Need more advice in cane fight practice

lklawson

Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
5,029
Reaction score
1,650
Location
Huber Heights, OH
I am too old to join a class
Mule muffins! I've taught people in their late 70's.


also I don't know of anywhere that teaches sticks with two hands.
You can't find some place that teaches Hanbo or Jo? Or WWII Fairbairn stick "Combatives?" Look harder.

8-sequenceA.jpg

9-SEQUENCEb.jpg


So I pretty much using my experience in TKD/kickboxing I learn back in the days to guide me. I know stick fight with two hands is completely different from Katana sword fight,
Except when it isn't.


It's hard to learn timing if I don't have anyone to practice with. I asked my neighbor that is into Kung fu, but he doesn't want to do it. There is very few FMA school, I really don't want to learn any Chinese style ( even I am a Chinese) because I deem them too fancy and have no real life use. So I think my best bet is to learn how to hit as fast as I can and hit as hard as I can.

I believe in less is more, the simpler that better. So far, I only practice 4 strikes, two high and two low. Then thrusting (poking) with the tip of the cane from both sides. That's it. Just like I practice jab and reverse punch, simple front kicks, step kick to the knee and low round house kick to the leg. That's it. I only practice how to hit hard and move smoothly. None of those fancy blocking and fancy moves.

Hell, look at all those fancy moves on blocking and all then you look at the MMA and Boxing, they defend punching by simple head movement and parrying. You try to use those fancy defense, you'll get KO before you can even raise your hands. Why even spend one second learning those fancy stuffs. Hit hard, move away!!!

Makes me laugh when I saw those videos that taught using the hook of the cane to trap the arms, hook the neck and all those fancy moves. Total waste of time to even try those. Maybe good for in the movies.
Based on your vast experience stick fighting?

I wanted to let you know that I don't have any sort of Electrical Engineering background, never mind a degree, but I want to engineer, design, and build my own superior home sound system. I found a few yoo-toob videos that I didn't really understand, but I think I can figure it out. After all, how hard can it be?

Look, you don't know what does and does not work. Stop trying to guess and go get instruction.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
OP
A

Alan0354

Master Black Belt
Joined
Apr 29, 2021
Messages
1,439
Reaction score
404
You miss understood what I was saying. I was not saying don't carry your cane or don't train.... I was saying learn the local law, concerning carrying weapons. Laws around weapons are different, depending on where you are and they are particular. They have also sent people to jail, who did not understand the particulars of the law.
If you are law abiding citizen and established in life, you will be in trouble with the law if you get into a fight regardless. At the least is a civil suit. People can get away if they already have long wrap sheets and has nothing under their name and is judgement proofed. You read the law, everything is illegal unless you don't fight back. Even if it is legal, they can still try to get you. Look at the McCloskeys got into so much trouble just trying to defend their home IN their own property!!! You don't want to get into trouble, don't fight back unless you have nothing to lose.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
22,009
Reaction score
6,732
Historically speaking, frequently but not always. Usually a "shillelagh" ("bata") when represented as a walking stick was a knob-ended cane-length stick of oak, ash, hazel, or blackthorn. The knob was either the crook from a branch or the root ball from a sapling. However, some traditions refer to a symmetric stick with no knob.



Doyle's system is considered markedly different from the typical one-haned "shillelagh" systems it is said to be contemporary with. Even when those one-handed systems use two hands, it looked different from Doyle's "Uisce Beatha Bata Rince" (ims "Whisky Stick Dance").



Vigny's la Canne system is markedly different from both Doyle's system and from every historic "shillelagh" system I'm aware of, both in how the stick is held and the typical guard positions, and moving on from there to how strikes are performed. They're different.



Canne de Combat is, again, different from any of the above.

The systems are different. The sparring looks pretty similar.

If we were trying to condense mabye a few practical ideas. That is where I would be looking.
 
OP
A

Alan0354

Master Black Belt
Joined
Apr 29, 2021
Messages
1,439
Reaction score
404
I Love this post! And the passion that is clearly present in your work. 8086 and 8088 is as far back as I can go.

