Olympic Dream is it real or just plain insanity!

[Tez3]

Sooooo, you have ridden a fit and tallented race horse on an open track? Nope, no skill needed there. :shrug:

Lori

Nah no skill at all, no dedication watching your weight, no riding out early every morning on the gallops, no fitness needed, no talent. Anyone can do it can't they Lori? ROFLMAO at the horse doing the work!

Inject steroids eh, I that's a serious allegation to make, ATC. If I made that allegation about TKD Olympic people you'd be howling. Perhaps you'd like to take that allegation to the British Racing Board, I think they'd be happy to take compensation from you for false allegations and libel.
My daughter has worked for leading racehorse trainers for nearly ten years now,having ridden and worked with horses from age three, she'll happily tell you about working with race horses and how it's one of the most dangerous jobs going. She's had two serious accidents, one where she was caught in the starting gates when the horse reared, she was saved by one og the loaders quick reasctions when he scooped her up and out and again she was injured when a horse caught it's headcollar in it's stall, as she went to realese it the horse spun and crushed her against the wall, half ton of horse pinning her to it. if the horses were that clever that wouldn't have haven't and they wouldn't need jockeys.

We don't go telling you that TKD is easy and doesn't need any work done by its people so don't you dare tell us who are far more knowledgable than yourself, who works in horse racing and who doesn't. My daughter has also trained and broken in horses for the Royal Dubai Racing club in Dubai where they valued her experience and knowlege but it would seem yours is greater? Don't disrespect something you clearly know nothing about and use it as an anology for martial arts, oh and my daughter does them as well, she's done karate since she was 8 and now fights amateur MMA.

for Lori...Katie on Always Cruising.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I've ridden horses. These light small people have less mass and are suited for the job, yes. However the horse still does the work not the person. Yes they have to be able to stay on the power fit and talented race horse, but that fit and talented race horse still is the one they workout, inject the steroids into, and train to run. Not the jockey.

The horse does the work of getting around the track in the same way that a race car does the work around the track. Both rider and driver are extremely important in both sports. The only difference is that the car has no motivation do drive itself. But once the accelerator is depressed, the car, like the horse, must be controlled and urged around the track. The pacing is important; I know that it is way more than just running the horse or the car flat out.

There is a reason that there is a horsemanship skill and there were people throughout history that were able to dominate and rule over their neighbors because they were better at it. Knights were trained from childhood to ride, and it made a huge difference in a culture where for noblemen, hunting and warfare were all done from horseback.

Kind of off topic so I'll stop, but I think you get where I'm coming from.

Daniel

 

[TKD_Father]

have they been successful?

Absolutely, they sell and endorse MANY products.

*Off-topic about the horse/car racing... I like the analogy. Thing to remember is that it's not just the rider/driver. There's an entire team dedicated to ensuring the horse/car are in top shape. In more "athletic" events it's strictly the competitor. They have coaches, advisers, hypnotists, therapists, etc... but when they are on the mat/floor/air it's just them.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Absolutely, they sell and endorse MANY products.

Bingo!

This is why I say that the olympics are "it." Not because it is a guarantee of fighting the best fighters period, but because it is the closest thing to going 'pro' that you will be able to attain in taekwondo.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

The horse does the work of getting around the track in the same way that a race car does the work around the track. Both rider and driver are extremely important in both sports. The only difference is that the car has no motivation do drive itself. But once the accelerator is depressed, the car, like the horse, must be controlled and urged around the track. The pacing is important; I know that it is way more than just running the horse or the car flat out.

There is a reason that there is a horsemanship skill and there were people throughout history that were able to dominate and rule over their neighbors because they were better at it. Knights were trained from childhood to ride, and it made a huge difference in a culture where for noblemen, hunting and warfare were all done from horseback.

Kind of off topic so I'll stop, but I think you get where I'm coming from.

Daniel

All understood. But regardless of how fit the jockey is the horse is the athlete. I understand that you need some level of fittness to ride the horse but one jockeys ultra fittness level vs. another so so level won't make that much difference. It is more like coaching the horse. The better person in tune with the athelet will be the better jockey. Not the best fit jockey.

The same can be said about a racecar driver. Yes they need some level of fittness but in the end it comes down to how well they know the car and a good crew cheif and pit crew, not the level of fittness by any means.

