Is it more effective to hit the knees lower legs of opponent when I do stick fight with a cane in self defense?

[Hanshi]

This is an interesting question for anyone using a stick. I can only give a general opinion as it will depend on whether the attacker is armed and with what weapon. Winter clothing is a major consideration especially in very cold parts of the country such as Maine, where I live.

I'm 80 years old and have psoriatic arthritis that has cost me strength and speed. I have to use a cane because I fall a lot. The cane I use is a "shepherd's staff" cut down to the needed length and is made from oak. This type of cane is excellent for hooking the neck, legs striking and thrusting.

The targets to strike will be the ones open to attack. The first strike will open other areas so I am a believer in being hard to figure out. An attacker will tell you (not on purpose) where to strike first. After that keep going so he won't recover his wits and be beyond your control.

 

[Alan0354]

This is an interesting question for anyone using a stick. I can only give a general opinion as it will depend on whether the attacker is armed and with what weapon. Winter clothing is a major consideration especially in very cold parts of the country such as Maine, where I live.

I'm 80 years old and have psoriatic arthritis that has cost me strength and speed. I have to use a cane because I fall a lot. The cane I use is a "shepherd's staff" cut down to the needed length and is made from oak. This type of cane is excellent for hooking the neck, legs striking and thrusting.

The targets to strike will be the ones open to attack. The first strike will open other areas so I am a believer in being hard to figure out. An attacker will tell you (not on purpose) where to strike first. After that keep going so he won't recover his wits and be beyond your control.

Too bad we all have to get old. We all slow down as we get older, that's the reason I choose to practice swinging the cane with 2 hands. I can use a heavier cane, better control, not losing the cane as easily as single hand swing. Also with the "Casting", it's half way jabbing forward and half way swinging, the swing circle is a lot smaller. Real life is not like in dojo or competitions that you have an open space to swing. In real life, you have people, furniture around that can get in the way of the big swing. You can easily lose your cane if you accidentally hit something unexpected.

I practice hitting low from the left side. People get used to being attack from the right and high to the head. It's a lot harder to defend a low strike to the knee and from the left. Then the second follow up strike to the head hoping they try to block the low and open the head.

I really treat this as aerobics, I do weights also. Weight training help me in recovering from ache and pains and get stronger. I can still do 90 pushups and 50 situps in one set. I cannot help slowing down, but at least strength training lets me swing a heavier stick.

 

[Alan0354]

I'm 80 years old and have psoriatic arthritis that has cost me strength and speed. I have to use a cane because I fall a lot. The cane I use is a "shepherd's staff" cut down to the needed length and is made from oak. This type of cane is excellent for hooking the neck, legs striking and thrusting.

I was thinking about what you said, that gave me the wild idea of turning the crook cane and hit with the round side. That will give extra weight and I can use a lighter cane about 18 to 20oz. I want to hear what other people think, is there any down side of it. What I am afraid is even it I hit with the round side, but the hook might still catch onto something and pull the cane off my hands.

Regarding your comment on hooking the neck, I hope someone with experience can join in. I don't want to pretend I am an expert. I would NEVER try to hook the opponent's neck. Yes, it might cause pain, BUT the natural response of the person is to back up. Are you strong enough to hold onto the cane when the person back up with both feet even though it's painful? Particularly you said you have problem of balancing. What if you get pulled off balance and fall to the ground and lose your cane? Now you have an angry man possessing your cane, using it to hit you back while you are on the ground?

that's the reason I am skeptical of a lot of teaching. They look fancy in demo, but how about in real life? I never practice hooking or grappling with a cane, just very simple strikes and foot work to move around. I concentrate on hitting hard, where to hit at places that is hard to defend.

I think about real life situation, not looking good and only can be used in dojo where you have a wide open space. This is real life. I practice in narrow hallway like 3ft wide, in living with all the furniture.

I hope someone with experience can join in to tell me whether it is safe to hit using the round end of the crook cane. Any danger of snatching on something and pull it off my hands.

 

[Holmejr]

Have you looked into TEPADO striking. Whoever is in the video, seems to have fairly weak striking. There are many good videos of TEPADO. My instructor teaches this method or concept of striking even with the 11 oz sticks we commonly use. Also, It’s difficult to generate killing or debilitatingpower when drawing back and hitting along the same line.