From what you describe, you are at more of the circuit level than I usually am.
In the '80's there were a number of Siemen's A/C output boards that commonly failed and were able to get the schematic from Siemen's. It was usually a simple board relay that failed due to current overload. As they failed, we would replace them with a higher current relay and the problem would not reoccur.

In a typical build, we are at the component level. Of course, this comes after the design phase which is where I am heavily involved. The majority of our projects start at the capital budget phase, which allows me to have a lot of control and autonomy in the project.

In years past, I have had 3 patents for intellectual property/utility which I never paid the renewal fees on and have passed the 20-year expiration. Crowing rights that I seldom bring up.

I see a Lot of RF and some mass spectrometry in measurement. Particularly in materials with varying density.
Analog is still living large in the industrial world, especially on older systems. Most scalar capable devices have gone digital for some time (VFD's . motion, etc...). I always consider it somewhat odd how few sound-specific devices I have ever worked with. I work with the effects of sound a good bit (sonar) however.
Actually a lot of my stuffs are system. One of my paper on the Fast RAE is a whole concept. We even got a phase II SBIR grant from the government to build the product. Two of the patents with the company are system level, in fact is more mechanically oriented than electronics. One is how to eliminate numerous mechanical springs, screws by using a very fancy pcb to form the whole dector. It's a like 32 layer pcb that combine RF and high voltage into one unit. The latest patent was a mechanical railing system in putting 6 different arms concentrate in a very small area with low noise, RF, high voltage all confined into a tiny space. I actually had to draw out my idea and have a mechanical engineer put it into Auto CAD to build them.

One thing, even I was the manager of EE, I layout all my boards. I cannot say enough how important is PCB layout in critical mixed signal RF, control circuitry. Particular with high voltage......I am talking about over 10KV. The war usually won or lost in the PCB layout.

One thing I regret not doing is designing SMPS. I let my engineer design all those. Now that I am alone, I really want to use switchers for my amps, but I have no one to do it for me. I might just stop and learn how to design one as a challenge one day. Those stupid big transformers and capacitors are big, heavy and expensive!!!
 
OP
A

Alan0354

Master Black Belt
Joined
Apr 29, 2021
Messages
1,439
Reaction score
404
The systems are different. The sparring looks pretty similar.

If we were trying to condense mabye a few practical ideas. That is where I would be looking.
I look at things very simple, if it is too complicate, it likely is!!! BUT, I am sure there are "magic" somewhere:D.

I practice the "jabbing", it's doable, but believe me, the forearm gets painful after a while. And you know I punch pole and all that already!!! Maybe because my cane is heavy. Or maybe I have not learn the magic yet.

It's funny, people have all the big talk, but when they fight, they all look the same. Things gets very simple. BUT what do I know, I am just a self taught beginner.
 

lklawson

Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
5,029
Reaction score
1,650
Location
Huber Heights, OH
If you are law abiding citizen and established in life, you will be in trouble with the law if you get into a fight regardless. At the least is a civil suit.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. The local authorities have a lot of discretion. Some may choose to charge but the evidence is that many do not.


People can get away if they already have long wrap sheets and has nothing under their name and is judgement proofed. You read the law, everything is illegal unless you don't fight back.
Again, local authorities may choose to charge but they may not. They do a cost-benefit analysis on. This may include things like "political benefits" but it may not.

Even if it is legal, they can still try to get you. Look at the McCloskeys got into so much trouble just trying to defend their home IN their own property!!! You don't want to get into trouble, don't fight back unless you have nothing to lose.
They were stupid.
 

lklawson

Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
5,029
Reaction score
1,650
Location
Huber Heights, OH
I look at things very simple, if it is too complicate, it likely is!!! BUT, I am sure there are "magic" somewhere:D.
You don't have the experience or training to know what is too complicated and what is not.


