Need more advice in cane fight practice

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Alan0354

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If you understand the basics then you can easily weed out the unrealistic stuff. I find that most people who see a lot of "Fancy" in martial arts are either focusing on the wrong things or don't have the necessary knowledge to understand how it works.

If you don't know the basics or never sparred with a cane, stick, or staff then a lot of this stuff is going to look fancy and feel foreign. This is especially true if you don't get any formal training in it.

I remember there was a time where people thought my Jow Ga was fancy and unrealistic.

Oh by the way. I gym just opened up close to me with some heavy bags. I'm excited about that. I just got my booster and the gym is open 24/7. But that's another story.

Lets take a look at some realistic things here. There are 3 ranges (zones) of fighting.
  1. Long range
  2. Close range
  3. Grappling.

If you have a cane and you and I are sparring. I'm going to deny you your long range attacks. Most people only know "Beat someone with a stick" or "Swing a stick" Must of that knowledge that they have about that is in range #1. Long range.

So how do I deny you #1. Long range fighting ability. Easy. I sneak up on you and grab your cane. If I take your cane, then I know you can't hit me with it. You will either try to keep it or you'll let it go.

So my question to you is. What do you do?
1. Do you know how to free your cane from a grab?
2. Do you know how to use the cane when someone is tugging on it like that? It's possible. There are techniques that do just that.

You may have answers for these questions or you may not. It just depends on how you train and what you understand. There have been so many times where I hear "Fancy" and I think to myself "What's fancy about it?"
Don't mean to be disrespectful, You did give me a few good advice like going slow, the videos on full contact stick fights where the grappler rush and take the guy to the ground. I might not know stick fight, but I do have a few years experience in MA and I watch enough videos and sparred enough to know what is fancy vs what works.

All the fancy stuffs, it was only Lamont Glass that talked about Casting, Tony Dismukes actually talked about body mechanics. I cannot help but to laugh at all the fancy stuffs. Casting and body mechanics are what I consider important. You can laugh at it, I've been around. In MA, I only practice how to punch with body mechanics, how to hit hard, hit as fast as possible, how to close the distance and how to move away from harm's way.

You linked some good videos, but I watched the videos you linked, but I will never even want to learn this:

Sorry. How hard can he hit, all the turning around, switching the ends back and fore. It's just not me, I honestly never even watch to the end. Show me a video that this work in real fight, I'll take a second look. I mean actually competition or fight.

Again, you are one of the few here I respect, I think about this a long time before I respond this.
 
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lklawson

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Let's stop arguing with me, I don't agree with anything you said. Let's just drop it.
I know you don't agree. And your disagreement is based from a position of ignorance and inexperience.

I would wish you good luck, but at this point I'm not sure that even luck would be able to pull you through.
 
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Alan0354

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I cannot help to post this video again. I consider this is a very good stick fight(not full contact with fist and grappling). Look at how simple their moves are. How amazing the footwork. I can't help watching this over and over and try to learn. There are a lot to be learned in this video. NOTHING FANCY. No fancy blocking, trapping, turn around, switching hands. Just good.
 
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Alan0354

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I know you don't agree. And your disagreement is based from a position of ignorance and inexperience.

I would wish you good luck, but at this point I'm not sure that even luck would be able to pull you through.
You don't have to be insulting. I just do not agree with a single thing you said. show me your competition video what you said, or at least video of real fight(at least full speed sparring ). Don't just talk. Everyone has a month, it's the action that means anything.
 

lklawson

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You don't have to be insulting. I just do not agree with a single thing you said. show me your competition video what you said, or at least video of real fight(at least full speed sparring ). Don't just talk. Everyone has a month, it's the action that means anything.
Come visit me. I'll teach you. Won't even charge you.
 

JowGaWolf

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Sorry. How hard can he hit, all the turning around, switching the ends back and fore.
I don't know how hard he can hit. I only know how hard I can hit doing the same techniques.

As for my ability I can hit hard enough to break bone using some of those strikes. The heavier the cane the more damage my swings will create. But the reality about that Jow Ga Cane video is that not all of those are strikes. Some are counters to stick grabs, while others are grappling technique for when someone grabs part of the body.

The spin that you think is fancy is a bait. It's no different than how spinning backfist, a spinning back kick, a spinning side kick catches people off guard. There is more than enough proof of people getting KOed in MMA from a technique that spins.
 

JowGaWolf

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Look at how simple their moves are. How amazing the footwork. I can't help watching this over and over and try to learn. There are a lot to be learned in this video. NOTHING FANCY. No fancy blocking, trapping, turn around, switching hands. Just good.
There is nothing simple about their moves. Give it a try.
 