 

[Tez3]

All understood. But regardless of how fit the jockey is the horse is the athlete. I understand that you need some level of fittness to ride the horse but one jockeys ultra fittness level vs. another so so level won't make that much difference. It is more like coaching the horse. The better person in tune with the athelet will be the better jockey. Not the best fit jockey.

The same can be said about a racecar driver. Yes they need some level of fittness but in the end it comes down to how well they know the car and a good crew cheif and pit crew, not the level of fittness by any means.

Some level of fitness? Wow you really don't know much! They are extremely fit and yes it matters immensely how fit they are, how easy do you think it is to keep a half ton horse running and jumping? How easy to do that for six to ten races in a row? Try doing the Grand National or the Kentucky Derby with 'some' fitness! It may look easy to you but frankly so does Olympic TKD, are you going to tell me they aren't fit then?
Don't belittle other sportsmen,you would be annoyed if I disparaged TKD people. I know a lot of jockeys, they spend time doing weights, running and boxing. They easily match any pro MMA fighter for fitness.

http://www.helium.com/items/639898-what-makes-a-great-horse-racing-jockey

 

[ATC]

Some level of fitness? Wow you really don't know much! They are extremely fit and yes it matters immensely how fit they are, how easy do you think it is to keep a half ton horse running and jumping? How easy to do that for six to ten races in a row? Try doing the Grand National or the Kentucky Derby with 'some' fitness! It may look easy to you but frankly so does Olympic TKD, are you going to tell me they aren't fit then?
Don't belittle other sportsmen,you would be annoyed if I disparaged TKD people. I know a lot of jockeys, they spend time doing weights, running and boxing. They easily match any pro MMA fighter for fitness.

http://www.helium.com/items/639898-what-makes-a-great-horse-racing-jockey

Don't take some level of fitness as able to just get up. Yes they are fit, but one being more fit than the other is not winning factor. That is why there are female and male jockeys that compete against one another. You won't find this in any other sport, not even golf. You need some level of fitness. There is a minimum level of fitness needed. There is a point where the fitness of the jockey won't matter at all. There will be no edge or advantaged gained. However with the horse itself the fitter the better. That is why they inject them with steroids and work them out. That is why they need a good pedigree as well. That is why everyone is looking for the best horse. That is why the money is in horse breeding not jockey building. You want an experienced jockey yes. That is why you see some old jockey's still winning. Are they as fit as the young jockeys? No way. I have see jockeys in their 40's still winning over jockeys in their 20's and 30's. Yes some level of fitness (which is fit) but not ultimate fitness.

 

[ATC]

Nah no skill at all, no dedication watching your weight, no riding out early every morning on the gallops, no fitness needed, no talent. Anyone can do it can't they Lori? ROFLMAO at the horse doing the work!

Inject steroids eh, I that's a serious allegation to make, ATC. If I made that allegation about TKD Olympic people you'd be howling. Perhaps you'd like to take that allegation to the British Racing Board, I think they'd be happy to take compensation from you for false allegations and libel.
My daughter has worked for leading racehorse trainers for nearly ten years now,having ridden and worked with horses from age three, she'll happily tell you about working with race horses and how it's one of the most dangerous jobs going. She's had two serious accidents, one where she was caught in the starting gates when the horse reared, she was saved by one og the loaders quick reasctions when he scooped her up and out and again she was injured when a horse caught it's headcollar in it's stall, as she went to realese it the horse spun and crushed her against the wall, half ton of horse pinning her to it. if the horses were that clever that wouldn't have haven't and they wouldn't need jockeys.

We don't go telling you that TKD is easy and doesn't need any work done by its people so don't you dare tell us who are far more knowledgable than yourself, who works in horse racing and who doesn't. My daughter has also trained and broken in horses for the Royal Dubai Racing club in Dubai where they valued her experience and knowlege but it would seem yours is greater? Don't disrespect something you clearly know nothing about and use it as an anology for martial arts, oh and my daughter does them as well, she's done karate since she was 8 and now fights amateur MMA.

for Lori...Katie on Always Cruising.

Statements in bold above responded to. Um...no one said that the jockeys were on steroids, but rather the horses. Or some equivalent of for animals. If you think they are not then this is for your edification http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/28/sports/othersports/28horses.html

I don't think I ever said that it was not dangerous. Hell being a mail man can be dangerous. Anytime you deal with animals there is an element of danger involved.

Already said that the jockey is needed to get the horse around the track and at the correct pace and speed.