Eskrido de Alcuizar
Buena Park, CA

 

[Alan0354]

Have you looked into TEPADO striking. Whoever is in the video, seems to have fairly weak striking. There are many good videos of TEPADO. My instructor teaches this method or concept of striking even with the 11 oz sticks we commonly use. Also, It’s difficult to generate killing or debilitatingpower when drawing back and hitting along the same line.

Eskrido de Alcuizar
Buena Park, CA

Thanks for the reply

Yes, I looked into Tepado. It's 2 hands strike. but they use much longer stick. More importantly, they always hit on the floor, I don't know why. I just don't like the way they do the hitting and it doesn't fit the common shorter crook cane.

 

[Holmejr]

Thanks for the reply

Yes, I looked into Tepado. It's 2 hands strike. but they use much longer stick. More importantly, they always hit on the floor, I don't know why. I just don't like the way they do the hitting and it doesn't fit the common shorter crook cane.

No they don’t always hit the floor and it’s totally compatible with a cane length stick. They hit the floor with a staff length to capture the energy coming up. The main idea is the pronation. Here is TEPADO concept with a more cane like length weapon.

 

[Alan0354]

No they don’t always hit the floor and it’s totally compatible with a cane length stick. They hit the floor with a staff length to capture the energy coming up. The main idea is the pronation. Here is TEPADO concept with a more cane like length weapon.

Yes, this is how I practice. With difference of casting that doesn't swing as wild like this. Also I hit low to the knee and lower legs. I do a little more footwork left right, in and out.

Problem with a lot of schools is they use technique fits for competition and dojo. They have rules to be "kind" not hitting knees and critical body parts. the worst is their technique are fit for dojo and competition where you have wide flat open space. Those are NOT practical in real world self defense. That's the reason I follow Lamont Glass( Blindside) teaching of casting. Might not gather as much velocity, but combining forward jabbing and sideway swing, you still get a lot of power and I can practice in a 3ft wide hallway and in area with furniture. Good luck with Tepado or any other style that require wide swing.

 

[Holmejr]

Yes, this is how I practice. With difference of casting that doesn't swing as wild like this. Also I hit low to the knee and lower legs. I do a little more footwork left right, in and out.

Problem with a lot of schools is they use technique fits for competition and dojo. They have rules to be "kind" not hitting knees and critical body parts. the worst is their technique are fit for dojo and competition where you have wide flat open space. Those are NOT practical in real world self defense. That's the reason I follow Lamont Glass( Blindside) teaching of casting. Might not gather as much velocity, but combining forward jabbing and sideway swing, you still get a lot of power and I can practice in a 3ft wide hallway and in area with furniture. Good luck with Tepado or any other style that require wide swing.

If you could supply a video that explains the concept of casting that would be supper.

 

[wab25]

When I compare the video in post 20 with the one in post 26.... the guy in post 26 is the guy I would train with. He is on balance, not over extending, not breaking his structure. His strikes are faster and more controlled. He is not over committing to any one strike. Both guys should be able to do their work in the same narrow hallway.... the guy in 20 does it by keeping the stick in front of him, the guy in 26 does this by keeping the stick near him at all times.

Bending forward at the waist, while sticking you butt out behind you, in order to increase your reach.... is sacrificing your power, structure and your balance for a few inches of reach. You are all concerned about someone grabbing the hook and pulling you off balance.... if you are striking like the guy in 20, you are already off balance and would be very easy to pull you forward without needing to grab a hook....

The movements the guy in 26 is using are designed to keep him on balance, with good power and structure. If you were to grab his stick, it would be very hard to pull him off balance. The movement of the stick is designed to either twist the stick out of your grab or to be used as a lever to take the other guys balance and break his structure... meaning if someone did grab the stick he was using, that person would be the one in trouble, not the guy using the stick as done in post 26.

