Need more advice in cane fight practice

Alan0354

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Hi, it's been 5 months since my last videos asking for advice. I have been practicing and I just record two new videos. I am disappointed in what I see in the video, I need advice what to concentrate on.

I have been practicing on fighting in more confined space. Learning from Lamont Glass on casting and watched video on some footwork. I still feel my movement is too slow. Before, I swing the full arc like what are showing in a lot of escrima instruction video from one shoulder swinging a full arc and stop at the opposite shoulder. That takes a lot of space. In demonstration or competition where you have a whole big space with nothing in the way, it's not a problem. But in self defense situation when it can be in the restaurant with people, table and chairs in the way, you really cannot swing a big arc. So I practice casting where I don't swing wide and STOP right pass the hitting point. BUT, it's much harder to generate speed.

The first video is just like the former ones:

The second video is swinging in confined space. I did it in the entry way of the house, using the door posts as target, so it's like 6 targets in a small confined space. Took me a while to get the control not to hit anything:

Please advice how to improve and what I should work on.

Thanks
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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There's something that I don't recall in any of your videos-it's always possible I missed it or am just forgetting. But I don't think I've seen you practicing either A) blocking with your cane, B) the initial 'draw', where you start from just holding it to grabbing it with both hands and swinging. There are a couple training methods for both, that might help you out when you're ready to change your direction a bit.

Something else that occurred to me as I was writing that-I know in the past you've focused on making sure that you can hold onto the cane, and your goal is to make sure you don't let go of it. But it may be worth thinking about what you will do if you do let go (either from dropping it, rain making your hands slippery for instance, or someone actively disarming you/hitting your hand so you drop it), and practicing whatever your recovery will be.
 
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Alan0354

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There's something that I don't recall in any of your videos-it's always possible I missed it or am just forgetting. But I don't think I've seen you practicing either A) blocking with your cane, B) the initial 'draw', where you start from just holding it to grabbing it with both hands and swinging. There are a couple training methods for both, that might help you out when you're ready to change your direction a bit.

Something else that occurred to me as I was writing that-I know in the past you've focused on making sure that you can hold onto the cane, and your goal is to make sure you don't let go of it. But it may be worth thinking about what you will do if you do let go (either from dropping it, rain making your hands slippery for instance, or someone actively disarming you/hitting your hand so you drop it), and practicing whatever your recovery will be.
Thanks for the reply. I'd have to tape the innitial draw again. As for blocking, I am practicing alone, it's hard to practice blocking. So I just not practice at all and concentrate on striking and moving away after the strike.

As for securing the cane, if you watch in slow motion, you'll see I have a rope loop around my left wrist so the cane will not fly off. Actually I practice a lot on swinging to hit a deflated and weighted speed bag. I aim at the bottom tip to make to harder to hit and miss a lot. This is to train to hold onto the cane when I miss. I have to make another video on hitting the heavy bag, the car is in the way today, I have to find a day my big boss drives out to tape the video of hitting the bag in the garage.

Here is a still picture of the rope around my wrist:
Rope around wrist.jpg


I am not using a rubber foot so it's hard for the opponent to hold onto the cane and pull it away from me.
 
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Tony Dismukes

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A couple of thoughts just from a quick glance

Youre powering your strikes almost entirely from your arms. If you practice engaging the large muscles in your back, core, hips, and legs to drive the cane you will get more power, more speed, and more control.

You also have a very close grip on the cane with your two hands. If you spread your hands a little further apart you will get better leverage and better control. I personally like about a fists distance between my two hands, but experiment and find what works best for you.

One reason you feel like you lack speed is that you are relying on your arm strength to stop the cane as well as swing it. When you throw these casting style strikes I see you are actually applying the brakes early with your arms in an effort to make the cane stop at the desired point. Once you learn to use your body to control the cane then you wont have to apply the brakes so early and slow yourself down.
 

dvcochran

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The one thing that really jumps out to me is your center of balance. It appears you are off center, forward biased almost all the time. This makes you ripe for someone to simply grab the cane/weapon, pull it toward themself, and knock you off your base. Especially since your hands are busy holding the weapon this is a big problem.
 

JowGaWolf

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One reason you feel like you lack speed is that you are relying on your arm strength to stop the cane as well as swing it. When you throw these casting style strikes I see you are actually applying the brakes early with your arms in an effort to make the cane stop at the desired point. Once you learn to use your body to control the cane then you wont have to apply the brakes so early and slow yourself down.
It may be due to the weight of the cane. I know heavier weapons tend to naturally flow and lighter weapons tend to start and stop.