That last statement did not complete your thought. So I am not sure what you are saying. If it is that I said horse racing was easy then again you are just putting words out there that I did not say. I said that the athlete is the horse. Put a spider monkey on my back and have me race against others with spider monkeys on their back and the monkey will need some level of fitness but I need to be in the best shape possible not the monkey.

And please don't take the monkey analogy the wrong way. I am simply using that as reference or comparison of one smaller animal riding another larger animal. I make no reference of any jockey being a monkey or monkey like in any way.

 

[Gorilla]

From "Olympic Dream is it real or just plain insanity"

to Horse Racing and Spider Monkeys!!!!

A little off topic but very fun....

 

[ATC]

From "Olympic Dream is it real or just plain insanity"

to Horse Racing and Spider Monkeys!!!!

A little off topic but very fun....

Thanks for the laugh.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

All understood. But regardless of how fit the jockey is the horse is the athlete. I understand that you need some level of fittness to ride the horse but one jockeys ultra fittness level vs. another so so level won't make that much difference. It is more like coaching the horse. The better person in tune with the athelet will be the better jockey. Not the best fit jockey.

The same can be said about a racecar driver. Yes they need some level of fittness but in the end it comes down to how well they know the car and a good crew cheif and pit crew, not the level of fittness by any means.

Yes, but I was not thinking solely of fitness, but of the combination of fitness and overall skill, not to mention mental fitness.

To connect this back (and get back onto) the topic, if fitness were the only thing needed to make it to the olympics, it would radically alter the focus of training. But it is the combination of both physical fitness, mental fitness, skills, and experience of the athlete coupled with coaching that make the difference.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

Yes, but I was not thinking solely of fitness, but of the combination of fitness and overall skill, not to mention mental fitness.

To connect this back (and get back onto) the topic, if fitness were the only thing needed to make it to the olympics, it would radically alter the focus of training. But it is the combination of both physical fitness, mental fitness, skills, and experience of the athlete coupled with coaching that make the difference.

Daniel

Yes on all aspects. But one will try to be as fit as can be. The more fit the better as is the case for most sports. That is why people cheat and take steroids. To add that little extra that can't be obtained by natural means. It is the edge factor that the athlete is looking for. If it did not work then they would not do it. All things eaqual Barry Bonds never hits 73 home runs, Mark Macguire nevers hits 68, and Sammy Sosa never hits 66. That last little bit extra physical push (by means of something they could never obtain natrually) gave them that edge.

They each had enough of all the components you mentioned and they all reached their physical peak. So to go beyond they enhanced to push beyond their top or max performance.

But yes you are correct. The jockey needs a combination of things but in the end you still need the best horse posible. The jockey can't make the athlete (horse) any faster.

However in TKD the individual is the athlete and there are many more factors than just being fit or even fast that can help you get to the top. When the human is the athlete the equation to the top is much more than physical alone and he and he alone is responsible for making it or not.

 

[Tez3]

Horses on steroids? really? I knew that was what you meant and yes you are still insulting. Horses here aren't on steroids maybe where you are they are but they aren't here. The Horseracing Board of Control here is incredibly vigilant and drugs testing is very strict. I can't believe you are arguing from such a point of knowing very little about it! Still ignorance is bliss so they say. I'll just get back to my horses, sometimes they are more intelligent.
If you want to talk about cheating you just need to look at Olympic TKD for blatant examples. Certainly not a sport I'd be proud to boast I took part in. They screwed the British team for sure.

 

[ATC]

Not my intent to be insulting. Remember this is a big world and the UK is not the world. I live in the US and that is where my point of reference is coming from. You should not take everything so personal. I did not make my statement with you in mind, yet you react like someone said something to you specifically.

I don't live in the UK and you know this yet you make your assumptions as if I do and if I am directing them towards you. Not sure why you do this.

I could see if you said something like "Wow really?! They use steroids on horsed in the US? We don't over here. They banned that some time ago". But you attack me and twist my statements like I was being specific to you. Then add some things that I did not even say or even imply. I was not even thinking about you but simply making a general statement to someone else attempting to make my point on a topic. No one is attacking you or even directing anything towards you. I thought we got past this and understood this.

If you feel insulted I can't help that. I said nothing insulting towards you. My statements are based on what is going on here and here alone. Steroids in race horses are common place here. As far as who or what is the athlete the jockey or the horse, well we just disagree. Should be no hard feeling about that.

 

[mook jong man]

Nah no skill at all, no dedication watching your weight, no riding out early every morning on the gallops, no fitness needed, no talent. Anyone can do it can't they Lori? ROFLMAO at the horse doing the work!