You keep saying you want to use techniques for real fights and not for the dojo.... then you talk about swinging your stick low, so that they block low and open their head. You are using a stick. Have a friend use one of your lighter sticks to hit you in the head, for real. Go ahead and use your arms to block his strikes.... you will most likely end up with broken fingers, broken hand, broken wrist, maybe a broken arm.... you will certainly be covered in bruises and you will learn that those strikes hurt, a lot. If you go in swinging low, no one is going to reach down to block and get their hand broken. They will step back or step over or step to the side so as not to take the impact.

 

[Alan0354]

When I compare the video in post 20 with the one in post 26.... the guy in post 26 is the guy I would train with. He is on balance, not over extending, not breaking his structure. His strikes are faster and more controlled. He is not over committing to any one strike. Both guys should be able to do their work in the same narrow hallway.... the guy in 20 does it by keeping the stick in front of him, the guy in 26 does this by keeping the stick near him at all times.

Bending forward at the waist, while sticking you butt out behind you, in order to increase your reach.... is sacrificing your power, structure and your balance for a few inches of reach. You are all concerned about someone grabbing the hook and pulling you off balance.... if you are striking like the guy in 20, you are already off balance and would be very easy to pull you forward without needing to grab a hook....

The movements the guy in 26 is using are designed to keep him on balance, with good power and structure. If you were to grab his stick, it would be very hard to pull him off balance. The movement of the stick is designed to either twist the stick out of your grab or to be used as a lever to take the other guys balance and break his structure... meaning if someone did grab the stick he was using, that person would be the one in trouble, not the guy using the stick as done in post 26.

You keep saying you want to use techniques for real fights and not for the dojo.... then you talk about swinging your stick low, so that they block low and open their head. You are using a stick. Have a friend use one of your lighter sticks to hit you in the head, for real. Go ahead and use your arms to block his strikes.... you will most likely end up with broken fingers, broken hand, broken wrist, maybe a broken arm.... you will certainly be covered in bruises and you will learn that those strikes hurt, a lot. If you go in swinging low, no one is going to reach down to block and get their hand broken. They will step back or step over or step to the side so as not to take the impact.

1) You need to know I might never have formal training in stick fight, But I had a few years in kickboxing, a yr in judo and some WingChung. I am not a green horn. I know about how to use body to add power and all that, also foot work. I know enough to judge. I quit because of back injury from all the high kicks. But I still have heavy bags and home and practice in the last 40yrs.

2) Do you know the "guy" in post #20 IS ONE OF THE FOUNDER OF THIS FORUM? Go to youtube and look for Lamont Glass, he is doing REAL competitions, own a school in Wa. Watch those videos and he can speak for himself.

3) Doing like the one in post #26 is EASY. You swing with the whole body WIDE and WILD. Just like it's easy to do wide hook punch. Most beginners do that because it's easy to get power. But it swing so wide it is only useful in open space. Just like high round house kick is easy to do. Everyone like to think that's the best kick for fighting. You ever fight in real world with people around? You likely kick something else. More importantly, you can maintain balance if you have a clean lever floor. Try high round kicks on uneven ground in real life, particular if there is anything on the floor. You might fell on your a$$.

4) The hardest punch is the reverse punch straight. By nature, it's a lot weaker that wide swing. It takes MONTHS TO MASTER IT. COMBINING HEELS, FOOT, HIPS, WAIST, SHOULDER together to add to the punch, it is hard to master, I practiced before class everyday alone on a heavy bag to finally got it. You can hear the sound starts to sound loud pop, hollow. The bag stop moving and the punch penetrate into the bag. That's when you finally gets it. The Casting showed by the EXPERT in post# 20 is exactly that. took me months to put in the heel, foot, hips, waist and shoulder to strike. It can hit hard.

5) Seeing is believing, why don't you show me using the strike in post #26 and strike in a 3ft wide hallway. It's so easy to talk particularly with just a wood stick that is light. I have a 1" diameter long wood stick, it's light, I can swing really good looking too!!

Make a video, show and tell, do it in a 3ft wide hallway. Talk is cheap.

 

[Alan0354]

I forgot to reply about hurting forearm on blocking the stick. I practice to strengthen my fist, elbow, forearm and even shin for full contact. This is what I practice 2 times a week for many years. I practice forearm by hitting both forearms together 30 times each side for years. I definitely can use my hands and arms to block the stick. DON'T ASSUME.