It's funny, people have all the big talk, but when they fight, they all look the same. Things gets very simple. BUT what do I know, I am just a self taught beginner.
Exactly. You don't know because you have no experience and no training. Would you trust a person who's been teaching himself Electrical Engineering for 3 months to lay out high-end stereo equipment? Would you expect someone who says he's only ever wrestled around with his brothers when he was a kid to place a local BJJ tourney? Would you expect someone who just used to put on gloves and mess around in the back yard with his friends when he was young to not get his block knocked off in a Boxing tournament?

Of course not.

You currently have the equivalent of watching Macho Man Randy Savage on TV and the expectation of being able to walk into a BJJ or Judo club and not be humiliated.

Go get training.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
22,009
Reaction score
6,732
I look at things very simple, if it is too complicate, it likely is!!! BUT, I am sure there are "magic" somewhere:D.

I practice the "jabbing", it's doable, but believe me, the forearm gets painful after a while. And you know I punch pole and all that already!!! Maybe because my cane is heavy. Or maybe I have not learn the magic yet.

It's funny, people have all the big talk, but when they fight, they all look the same. Things gets very simple. BUT what do I know, I am just a self taught beginner.

Yeah. Look if someone came along with demonstrative ability I would certainly listen to them. And if you can find a guy like that it would definitely be worth your time.

But the issue with stick fighting is there is a lot more hypothesis, academic studies and drills rather than just beating up on each other. So it is a hard resource to take from.
 

Rich Parsons

A Student of Martial Arts
Founding Member
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Oct 13, 2001
Messages
16,371
Reaction score
802
Location
Michigan
...

You currently have the equivalent of watching Macho Man Randy Savage on TV and the expectation of being able to walk into a BJJ or Judo club and not be humiliated.

Go get training.

To Support LKLawson,

I probably would get humiliated in either of those clubs as that not where my expertise lies, and I have experience and training in other areas and a little training in the areas for those two styles of clubs.
 
OP
A

Alan0354

Master Black Belt
Joined
Apr 29, 2021
Messages
1,439
Reaction score
404
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. The local authorities have a lot of discretion. Some may choose to charge but the evidence is that many do not.



Again, local authorities may choose to charge but they may not. They do a cost-benefit analysis on. This may include things like "political benefits" but it may not.


They were stupid.
How are they stupid? They stood in their own lawn trying to defend their home from invasion. It is legal in every state.

Problem is the local DA are all gunning for the law abiding citizens and determine to let the thugs go. Watch the news
 
OP
A

Alan0354

Master Black Belt
Joined
Apr 29, 2021
Messages
1,439
Reaction score
404
Yeah. Look if someone came along with demonstrative ability I would certainly listen to them. And if you can find a guy like that it would definitely be worth your time.

But the issue with stick fighting is there is a lot more hypothesis, academic studies and drills rather than just beating up on each other. So it is a hard resource to take from.
There's a huge disconnect between academic and real life. Just look at the stick fight on youtube...........Hell bare knuckle fights. Can you really tell the style? To me, the key is to cut the BS and sort out something that is really useful.

I still think bouncing off the forearm has some merit. We'll see.
 

lklawson

Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
5,029
Reaction score
1,650
Location
Huber Heights, OH
How are they stupid? They stood in their own lawn trying to defend their home from invasion. It is legal in every state.
[edit - in an attempt to keep with Staff directives, I'll try to keep the discussion out of the politics and try to keep it within how to not break laws and how to remain legal during self defense]

There is zero evidence that their home was in any danger of "invasion." They went out of their curtilage and on to the lawn to meet the supposed threat. Tactically, it is far better to bunker. Take a defensive position and improve it (sound familiar?). Then they verbally engaged the crowd, most of which did not trespass on their personal property. In most states, you lose Castle protections when you leave the curtilage area (which they should both have known, being lawyers). Both McCloskeys repeatedly pointed their guns at people who were not an immediate threat (which is pretty much illegal in every state). Parenthetically, she also had terrible trigger discipline. There are other examples of how they were stupid, but that should be enough.


Mark_and_Patricia_McCloskey.jpg


While most of what they did was not illegal under MO state law (excepting pointing their guns at people who were arguably not an immediate threat of deadly force), they were stupid.