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Alan0354

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There is nothing simple about their moves. Give it a try.
They sure don't have fancy moves like switching hands, moving hands up and down the stick, turn around and do fancy pretty moves. Their footwork is very good, the strikes are simple. He even commented he parry the stick with his hand, NOT any fancy moves. That's how real fights are. Forget baiting, just strike and move.

That video is what I am watching over and over and learn.
 
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Alan0354

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I don't know how hard he can hit. I only know how hard I can hit doing the same techniques.

As for my ability I can hit hard enough to break bone using some of those strikes. The heavier the cane the more damage my swings will create. But the reality about that Jow Ga Cane video is that not all of those are strikes. Some are counters to stick grabs, while others are grappling technique for when someone grabs part of the body.

The spin that you think is fancy is a bait. It's no different than how spinning backfist, a spinning back kick, a spinning side kick catches people off guard. There is more than enough proof of people getting KOed in MMA from a technique that spins.
I know how hard Lamont Glass can hit by his Casting. Straight forward, nothing fancy. BUT, the devil is in the detail. That, I spent months already. Now the body mechanics. It's going to take me time to practice. I can say now I can increase the length of the cane(weight) and/or add the rubber foot to add weight. The few days I practice, I can feel the difference. ALL very straight forward strike, but to me, that's the secret of a good strike. To me, it's the combining of body, legs and arms to generate the force that is the key.

Speaking of MMA, you see anything particular fancy moves until lately when they are getting so good and so expert. For the longest time, they are just kick boxing together with ground work. No fancy moves. You think anyone of us can even touch the level they are at? that we can afford to waste time in useless fancy moves? You really think for normal people can use block, traps and all that in real fights. We'll be good if we can use simple head movement, parrying the attack to our head already.

I'd be the first to say I am not that talent, I don't work as hard as them. All I can think of is how to close the distance, put in good strikes, then get out of his hitting range and live to try again. I don't do spinning back anything. I would be very very happy if I can close the distance fast, stick a few solid punches or front kick and get out. Yes, now you start seeing all the spinning kicks and punches in UFC......After years of improvement and hard training. Are we that good? Why not just stick with the basic and stay alive first?

If I am 40 years younger, stronger, and more importantly, have more talent and time, I might consider doing more of the fancy work. For now and for most amateurs like most of us, just stay simple.
 
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JowGaWolf

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hey sure don't have fancy moves like switching hands,
Switching hands isn't fancy. You just think it is. If you are holding a stick in your right hand and I break that right hand, do you not pick up the stick with your left hand? Or do you leave the stick on the ground because you don't want to switch?

If I have a knife in one hand that you manage to stop from stabbing you and I drop the knife into my free hand and stab you with my left hand. Then is that fancy?

Do you only punch with your right hand? Or do you switch hands to punch with your left as well?

Sliding hands isn't fancy either. Baseball players do it all the the time when they bunt. Some fishermen do it depending on the size of the fish on the line. Lacrosse players do it all the time. I'm sure hockey players do it all the time too. Is that fancy too?

Most people who fight with spear slide their hands. They also switch hands too. No different than fighting with power hand forward or power hand back.
He even commented he parry the stick with his hand, NOT any fancy moves. That's how real fights are. Forget baiting, just strike and move.
Yep "Real fights" I would say that's debatable. I've seen more MMA and BJJ bait people for a take down in a street fight than I've seen people parry a stick in a street fight or parry a punch in a street fight.

Some of the things that you think is fancy really isn't.
 

JowGaWolf

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ALL very straight forward strike, but to me, that's the secret of a good strike. To me, it's the combining of body, legs and arms to generate the force that is the key.
Same thing I've heard from many TMA practitioners.

Speaking of MMA, you see anything particular fancy moves until lately when they are getting so good and so expert. For the longest time, they are just kick boxing together with ground work. No fancy moves. You think anyone of us can even touch the level they are at? that we can afford to waste time in useless fancy moves?
Are the moves Fancy and Useless or Fancy and Useful, but only MMA can do it? Can it really be both? Or is it the limitations of the person that determines if a technique can be done?

You really think for normal people can use block, traps and all that in real fights.
Yes I think normal people who do a lot of serious training and conditioning can do these things.

BJJ has a lot of amazing things and a lot of people who train BJJ seriously can do those things. A lot of them are normal people. Now if you are talking about "normal people who don't train" then no. Normal people who don't train can't do the same thing because they don't know the same thing nor train the same thing that BJJ practitioners train. But just because the people who don't train can't do it, doesn't make BJJ fancy. But in my eyes, BJJ does a lot of things that I think are fancy, but then again I don't train BJJ so that's why it looks that way to me.
 

JowGaWolf

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If I am 40 years younger, stronger, and more importantly, have more talent and time, I might consider doing more of the fancy work. For now and for most amateurs like most of us, just stay simple.
Footwork isn't simple. Ask @Ivan how much hard work he had to put into his "simple footwork" Many of us have watched him develop over the last few years and he's still working on it. And the truth is, he'll always be working on it. Just like everyone else.

