Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?

[Laplace_demon]

I don't care what countries have won. The playing field at the elite level is fairly even. World class coaching and training can be found in many countries now. I'm talking about total athlete pools. There are tons of guys here in Korea that nobody's ever heard of that would dominate in lots of other countries.

Those nations can make the exact same claim. It's impossible to verify. If you go by procentages, then South Korea has more that train TKD outside of sports and would therefore win that battle on a probability estimation alone.

This is WTF sparring from 1989 and is much superior to what is seen today. It's in fact much better than ITF as well.

Too bad todays WTF look nothing like it. They almost never kick to the head. Yet, within 20 seconds there is a head kick. The movements there are more true to real martial art than foot fencing as well.

 

[Gnarlie]

Those nations can make the exact same claim. It's impossible to verify. If you go by procentages, then South Korea has more that train TKD outside of sports and would therefore win that battle on a probability estimation alone.

This is WTF sparring from 1989 and is much superior to what is seen today. It's in fact much better than ITF as well.

Too bad todays WTF look nothing like it. They almost never kick to the head. Yet, within 20 seconds there is a head kick. The movements there are more true to real martial art than foot fencing as well.

The Brit in that video is Gary Hall, the Performance Director for British Taekwondo. I have trained with him and his colleagues and students. Now I train with Koreans at that same level as the Korean competitor in the video. Here's the thing: we can still kick like that, and we do in other contexts. Only the sport has changed. The rules and technology have driven the behavior in that arena. The basic kicking skills of the underlying martial art remain the same.

 

[Laplace_demon]

The Brit in that video is Gary Hall, the Performance Director for British Taekwondo. I have trained with him and his colleagues and students. Now I train with Koreans at that same level as the Korean competitor in the video. Here's the thing: we can still kick like that, and we do in other contexts. Only the sport has changed. The rules and technology have driven the behavior in that arena. The basic kicking skills of the underlying martial art remain the same.

I know you can. These guys have tremendous skill level. Just saying that it's a shame what has happened to the rule sets. And I don't know why?? Even if there are detectors, why does that deter fighters from these more straight forward tactics - kicking to head, and just overall less playing around, foot fencing (which some competitors have no shame in calling it themselves)?

I do question however if todays fighters truly are as great. Supposing that they never fight as directly as in the 80s, how could they ever get good at it?

 

[Gnarlie]

I know you can. These guys have tremendous skill level. Just saying that it's a shame what has happened to the rule sets. And I don't know why?? Even if there are detectors, why does that deter fighters from these more straight forward tactics - kicking to head, and just overall less playing around, foot fencing (which some competitors have no shame in calling it themselves)?

I do question however if todays fighters truly are as great. Supposing that they never fight as directly as in the 80s, how could they ever get good at it?

Two main things: Elite level fighters have got better and better at stuffing the opponent's game. This has created a standoff that didn't exist in the 80's. Those fighters would get trounced on points these days, because those combinations just don't work at the elite level anymore, they get shut down with superior footwork and fast counters.

The other thing is, if you go to a local level tournament, these techniques and combos are still alive and well.

It's not that the players can no longer kick those combinations, it is that the counter and stuff game has got better, meaning that a conservative approach wins matches. There are more head kicks now than ever before, though, due to the massive points advantage they offer.

Additional thought: you still see those combos at the elite level when there is a mismatch. That's what we were seeing in the Gary Hall match; it was early in his career and he what somewhat outclassed. He went on to become a great fighter, coach and trainer, got a lot of respect for him. But on that occasion the skill gap allowed the korean to play and throw some pretty looking combos and counters.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Two main things: Elite level fighters have got better and better at stuffing the opponent's game. This has created a standoff that didn't exist in the 80's. Those fighters would get trounced on points these days, because those combinations just don't work at the elite level anymore, they get shut down with superior footwork and fast counters.

The other thing is, if you go to a local level tournament, these techniques and combos are still alive and well.

It's not that the players can no longer kick those combinations, it is that the counter and stuff game has got better, meaning that a conservative approach wins matches. There are more head kicks now than ever before, though, due to the massive points advantage they offer.

I have seen entire Team sparring matches between South Korea and some other top nation, and there were no head kicks thrown....

Which training method was implemented that reflects this superior usage of the legs as a defensive tool?

 

[Gnarlie]

I have seen entire Team sparring matches between South Korea and some other top nation, and there were no head kicks thrown....

Unlikely to be thrown when the points are relatively even. Why take the risk? But put a good player a few points behind, and they will head upstairs...

Which training method was implemented that reflects this superior usage of the legs as a defensive tool?

The competition rules only penalise certain types of conservative or negative play. It pays to play defensive and conservative unless you are behind. As we saw in London in 2012, that jamming cut kick wins matches. It stops the opponents combo and scores a point too. Why play anything else unless you need to?

Not saying it's entertaining, but it is logical if you want to win.