 

[wab25]

First off... I don't know who either person is in either video. One stays upright and does not over reach with his stick and maintains his balance... the other does not. Knowing who they are will not change that.

Doing like the one in post #26 is EASY. You swing with the whole body WIDE and WILD.

Why do you see his swings as "wide" or "wild?"

The strikes stayed within the width of his shoulders, some vertical and some diagonal. Even when he brings the stick back, it is over his head or shoulder. There were a few where he circled it around, but those where at most within the length of his stick... though he did not even do those horizontally.... and those can be done very narrow... and I believe he could do those in a very narrow space... based on what I see. His strikes were fast, but they were precise and controlled and very efficient with little or no extra movements. He never lost his balance, broke his structure or over reached.

The guy in post 20, even in the still picture that shows before you start playing it... his hips are back, he is bent forward at the waist and over reaching. His balance is already broken.

Its good that you condition you arms and hands.... I have seen in real life, the damage that can be caused by a hard stick moving fast and hitting someone. I bet on the stick winning every time when it is hitting any part of human anatomy at speed.

 

[Alan0354]

First off... I don't know who either person is in either video. One stays upright and does not over reach with his stick and maintains his balance... the other does not. Knowing who they are will not change that.


Why do you see his swings as "wide" or "wild?"

The strikes stayed within the width of his shoulders, some vertical and some diagonal. Even when he brings the stick back, it is over his head or shoulder. There were a few where he circled it around, but those where at most within the length of his stick... though he did not even do those horizontally.... and those can be done very narrow... and I believe he could do those in a very narrow space... based on what I see. His strikes were fast, but they were precise and controlled and very efficient with little or no extra movements. He never lost his balance, broke his structure or over reached.

The guy in post 20, even in the still picture that shows before you start playing it... his hips are back, he is bent forward at the waist and over reaching. His balance is already broken.

Its good that you condition you arms and hands.... I have seen in real life, the damage that can be caused by a hard stick moving fast and hitting someone. I bet on the stick winning every time when it is hitting any part of human anatomy at speed.

It's no point to talk like this, show and tell. Show me you can use the moves in #26 in 3ft wide hallway.

I started out practice wide swing like that, then I change and see the difference.

EDIT:

What's wrong with reaching? As long as you have a secure stand, it will give you extra reach. It's like you see people punching with a reach. IT WORKS.

TALK IS CHEAP, MAKE A VIDEO SHOWING THE SWING IN #20 WORKS IN 3FT WIDE HALLWAY.

 

[Holmejr]

I forgot to reply about hurting forearm on blocking the stick. I practice to strengthen my fist, elbow, forearm and even shin for full contact. This is what I practice 2 times a week for many years. I practice forearm by hitting both forearms together 30 times each side for years. I definitely can use my hands pand arms to block the stick. DON'T ASSUME.

Video of blocking the first four inches of the stick using your hand or arm at full volume please. Including sound!

 

[Alan0354]

Video of blocking the first four inches of the stick using your hand or arm at full volume please. Including sound!

All I said was I am doing a lot of training toughen up my bones and have better change than others to survive hitting by the stick on the arms and hands. Not that I am going to use the hand to block.

I am holding a cane too, the whole thing is wab25 assume when I hit low, my upper body is completely open to be attacked. when I practice, I hit low first and immediately hit high hoping the guy lower his hands to try to block the low strike.

I practice hitting low, high low. Not just one low strike. I use foot work to move left and right, forward and backward while striking. No intention to use the arm to block the strike.

 

[Alan0354]

First off... I don't know who either person is in either video. One stays upright and does not over reach with his stick and maintains his balance... the other does not. Knowing who they are will not change that.


Why do you see his swings as "wide" or "wild?"

The strikes stayed within the width of his shoulders, some vertical and some diagonal. Even when he brings the stick back, it is over his head or shoulder. There were a few where he circled it around, but those where at most within the length of his stick... though he did not even do those horizontally.... and those can be done very narrow... and I believe he could do those in a very narrow space... based on what I see. His strikes were fast, but they were precise and controlled and very efficient with little or no extra movements. He never lost his balance, broke his structure or over reached.