Something else that occurred to me as I was writing that-I know in the past you've focused on making sure that you can hold onto the cane, and your goal is to make sure you don't let go of it.
I took your perspective and went and looked at the video again. This time instead of just thinking of advice I can give about the swing. I took a "larger view." when I did, I found myself thinking of the same things I train for staff. Here's what went through my mind.

Question: How would I attack Alan if he was swinging a cane?

Analysis: Rush him. After rushing him it wouldn't matter if he held onto the cane. As long as that cane is bound to his hand he's not going to be able to defend with that hand once that cane get's tangled in the scuffle. His inability to let go of the cane provides me with some opportunity. Alan not being able to slide the hands along the cane also opens some opportunities for me. I'm reminded of swords and machetes. We don't see them being bound to the wrist with rope and leather for a reason. On the most basic level, say the bound hand gets injured. you couldn't switch to the weapon to the good hand.

Swings to the head with a blunted weapon can be dulled by covering my head as I rush in. With a bladed weapons the swings would be critical, with a blunted weapon I can take a hit so long as I'm not on the power end of the swing. We have often seen this happen to people who spar in dog brothers. It's also the thing that I'm most sensitive to when training staff. "What if they rush me" is an event that I have to prepare for with the staff and I'm seeing some of the same weaknesses with this cane

With my staff I train about 80% close range staff fighting and 20% long range all because I know the likely hood of being rushed is a real one. This actually keep me from being worried about my staff being taken from me.

Answer: I would bait the swing and not the poke. Give him the target he wants if he's not willing to take it on his own. Then close the distance. The closer in I am the less he'll be able to do with that cane. Especially because the cane is secure to his wrist. He would have trouble with pulling the cane through.


Thoughts on training: I think at this point he should be mixing it up with strikes and attacks. Drill is one thing but usable combinations is another. I would train a few combinations based on situations.
1. Keeping distance
2. Engaging long range
3. Engaging close range.
4. Protect weapon counters "what if someone tries to take the cane away."
 

JowGaWolf

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Hi, it's been 5 months since my last videos asking for advice. I have been practicing and I just record two new videos. I am disappointed in what I see in the video, I need advice what to concentrate on.

I have been practicing on fighting in more confined space. Learning from Lamont Glass on casting and watched video on some footwork. I still feel my movement is too slow. Before, I swing the full arc like what are showing in a lot of escrima instruction video from one shoulder swinging a full arc and stop at the opposite shoulder. That takes a lot of space. In demonstration or competition where you have a whole big space with nothing in the way, it's not a problem. But in self defense situation when it can be in the restaurant with people, table and chairs in the way, you really cannot swing a big arc. So I practice casting where I don't swing wide and STOP right pass the hitting point. BUT, it's much harder to generate speed.

The first video is just like the former ones:

The second video is swinging in confined space. I did it in the entry way of the house, using the door posts as target, so it's like 6 targets in a small confined space. Took me a while to get the control not to hit anything:

Please advice how to improve and what I should work on.

Thanks
I the only that came to mind when I originally watched this is that your breathing seems to be off. It's like you are holding your breath during the strikes.
 

Oily Dragon

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One strike to the head with any moderately heavy stick can lead to brain inury or death. We talked about this earlier. 20 oz is more than enough. The Dog Brothers train with head protection for a reason.

Its all fun and games until your friend's brains get scrambled.

I would never personally rush a crazy man swinging a cane, but that's just me.
 

Holmejr

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One strike to the head with any moderately heavy stick can lead to brain inury or death. We talked about this earlier. 20 oz is more than enough. The Dog Brothers train with head protection for a reason.

Its all fun and games until your friend's brains get scrambled.

I would never personally rush a crazy man swinging a cane, but that's just me.
Sure you would. If combat was eminent and i couldnt back up, run away, I would attempt to close in, hopefully to negate being hit full force. Unless he is specifically trained, he would probably have no answer for the onslaught. Probably. We practice this scenario as honestly as we can. It definitely awakens your senses
 
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Dirty Dog

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One strike to the head with any moderately heavy stick can lead to brain inury or death.
Can. Probably won't. Especially if you partially block/deflect/move with the swing.
I would never personally rush a crazy man swinging a cane, but that's just me.
You should... the best way to reduce or negate the damage of a blunt weapon of this sort is to get inside it's arc.
 