When the electronic chestguard scoring is not used, and the fighters less skilled with footwork and counter, for example at local level, the game is very different.

 

[Laplace_demon]

But you didn't answer my question; Why is the footwork of todays elite superior to those in the 80s? What in their training methods in the dojangs changed? I assume the fighters of today aren't genetically superior, so something must have changed at the level of training.

 

[Gnarlie]

But you didn't answer my question; Why is the footwork of todays elite superior to those in the 80s? What in their training methods in the dojangs changed? I assume the fighters of today aren't genetically superior, so something must have changed at the level of training.

I sort of did, but I will clarify.

Taekwondo is not static. Since the 80s and before, there have been many generations of fighters, each of which has analysed their opponent's play and developed technique and footwork to overcome the opponent. Each generation has gone on to become trainer or coach, and taught that technique to the new generation, and the cycle has repeated. New strategies, techniques and skills develop in the ring and feed back into the training all the time.

We are looking at 35 years of scientific evolution of a sport since the 80s alone. Of course the game has changed. Of course the fighters are better. Of course they would trounce those 'old school' fighters on points, no question.

Unfortunately for the entertainment factor, there's very little skill gap between top level players now, which creates the stand off and conservative play. The fighters have got better at conserving energy and maintaining a lead. That doesn't mean that they can't turn up the gas when they want to, but they won't risk head hunting when there is not a need to.

Up until a few years ago, the Koreans managed to stay a step ahead of every other nation with their technical development, but that's changed now that other nations have access to better fight analysis and elite training facilities.

 

[TrueJim]

It could be what is done in training, but it could also be training intensity. I.e., modern athletes are doing the same things, just more of it. Body type could also be a factor. As the skill-level required to compete increases, only those with a specific body type are able to compete, which in turn drives up the skill-level required to compete even further. Also, modern sports diet could also be a factor.

How athletes are faster better stronger David Epstein at TED2014 TED Blog

 

[Laplace_demon]

2013 WTF World Taekwondo Championships Final Male -63kg - YouTube

So you really think either one of these guys would beat the best ones from the 80s? I am just a layman when it comes to WTF sparring, but they don't look very fast to me.

 

[Laplace_demon]

They just play around with their feet....

 

[Gnarlie]

2013 WTF World Taekwondo Championships Final Male -63kg - YouTube

So you really think either one of these guys would beat the best ones from the 80s? I am just a layman when it comes to WTF sparring, but they don't look very fast to me.

They are fast, believe me. Lee Dae Hoon is an absolute demon. Absolutely he would win.

It doesn't have to look fast to be fast. They are very good at anticipation and reading the other player.

 

[Gnarlie]

They just play around with their feet....

No, they really don't. You need to participate in this more if you want to actually understand what is going on there.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I want back to the 80s. Everything was more entertaining, including WTF TKDoins!

 

[TrueJim]

Off topic, but...

In my opinion, a lot of sports were more entertaining in the past, when athletes weren't as fast and strong. I remember when tennis involved more volleys, and not so much scoring-on-the-serve. Much more fun to watch. Basketball of the past, same thing: more positioning and shooting, less dunking. In terms of entertainment value, I think some sports suffer when the athletes become too good. That's one reason I like to watch college sports more than pro sports...it's not that the college players aren't good, but they aren't so good that the sport becomes boring to watch.

 

[Tez3]

I want back to the 80s. Everything was more entertaining, including WTF TKDoins!

And in the 80s they were wishing they were back in the 60s and in the 60s they were wishing they were back in the 40s.....it just goes on and on. The truth is that people look at the past with rose coloured glasses, everything seemed 'better' in the past, reality though is actually things are better now, memories deceive.
I've lived through 60 decades and I know for certain that things are better.

 

[Tez3]

Off topic, but...

In my opinion, a lot of sports were more entertaining in the past, when athletes weren't as fast and strong. I remember when tennis involved more volleys, and not so much scoring-on-the-serve. Much more fun to watch. Basketball of the past, same thing: more positioning and shooting, less dunking. In terms of entertainment value, I think some sports suffer when the athletes become too good. That's one reason I like to watch college sports more than pro sports...it's not that the college players aren't good, but they aren't so good that the sport becomes boring to watch.

Well, you need to watch proper sports like rugby (league and union) cricket, polo and welly wanging!

 

[Steve]

And in the 80s they were wishing they were back in the 60s and in the 60s they were wishing they were back in the 40s.....it just goes on and on. The truth is that people look at the past with rose coloured glasses, everything seemed 'better' in the past, reality though is actually things are better now, memories deceive.
I've lived through 60 decades and I know for certain that things are better.

60 Decades???? Tez, you look wonderful for your age!

 

[Laplace_demon]

Well I love the 80s anyway but this seals it.

 

[Tez3]

Well I love the 80s anyway but this seals it.

I take it you weren't around then? I could give you a huge amount of reasons why the 80s weren't that good.