Problem is the local DA are all gunning for the law abiding citizens and determine to let the thugs go.
[edit - removing political discussion]


Watch the news
Read some SD and use of force experts. Start with Andrew Branca and Mass Ayoob.
 
Last edited:
OP
A

Alan0354

Master Black Belt
Joined
Apr 29, 2021
Messages
1,439
Reaction score
404
[edit - in an attempt to keep with Staff directives, I'll try to keep the discussion out of the politics and try to keep it within how to not break laws and how to remain legal during self defense]

There is zero evidence that their home was in any danger of "invasion." They went out of their curtilage and on to the lawn to meet the supposed threat. Tactically, it is far better to bunker. Take a defensive position and improve it (sound familiar?). Then they verbally engaged the crowd, most of which did not trespass on their personal property. In most states, you lose Castle protections when you leave the curtilage area (which they should both have known, being lawyers). Both McCloskeys repeatedly pointed their guns at people who were not an immediate threat (which is pretty much illegal in every state). Parenthetically, she also had terrible trigger discipline. There are other examples of how they were stupid, but that should be enough.


View attachment 27924

While most of what they did was not illegal under MO state law (excepting pointing their guns at people who were arguably not an immediate threat of deadly force), they were stupid.



[edit - removing political discussion]



Read some SD and use of force experts. Start with Andrew Branca and Mass Ayoob.
Let's drop this, I don't want the thread to be closed.
 
OP
A

Alan0354

Master Black Belt
Joined
Apr 29, 2021
Messages
1,439
Reaction score
404
Yeah. Look if someone came along with demonstrative ability I would certainly listen to them. And if you can find a guy like that it would definitely be worth your time.

But the issue with stick fighting is there is a lot more hypothesis, academic studies and drills rather than just beating up on each other. So it is a hard resource to take from.
Also regarding of switching hands with crook cane. There is scientific reason why you cannot hit with the head of the crook reliably. See the drawings below:
Hitting with crook.jpg

Think of the long end of the cane is coming out of the paper(the round circle with a "X"). the circle with a "dot" is the head of the crook.

Fig.A shows the plane of the crook cane is perpendicular to the surface to be hit and light blue line is the direction of travel of the cane. You can see this can hit hard.

Problem is if you switch around from hand to hand, can you be sure you can keep the plane of the crook( red line) perpendicular to the surface?

Fig. B shows if the plane of the crook cane is NOT perpendicular to the surface. It shows the direction of the hit.

Fig. C shows the moment the head of the crook contact the surface, it will FORCE the cane to ROTATE as shown. This serves as brake or cushion to slow the cane down and reduce the force tremendously.

Yes, in theory, you can use the head of the crook to hit and it should work. BUT in real life, you'd be lucky if you can get the cane perpendicular 50% of the time(if that!!).

then you have to pay attention where the head of the crook is all the time. This is absolutely impractical in real life. This is where it's good on theory BUT FAIL in real life.


This is science. I gave all these a lot of thoughts. Of cause, unless there's magic some where.



Things should be very simple if it works. To me, the simplest way of hitting with a cane is to hit with the cane in a straight line!!! The shortest distance from point A to B is the straight line!!! You just need to get there fast and hit hard!!! How to do that is what matters. That's where Casting and body movement comes into play. That, will take time to practice. I expect to spend months on these two. Forget all the fancy stuffs. 4 strikes and 2 thrusting. The rest is how to close the distance to strike, then move out of the way after striking.

Yes, I agree, if someone can show me in real competition that they can use all those fancy stuffs, I am more than willing to be wrong and to learn. Just show me, don't talk.
 
Last edited:

wab25

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 22, 2017
Messages
1,132
Reaction score
948
If you are law abiding citizen and established in life, you will be in trouble with the law if you get into a fight regardless. At the least is a civil suit. People can get away if they already have long wrap sheets and has nothing under their name and is judgement proofed. You read the law, everything is illegal unless you don't fight back. Even if it is legal, they can still try to get you. Look at the McCloskeys got into so much trouble just trying to defend their home IN their own property!!! You don't want to get into trouble, don't fight back unless you have nothing to lose.
I'll do this once more and then drop it... I am not the one that could be facing jail time over this.