Oily Dragon

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Can. Probably won't. Especially if you partially block/deflect/move with the swing.

You should... the best way to reduce or negate the damage of a blunt weapon of this sort is to get inside it's arc.
Isn't that the second best way?
 
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Alan0354

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Thanks guys for the responses, I have been very busy because of Christmas get together. Grand daughter is still staying with us. I will answer in more detail later.

1) I did read the first response. I do notice I don't use my shoulder to swing. There are a lot of stuffs involve particular mixing in the footwork, I lost track of my shoulders. I have been practicing using my shoulder right now. It is hard to use wider steps and turn the shoulder when strike.

2) I notice myself, I did not hold the cane close to my body enough still, I need to make sure I pull the cane back close to my body whenever I am not striking. This will give me more distant for the hand to travel before hitting the opponent to gather more speed.

3) You guys talk about rushing me. I have been practicing using the Wing Chun step kick to the knee if someone grab my cane. I also practice kicking between the legs of the opponent in this situation. I was concentrating on striking and poking, I did not show that move. I want to keep the video to about 30sec.

Also, I make my first strike to the knee instead to the head. On top of I try not to kill the person, it is much harder to grab the cane when I strike low. The idea is strike low, the natural response is he tries to reach down, then the second strike is high while his hands are trying to reach down for the cane.

4) As for the strap around the wrist, it's a double edge sword. I was just thinking that I am not exactly weak, still doing a lot of weight training. What me you think I cannot win over if they try to pull my cane away? I have to really think about which is more important, protecting the cane or being grabbed.

I'll respond in more detail later.

You guys talk a lot about rushing me, what is the best way to use the cane then? I don't think I am doing anything that other people don't do.

Thanks
 
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Rich Parsons

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A couple of thoughts just from a quick glance

Youre powering your strikes almost entirely from your arms. If you practice engaging the large muscles in your back, core, hips, and legs to drive the cane you will get more power, more speed, and more control.

You also have a very close grip on the cane with your two hands. If you spread your hands a little further apart you will get better leverage and better control. I personally like about a fists distance between my two hands, but experiment and find what works best for you.

One reason you feel like you lack speed is that you are relying on your arm strength to stop the cane as well as swing it. When you throw these casting style strikes I see you are actually applying the brakes early with your arms in an effort to make the cane stop at the desired point. Once you learn to use your body to control the cane then you wont have to apply the brakes so early and slow yourself down.
Alan,

The Casting is great technique to learn and works.
For me, I have found that it works best against an object - e.g. Heavy Bag.

The arms is where all your work is coming from so it will be tiring and seem slow and may not look correctly to you in your videos.

Getting the body (Shoulders and Hips) into the equation is the next step. Yes, this is a process and sometimes you learn something to help with a concept and body motion and then have to move past the rest to move to the next step. That is not the case here, just pointing it out for the future.

Take the advice a slight larger distance start with about an inch more between the hands.
This next will be slow training until you get it and then it can be sped up.

Start in the air, keep your primary hand at about 90 degreed from forearm to cane.
pick your target, - Door or corner - pick something you don't want to hit and damage, and then slowly try to hit the object but stop about 5 inches (~13 cm) short and later 3 (~8 cm) and then maybe even 1 inch (2 to 3 cm).

Now to get the target (tip of the cane) close to the target, you will need to move your body. So try not to move your shoulders. Stick an empty glass case (soft) or deck of cars under your primary arm pit and this will help you keep your elbows in and not rely upon shoulders.
This will then get you to move your torso. The easiest way to begin this, is to place your weight on the side where the stick is coming from. The weight can be 51-99 % what ever is comfortable and makes sense for distance to target and how far you have to rotate.
The weight bearing knee will be bent.
The hips will rotate into / with the strike.
Yes it will seem like one is chopping with an axe.

Why is this a good next step?
Simple Force equals Mass times Acceleration. Once you get your torso and hips into the moving equation the force is increase.
example: 75 kg man swings with just their arms at 5 kg (Easy math not real) and they accelerate at factor 2 then force would be 10
If one then adds in their torso and get say 25 kg of movement with the same factor of 2 for acceleration this provides a value of 50 .
That means one would have to move at the acceleration rate of 10 to get the same results for force.