Inject steroids eh, I that's a serious allegation to make, ATC. If I made that allegation about TKD Olympic people you'd be howling. Perhaps you'd like to take that allegation to the British Racing Board, I think they'd be happy to take compensation from you for false allegations and libel.
My daughter has worked for leading racehorse trainers for nearly ten years now,having ridden and worked with horses from age three, she'll happily tell you about working with race horses and how it's one of the most dangerous jobs going. She's had two serious accidents, one where she was caught in the starting gates when the horse reared, she was saved by one og the loaders quick reasctions when he scooped her up and out and again she was injured when a horse caught it's headcollar in it's stall, as she went to realese it the horse spun and crushed her against the wall, half ton of horse pinning her to it. if the horses were that clever that wouldn't have haven't and they wouldn't need jockeys.

We don't go telling you that TKD is easy and doesn't need any work done by its people so don't you dare tell us who are far more knowledgable than yourself, who works in horse racing and who doesn't. My daughter has also trained and broken in horses for the Royal Dubai Racing club in Dubai where they valued her experience and knowlege but it would seem yours is greater? Don't disrespect something you clearly know nothing about and use it as an anology for martial arts, oh and my daughter does them as well, she's done karate since she was 8 and now fights amateur MMA.

for Lori...Katie on Always Cruising.

My name is Sheik Yabooty of Dubai , I am very much wishing to perhaps purchase this beautiful young lady and her mighty steed.

My people will be in touch with you Tez3 oh mother of beautiful one , a thousand thank you's.

 

[Tez3]

My name is Sheik Yabooty of Dubai , I am very much wishing to perhaps purchase this beautiful young lady and her mighty steed.

My people will be in touch with you Tez3 oh mother of beautiful one , a thousand thank you's.

I have to warn you she is a high earner and would need to be kept in the manner she's become accustomed to! If you are feeling brave pm me and I'll point you in the direction of her FB thingy. She's also very much not amused at the comments made here by ATC, a load of bollocks was her pithy comment!

ATC, you may be in America but the horse racing worlds headquarters is in England, the records of all racehorses are kept here, not America. Weatherbys maintain the founding thoroughbreds breed register. The best yards, trainers and breeders are here. Americans send their horses here stud as well as train as do the Saudis, Europeans and the Dubai Royal family. We have the British Racing School here which is international and to which people come from all over the world to train. Quite simply the racing industry is worth millions of pounds and is an international industry run from the UK not America. I've been involved in the industry a long time and I see no need to disapage one sport in an effort to talk up another so yes I will challenge you.Telling the truth whatever the subject is never wrong. I don't know either why you think people in their forties can't be as fit as those in their twenties, I know many martial artists, soldiers, athletes etc who can give the younger ones a good run for their money.

I notice you overlooked my comment about the cheating prevalent in Olympic TKD, it's so bad I believe the British are having a hard time finding people who want to compete in London in 2012, why spend all that time effort and money so that when you obviously score it can be ignored and you lose? Clearly insanity.

 

[terryl965]

I was wondering if we could get back on topic about the Olympic dream of TKD athletes.

I talk to Zachary my 16 year old and this is his take, his chances are 1 1,000,000,000 of making it but what would he be if he did not try and follow hios dreams since he was 7 year old. He does not feel if he cannot make it a failure but instead a winner because he did try and get thier. I know he is a pretty smart boy and he makes meproud all of the time.

 

[ATC]

I have to warn you she is a high earner and would need to be kept in the manner she's become accustomed to! If you are feeling brave pm me and I'll point you in the direction of her FB thingy. She's also very much not amused at the comments made here by ATC, a load of bollocks was her pithy comment!

ATC, you may be in America but the horse racing worlds headquarters is in England, the records of all racehorses are kept here, not America. Weatherbys maintain the founding thoroughbreds breed register. The best yards, trainers and breeders are here. Americans send their horses here stud as well as train as do the Saudis, Europeans and the Dubai Royal family. We have the British Racing School here which is international and to which people come from all over the world to train. Quite simply the racing industry is worth millions of pounds and is an international industry run from the UK not America. I've been involved in the industry a long time and I see no need to disapage one sport in an effort to talk up another so yes I will challenge you.Telling the truth whatever the subject is never wrong. I don't know either why you think people in their forties can't be as fit as those in their twenties, I know many martial artists, soldiers, athletes etc who can give the younger ones a good run for their money.