The guy in post 20, even in the still picture that shows before you start playing it... his hips are back, he is bent forward at the waist and over reaching. His balance is already broken.

Its good that you condition you arms and hands.... I have seen in real life, the damage that can be caused by a hard stick moving fast and hitting someone. I bet on the stick winning every time when it is hitting any part of human anatomy at speed.

Well, still waiting for you to show some video how to use in post #26 to strike in a 3ft wide hallway.

It's easy to be an armchair quarterback. You must missed my post telling you Lamont Glass(Blindside) in post #20 is one of the founder of this forum, have a school in Seattle Wa and actually in competitions.

 

[Alan0354]

Armchair QB it is. It's so easy to claim to be an expert. At least I know myself better that I am not an expert, just talk.

 

[wab25]

Well, still waiting for you to show some video how to use in post #26 to strike in a 3ft wide hallway.

It's easy to be an armchair quarterback. You must missed my post telling you Lamont Glass(Blindside) in post #20 is one of the founder of this forum, have a school in Seattle Wa and actually in competitions.

I am not sure what you would see in any video I could make. You can not see the difference in posture, structure or balance between the two videos... so I am not sure what adding a third video would do.

As far as the wild swings... if you cannot see from the video in #26 that most of those swings are vertical and none are outside the width of his shoulders.... how would another video help?

You have determined that the guy in video in post #20 is the end all, be all, perfect example of stick fighting.... and you are combining that with your idea that you need a super heavy stick to inflict damage on the other guy, despite people's experiences with far lighter sticks than your cane, inflicting very serious damage. But, hey, we must all be wrong.... but I don't know how else to describe the injuries we have seen.... maybe we are just making them up, because nobody here has any idea what they are talking about, except for you. Please accept my apologies for offering the things I have seen and experienced.... I will try to stay in my armchair.

 

[Alan0354]

I am not sure what you would see in any video I could make. You can not see the difference in posture, structure or balance between the two videos... so I am not sure what adding a third video would do.

As far as the wild swings... if you cannot see from the video in #26 that most of those swings are vertical and none are outside the width of his shoulders.... how would another video help?

You have determined that the guy in video in post #20 is the end all, be all, perfect example of stick fighting.... and you are combining that with your idea that you need a super heavy stick to inflict damage on the other guy, despite people's experiences with far lighter sticks than your cane, inflicting very serious damage. But, hey, we must all be wrong.... but I don't know how else to describe the injuries we have seen.... maybe we are just making them up, because nobody here has any idea what they are talking about, except for you. Please accept my apologies for offering the things I have seen and experienced.... I will try to stay in my armchair.

Post #26 is swinging vertical? WOW!!!! You know vertical is not from left to right and right to left?

It's so easy to armchair QB, make a video. Too bad I am still recovering from hip replacement, or else I can make a video. I don't claim to be an expert, but I put in my time. One video speaks louder than everything else.

 

[wab25]

Post #26 is swinging vertical? WOW!!!! You know vertical is not from left to right and right to left?

I see the confusion.... you are correct.... he is swing from right to left.... because he is on the right side of the picture swinging at a target on the left side of the picture.

Watch his hands when he draws back, they only go to 3 places... above his right shoulder, above his head and above his left shoulder. Watch the tip of his stick when it is back ready for the strike.... it is on the rear center line. So, when his hands are above his head, the stick is straight back along the centerline, when his hands are over a shoulder, there is a slight angle, but the tip is still on the centerline behind him. His swing then comes down to put the tip on the centerline. When it comes over his shoulder, there is a bit of angle on it, but it is still within the width of his shoulders, which are not 3 feet wide. He slides his whole body side to side, to get the angle of cut he wants on the target and to get the distance he wants on the target. He is not swinging a baseball bat, he is not over extending his reach to break his posture. He does not jump back as he swings, of bend forward when he swings. His swings are very tight and controlled and all within the width of his shoulders.

One video speaks louder than everything else.

Only if you can see what is really happening in the video... somehow you seem to be seeing wild baseball bat swinging when there is not any of that in the video....