*** To Math/Physics/Engineers/PT/Doctors et al: Yes, I know there are lots of partial losses and vectors and the absolute is not as great as this example, yet the point is made clear I hope.

Once you get your control down slowly, move to the bag and go slowly there as well.
After the new target is comfortable then change the stopping point to be an inch or two (2 - 6 cm) inside the bag.
Yes the cane will "Stick" to the target. This is part of the training to make sure your weight is moving.

Then shift your weight to the other side and try again from the other side.

Now that this is comfortable, break the 90 degree angle and cast at the end of the strike with the bag.
When practicing without a bag as the target, keep the 90 Degrees to help with the body absorbing the force as it stops versus the wrist and shoulders.

Good Luck :)
 
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JowGaWolf

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One strike to the head with any moderately heavy stick can lead to brain inury or death. We talked about this earlier. 20 oz is more than enough. The Dog Brothers train with head protection for a reason.

Its all fun and games until your friend's brains get scrambled.

I would never personally rush a crazy man swinging a cane, but that's just me.
It's just the reality of the weakness. That would come with a stick or cane. If Alan's going to rely on that cane for self-defense then he should at least know where it's weak.


cccccc

 

JowGaWolf

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Can. Probably won't. Especially if you partially block/deflect/move with the swing.

You should... the best way to reduce or negate the damage of a blunt weapon of this sort is to get inside it's arc.
It's the end of a bat that hits the home run. Don't hang out at the end of the bat when it swings lol.
 

JowGaWolf

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3) You guys talk about rushing me. I have been practicing using the Wing Chun step kick to the knee if someone grab my cane. I also practice kicking between the legs of the opponent in this situation. I was concentrating on striking and poking, I did not show that move. I want to keep the video to about 30sec.

Also, I make my first strike to the knee instead to the head. On top of I try not to kill the person, it is much harder to grab the cane when I strike low. The idea is strike low, the natural response is he tries to reach down, then the second strike is high while his hands are trying to reach down for the cane.
Kicks to the knee tend to work when someone's slowly coming in. I have yet to see someone including myself use one when someone rushes in. The problem with kick to the knee is that there's not much room for adjusting the kick. If you kick to soon then you'll find yourself in a grappling nightmare. If you kick too late then your kick will be jammed which is the normal outcome for such a kick. There is also the risk of missing the kick. The cost of not landing a kick is less when the person isn't rushing.

Strikes to the knee. This works well for someone for when your opponent isn't active but when they are rushing in. You won't have a clean shot on a moving knee. That gap can be closed much faster than you expect. If you have to pull back for your swing to hit, then you probably won't beat the rush. This is the same mistake that people make when they try to punch or kick someone rushing in.
 

Tony Dismukes

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You guys talk a lot about rushing me, what is the best way to use the cane then?
If you are in an open space with plenty of room to move, then backing up (using angles, not straight back) while throwing continuous power shots is the way to go. Most people can take at least one good shot or a few light ones but if they run into 3 or 4 or 5 power shots while rushing in then they tend to run out of steam.

If you don't have room to move, then you're going to need at least the fundamentals of grappling clinchwork once they get in.

If you have at least a little room to move, then cutting an angle can give you a chance to shuck off your attacker's clinch or at least land an extra shot on their way in. It takes more practice to pull that off at close quarters though.
 

JowGaWolf

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You guys talk a lot about rushing me, what is the best way to use the cane then? I don't think I am doing anything that other people don't do.
A better sentence would be.

I think I'm doing things that other people don't do.. Most people try to strike their way out of someone rushing in, and they usually end up on their back, getting their face pounded. There are short range fighting techniques for sticks and canes that doesn't involve swinging. Most follow the same mechanics as a staff. You are just using something shorter. So some options won't be there but new ones will be available.

There are 2 main concerns you'll be faced with:
1. Someone grabs you. - You'll need a partner for this (not a good time for this type of training.
2. Someone grabs the cane i- n an effort to take it away from you.. (you train this solo)

I'll have to find some legit stick grappling. I ran into a bunch of stuff that was too complicated. I prefer some simple stuff. I had some posted on video one. With me training with my son. It was only one technique but it was easy.

Notice 13:28 that it's the poke that stops the charge and not the slaps with the stick.
 

Dirty Dog

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Isn't that the second best way?
No. Assuming you have to fight them unarmed, it's the best way. If you don't have to fight them, that's great. Another great option is to shoot them from a distance. But if it's your hands and their club, your best bet is to get inside.
 
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