I notice you overlooked my comment about the cheating prevalent in Olympic TKD, it's so bad I believe the British are having a hard time finding people who want to compete in London in 2012, why spend all that time effort and money so that when you obviously score it can be ignored and you lose? Clearly insanity.

None of what you said means anything. The US is still different than the UK. Steroids still exist in the US (truth be told). And as far as Truth, if it aint math then there is only interpretation, not truth. Just cause you say it is so doesn't make it so.

I did not ignore anything. You made your statement and that is that. There is cheating in all sports. Get over it. I saw plenty of bad calls in the past World Cup. Oh well. It happens. Won't stop the World Cup from being played in the next 4 years. There will always be bad calls and cheating. Just the way it is. Do your best and hope to overcome it.

But keeping on topic. Those so called cheated ones made it to the Olympics. You even got one fighter over there that KO'd the great Steven Lopez (not in the Olympics, but still). So looks like he overcame took matters into his own hands (took it away from the judges) and prevailed. This is what all that want to be on top need to do. Control their own destiny. Don't let anyone or anything stand in their way. Making the Olympics is a great task in any sport let alone TKD, so keep pushing forward as you will have some setbacks but overcoming is the key. Don't just give up. If you make it then great. If not then at least you put up your best shot.

 

[Tez3]

None of what you said means anything. The US is still different than the UK. Steroids still exist in the US (truth be told). And as far as Truth, if it aint math then there is only interpretation, not truth. Just cause you say it is so doesn't make it so.

I did not ignore anything. You made your statement and that is that. There is cheating in all sports. Get over it. I saw plenty of bad calls in the past World Cup. Oh well. It happens. Won't stop the World Cup from being played in the next 4 years. There will always be bad calls and cheating. Just the way it is. Do your best and hope to overcome it.

But keeping on topic. Those so called cheated ones made it to the Olympics. You even got one fighter over there that KO'd the great Steven Lopez (not in the Olympics, but still). So looks like he overcame took matters into his own hands (took it away from the judges) and prevailed. This is what all that want to be on top need to do. Control their own destiny. Don't let anyone or anything stand in their way. Making the Olympics is a great task in any sport let alone TKD, so keep pushing forward as you will have some setbacks but overcoming is the key. Don't just give up. If you make it then great. If not then at least you put up your best shot.

My opinion of Olympic TKD is that it's laughable and the fact that the Olympic judges cheat competitiors out of their rightful places on the podium doesn't help at all. Whats the point of getting to the Olympics if the judges won't score you points and make sure that only certain people win. All this stuff and nonsense about destiny etc when all that will happen is that young peoples hearts will be broken after they've done everything right and that is criminal. We've already heard that only one organisation has the 'rights' to send people to the Olympics, hardly fair is it? In fact nothing is fair at all, it's not a dream it's a nightmare. Making it to the Olympics isn't the be all and end all, a great many people in the world don't care a jot about the Olympics. Just because America says it's true doesn't make it so does it?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

My opinion of Olympic TKD is that it's laughable

How do you mean? The sport itself (technically WTF Sport Taekwondo) or all of the nonsense that goes with being in the olympics?

and the fact that the Olympic judges cheat competitiors out of their rightful places on the podium doesn't help at all. Whats the point of getting to the Olympics if the judges won't score you points and make sure that only certain people win. All this stuff and nonsense about destiny etc when all that will happen is that young peoples hearts will be broken after they've done everything right and that is criminal. We've already heard that only one organisation has the 'rights' to send people to the Olympics, hardly fair is it? In fact nothing is fair at all, it's not a dream it's a nightmare. Making it to the Olympics isn't the be all and end all, a great many people in the world don't care a jot about the Olympics.

Well, the olympics are huge business. Not only in terms of money, but in terms of political favor trading.

No, many people in the world do not care about the olympics. Most in the US really don't. It's full of sports that we don't recognize played by amateur athletes that we've never heard of. The sports that we do recognize and follow generate no interest for us because we already know that the best players aren't playing in them; they're in the pros and the game schedule in US professional leagues is such that going to the olympics would actually hurt the athletes. I am sure that people in other countries have similar observations, the only difference being that the sports and athletes they've never heard of are different than the ones that we've never heard of.

Unfortunately, in amateur sports, the olympics have been for a very long time the only real means of large scale recognition.

Just because America says it's true doesn't make it so does it?

Which America? North, Central, or South?

Daniel