If you want to play tennis then you can't ignore the footwork.
If you want to play basketball then you can't ignore the footwork
If you want to dance, then you can't ignore the footwork.

Fighting and self-defense is no different unless you no longer have the use of your legs or feet.
 
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Alan0354

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Same thing I've heard from many TMA practitioners.


Are the moves Fancy and Useless or Fancy and Useful, but only MMA can do it? Can it really be both? Or is it the limitations of the person that determines if a technique can be done?


Yes I think normal people who do a lot of serious training and conditioning can do these things.

BJJ has a lot of amazing things and a lot of people who train BJJ seriously can do those things. A lot of them are normal people. Now if you are talking about "normal people who don't train" then no. Normal people who don't train can't do the same thing because they don't know the same thing nor train the same thing that BJJ practitioners train. But just because the people who don't train can't do it, doesn't make BJJ fancy. But in my eyes, BJJ does a lot of things that I think are fancy, but then again I don't train BJJ so that's why it looks that way to me.
You are changing the subject, this is grappling, that's pretty much their basic moves. I am talking about in the striking, all the fancy blocking, all the moves and all that are useless. None of the spinning, baiting can get you out of the grappler, just looks stupider.

No offense, I grew up in Hong Kong where there are kung fu everywhere, I've seen enough of those so called master and showing all the useless fancy stuffs, all the kung fu collapsed in the first few UFC............But that's off the subject.

Back to the cane. I agree, if I really want to improve, I should learn BJJ so I don't have to worry about being grabbed using the cane. BUT that is totally different from all the fancy moves that is useless, baiting, spinning, changing hands and all that. I stay with my 4 strikes and 2 thrust. I just want to do it faster and hit harder.
 
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Alan0354

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Footwork isn't simple. Ask @Ivan how much hard work he had to put into his "simple footwork" Many of us have watched him develop over the last few years and he's still working on it. And the truth is, he'll always be working on it. Just like everyone else.

If you want to play tennis then you can't ignore the footwork.
If you want to play basketball then you can't ignore the footwork
If you want to dance, then you can't ignore the footwork.

Fighting and self-defense is no different unless you no longer have the use of your legs or feet.
AGREE, that's what is important. Look at the footwork of the video I provided, how they move in and out. They don't count on blocking, counter or any of the fancy moves, their footwork got them out of trouble most of the time.

Yes, that's where I am spending a lot of time. It's one thing using Casting and body movement to hit hard, it's another thing of getting into position to deliver the strike. I did studied quite a few FMA videos on footwork and try to incorporate into what I feel comfortable.

I even have a thread asking about footwork, nobody join in!!! It is that important to me.

Remember I was talking about walking around swinging in deep horse stance? I am still practicing at least 5 minutes 5 days a week just for the hell of it even though it's absolutely useless in real fight............In fact, it really screwed me up when I taped the first two videos in this thread. I deleted those two videos already, that did not represent me, it was a mistake. I cannot turn my body with that deep stand and got into bad habit after a while.

Why do you think I said I practice a few months of Casting, it's not the Casting alone, that would be really slow to have to practice Casting for a few months. It's how to do casting with the footwork to get to the right position to strike and move out after the strike. I might not be good at it, but I am sure as hell trying and keep practicing. This to me, is the key. Move in, strike, move out.

It would be so easy to just stand there left foot forward and do casting and use the whole body to swing the cane. It's a completely different thing to move around and at the same time casting and use the whole body. I really had to start in slow motion like you advice before. Start slow, make sure doing it right before adding speed.

This, I think it takes time, it's not like you learn something and you got it. It's like kick boxing, it takes years to get good even though you can learn all the basics in a month or two. It's Practice practice and practice.


I post this thread to ask people what I do wrong in my moves, what I should concentrate on. I am not asking about all the fancy moves. I feel I got what I want. I did learn from your video IT'S A BAD IDEA TO STRAP THE CANE TO MY WRIST, I got rid of the strap. I learn how to practice body movement from Tony Dismukes. I learned NOT to let my elbows fly out so it's harder for grappler to rush and take me down. I learn I should NOT use deeper horse stance to move around in real life, keep it in practice only. I do feel I learn a lot. Only thing left is for me to practice until I am better and make another video so people can point out things. I have you to point out a few things for me also. That I thank you.

You might not think I listen, but I pay a lot of attention and I pick out things that is important to me.
 
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drop bear

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I know how hard Lamont Glass can hit by his Casting. Straight forward, nothing fancy. BUT, the devil is in the detail. That, I spent months already. Now the body mechanics. It's going to take me time to practice. I can say now I can increase the length of the cane(weight) and/or add the rubber foot to add weight. The few days I practice, I can feel the difference. ALL very straight forward strike, but to me, that's the secret of a good strike. To me, it's the combining of body, legs and arms to generate the force that is the key.