You are carrying a weapon. You have admitted it here and even claim you hope to intimidate people by not even using it as a cane when you walk. (you are hoping that they see you as armed, and move on to an easier victim)

I think you should know a few things about the local law where you are...
1. Legally, are you carrying a concealed weapon or are you carrying an open weapon?
2. Is the way you are carrying the weapon (concealed or open) a felony or misdemeanor?
3. Is the weapon you are carrying considered a lethal weapon? If so, when exactly are you allowed to respond with lethal force?

I believe that anyone wanting to carry a weapon should educate themselves on the laws local to the area that they will be carrying the weapon. Not knowing and not understanding the law is not a great defense in court.
 

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
11,968
Reaction score
4,491
But the issue with stick fighting is there is a lot more hypothesis, academic studies and drills rather than just beating up on each other. So it is a hard resource to take from.
If you understand the basics then you can easily weed out the unrealistic stuff. I find that most people who see a lot of "Fancy" in martial arts are either focusing on the wrong things or don't have the necessary knowledge to understand how it works.

If you don't know the basics or never sparred with a cane, stick, or staff then a lot of this stuff is going to look fancy and feel foreign. This is especially true if you don't get any formal training in it.

I remember there was a time where people thought my Jow Ga was fancy and unrealistic.

Oh by the way. I gym just opened up close to me with some heavy bags. I'm excited about that. I just got my booster and the gym is open 24/7. But that's another story.

Lets take a look at some realistic things here. There are 3 ranges (zones) of fighting.
  1. Long range
  2. Close range
  3. Grappling.

If you have a cane and you and I are sparring. I'm going to deny you your long range attacks. Most people only know "Beat someone with a stick" or "Swing a stick" Must of that knowledge that they have about that is in range #1. Long range.

So how do I deny you #1. Long range fighting ability. Easy. I sneak up on you and grab your cane. If I take your cane, then I know you can't hit me with it. You will either try to keep it or you'll let it go.

So my question to you is. What do you do?
1. Do you know how to free your cane from a grab?
2. Do you know how to use the cane when someone is tugging on it like that? It's possible. There are techniques that do just that.

You may have answers for these questions or you may not. It just depends on how you train and what you understand. There have been so many times where I hear "Fancy" and I think to myself "What's fancy about it?"
 
OP
A

Alan0354

Master Black Belt
Joined
Apr 29, 2021
Messages
1,439
Reaction score
404
I'll do this once more and then drop it... I am not the one that could be facing jail time over this.

You are carrying a weapon. You have admitted it here and even claim you hope to intimidate people by not even using it as a cane when you walk. (you are hoping that they see you as armed, and move on to an easier victim)

I think you should know a few things about the local law where you are...
1. Legally, are you carrying a concealed weapon or are you carrying an open weapon?
2. Is the way you are carrying the weapon (concealed or open) a felony or misdemeanor?
3. Is the weapon you are carrying considered a lethal weapon? If so, when exactly are you allowed to respond with lethal force?

I believe that anyone wanting to carry a weapon should educate themselves on the laws local to the area that they will be carrying the weapon. Not knowing and not understanding the law is not a great defense in court.
I check a lot on legality of cane, it is ABSOLUTELY legal as long as there is no sharp edge or pointed ends. It is VERY CLEAR.

Using it to defend yourself is a different story. If you hit someone with a cane, then you can be in trouble depend whether the DA want to make an example out of you. It is just that simple. You really need to watch the news.
 

lklawson

Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
5,029
Reaction score
1,650
Location
Huber Heights, OH
I check a lot on legality of cane, it is ABSOLUTELY legal as long as there is no sharp edge or pointed ends. It is VERY CLEAR.

Using it to defend yourself is a different story. If you hit someone with a cane, then you can be in trouble depend whether the DA want to make an example out of you. It is just that simple. You really need to watch the news.
Unless you fall a foul of the "going forth armed" principles that many states or local governments have. No, not joking.
 

Latest Discussions

Top