it, I am content to practice over and over again until I can also do it as second nature. I believe that this process of achieving mastery takes decades. Not to see or visualize the technique, but to learn to properly apply it without thinking when necessary.

Don't get me wrong; I am not waiting at the knee of some mystical master to reveal to me the deep secrets of Isshin-Ryu. My instructors are quite willing (and even eager) to share their insights in the form of bunkai, as much as I'm willing to be shown, as much as I can absorb. I am not waiting on them to decide I am worthy of their knowledge; they offer it freely. Rather, I am currently incapable of putting it to best use. I recognize my limitations, but I also believe I can be much much better than I am if I practice diligently and have patience with myself.

I'm not saying having teachers for decades is wrong, I'm always seeking to learn more from them, it's just that I know longer depend on them.

I don't know you or your teachers, and I cannot comment on what is right for you. I see and appreciate the vast difference between my meager skills and those of my junior instructors who have 20+ years of training on me, and the even more vast difference between even their awesome skills and those of my head instructor, who has 15+ years on them. And my head instructor regularly travels to learn more from his own remaining instructor. I do not think I realistically have enough years left in my life to learn all I need to know to become as good as even my junior instructors, but that does not bother me.

I once read this useful quote, it went something like, if someone is teaching you fundamental basics, strategies,and principles, then you are on the right track, if they teach a style, then you are on the wrong track.

I don't know what you mean by 'style' in this sense.

Style is individual and what can work for you won't work for everyone, don't attempt to learn someone's style and don't teach yours to others.

There are many things in Isshin-Ryu which we are told are individual; a kamei stance, the size of a hangetsu step, the deepness of a heel-toe stance. Each person develops their own way. However, we do Isshin-Ryu kata because that's what we do. If I wanted to do Shotokan or Wado-Ryu or whatever else, I'd leave and do that instead. Is that what you're referring to by 'style'?

Understanding this is key.

Clearly I'm missing something. Could you explain?

 

[Omar B]

Some good points raised all around. I'm a big fan of the democratization of information so the idea of secret teachings and the like rub me the wrong way. But maybe that's the freelance journalist in me. Having said that, there certainly is a way to share information without stepping on the toes of Sensei, Sifu and Coaches the world over. You can teach on tape, nor can you teach on the internet.

Have I not been the guy advocating a system where we have to post verifiable lineage and rank? Not that it would help much, I've seen many high ranking jokers.

Here's an idea. I'm a member of a band's message board where new members cannot start threads till they hit the 100 post mark unless it's an introductory thread which only allows mods to respond. Might be an idea.

 

[Blade96]

Sometimes new people arrive on the scene and ask for information that they may not be ready for, they do not have the background to understand, or they are simply approaching the subject in the wrong way. Maybe they would be better off getting the answer to certain types of questions from their own teachers, rather than from an internet discussion.

Good post and I hear ya. I dont ask for help much if at all (whoever knows me on forums know this) Once i asked about clarification of mae geri kekomi and another on the kata heian nidan. But I was learning those things at the time. and I knew the people I was asking. (i know those things now) Most of the time if I have a question, I scurry to my sensei.

Interesting analysis.

In no particular order...

I often think I'm the only martial arts student here on MT who isn't some kind of master of something or other. The only black belt I have is in running my mouth.

Eh?

*raises hand*

what about me? I aint a master either........Yellow belt here.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

what about me? I aint a master either........Yellow belt here.

Sorry! I sometimes get sidetracked by user names. SuperCrippler and GaelicBallStomper and so on. I'm just Bill. I figured I'd change my name to WelshTrouserSnake when I make BB in about seven more years.

 

[Blade96]

Sorry! I sometimes get sidetracked by user names. SuperCrippler and GaelicBallStomper and so on. I'm just Bill. I figured I'd change my name to WelshTrouserSnake when I make BB in about seven more years.

Thats ok. I started shotokan september 2009, earned my first belt almost a month ago now.

Actually - you may have been doing MA longer than i have. Which makes you closer to a master than me if i think about it.

Oh. and I too have a 10th dan in running my mouth. Especially when it comes to things in The Study. lol

btw Blade is not so hard to remember. Bill is an easy name too.