Speaking of MMA, you see anything particular fancy moves until lately when they are getting so good and so expert. For the longest time, they are just kick boxing together with ground work. No fancy moves. You think anyone of us can even touch the level they are at? that we can afford to waste time in useless fancy moves? You really think for normal people can use block, traps and all that in real fights. We'll be good if we can use simple head movement, parrying the attack to our head already.

I'd be the first to say I am not that talent, I don't work as hard as them. All I can think of is how to close the distance, put in good strikes, then get out of his hitting range and live to try again. I don't do spinning back anything. I would be very very happy if I can close the distance fast, stick a few solid punches or front kick and get out. Yes, now you start seeing all the spinning kicks and punches in UFC......After years of improvement and hard training. Are we that good? Why not just stick with the basic and stay alive first?

If I am 40 years younger, stronger, and more importantly, have more talent and time, I might consider doing more of the fancy work. For now and for most amateurs like most of us, just stay simple.

I think you are going to get semanticsed to death with the fancy idea. And Mabye high percentage is what you are looking for.

Which for self defense kind of is the way to go.

The complexity is being able to create an environment where your simple technique works. And that is what separates good fighters from poor ones.

And you probably need to develop that through sparring.

And the biggest problem with learning stick is there isn't as many super cagey stick guys out there.

 
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Alan0354

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I think you are going to get semanticsed to death with the fancy idea. And Mabye high percentage is what you are looking for.

Which for self defense kind of is the way to go.

The complexity is being able to create an environment where your simple technique works. And that is what separates good fighters from poor ones.

And you probably need to develop that through sparring.

And the biggest problem with learning stick is there isn't as many super cagey stick guys out there.

Yeh, sparring is the best way to gain experience. Problem is who? If I join a school, I would have to follow their style which is single hand. Also, I am getting too old to go taking all the abuse!!! That's the reason I concentrate on a few simple strike. It is not exactly a walk in the park for me. My shoulder hurts, my elbow hurts, my back.......... It's easy if I am young, at this age, I have to pick my battle. Not trying to get sympathy, it's like I have to do 60 pushups, 10lbs dumbbell lateral raise just to warm up the shoulder and elbow before I can practice. Also have to warm up the back. It's very time consuming everyday. If I don't do that, I would injure myself. There's nothing good getting old. I practice in the morning and at night, warm up twice, that's over 100 pushups and dumbbells a day just to warmup!!! And that's not counted as weight training for me. That's another long exercise.

Yes, I kept talking about Casting and body motion, I really don't mean just standing there and do it. That would be too easy. I can learn and do it right in one day. The DIFFICULT part is how to combine with the footwork and still do Casting with body motion to add the force. It is NOT easy. I expect to take months to really get good at it.

BTW, I actually prefer watching this video than those fancy ones. At least they are doing it!!!
 
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dvcochran

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Actually a lot of my stuffs are system. One of my paper on the Fast RAE is a whole concept. We even got a phase II SBIR grant from the government to build the product. Two of the patents with the company are system level, in fact is more mechanically oriented than electronics. One is how to eliminate numerous mechanical sSprings, screws by using a very fancy pcb to form the whole dector. It's a like 32 layer pcb that combine RF and high voltage into one unit. The latest patent was a mechanical railing system in putting 6 different arms concentrate in a very small area with low noise, RF, high voltage all confined into a tiny space. I actually had to draw out my idea and have a mechanical engineer put it into Auto CAD to build them.

One thing, even I was the manager of EE, I layout all my boards. I cannot say enough how important is PCB layout in critical mixed signal RF, control circuitry. Particular with high voltage......I am talking about over 10KV. The war usually won or lost in the PCB layout.

One thing I regret not doing is designing SMPS. I let my engineer design all those. Now that I am alone, I really want to use switchers for my amps, but I have no one to do it for me. I might just stop and learn how to design one as a challenge one day. Those stupid big transformers and capacitors are big, heavy and expensive!!!
Kudos on the Phase II grant. They are not easy to get I hear.

I never got super deep in to working at the circuit board level. While I understand the logic, it is usually very difficult to acquire manufacturer schematics and even more difficult to disassemble and trace a board. The economics of it force a person to troubleshoot to a board level failure and make a determination there. It is much, much cheaper to replace a board (entire component) in most cases.

I learned how so much of acquiring a patent is in the wording and subsequent explanation of the product/process.

I am not familiar with your application but switching power supplies are very common as a commodity. What is the load requirement (watts/current)? Do you need to vary the output type (A to D or D to A), voltage, or current?
 
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