My point about going a mile distance

[Dirty Dog]

Any good instructor will tell you that in order for martial arts to be effective you have to be in good shape, technique alone will not make you effective.

That's odd. I consdier myself a resaonably good instructor. And while I will agree that conditioning is a generally good thing for life in general, it is certainly NOT mandatory to be effective at defending yourself.
I'm not in anything like the condition I wish I was, but it's been less than an hour since I put a person (who I doubt has any actual training other than as a badass gangbanger) half my age on the ground, tied up in a knot, till Security could arrive.

 

[K-man]

A less fit person can beat a more fit person with superior technique, skill, and strategy. You still do need to be in relatively good shape though, you can have good technique but you need gunpowder behind the technique to give it power, that's where being in good shape comes in.

Almost right except for the gunpowder. If I were to compete using strength, I would fail. Aikido and some other MAs teach you to be soft. You don't need strength then. As you get older certainly you can stay as healthy and fit as you can but you will never compete using strength alone.

 

[PhotonGuy]

This is another example of you speaking in absolutes again; "any good instructor" means that any instructor that says anything other is automatically "not good." Is that really what you meant?

If any instructor of the martial arts said that you don't have to be in good shape to be effective in the martial arts, that technique alone would do it, I would not train under such an instructor. It can be a misconception among non martial artists that all you need is technique and you don't have to be in good shape, but anybody who has decent experience in the martial arts, certainly somebody who is experienced enough to teach should know that you have to be in good shape too. Thats why martial arts classes usually involve calisthenics. An instructor who says otherwise I would not trust.

 

[PhotonGuy]

That's odd. I consdier myself a resaonably good instructor. And while I will agree that conditioning is a generally good thing for life in general, it is certainly NOT mandatory to be effective at defending yourself.
I'm not in anything like the condition I wish I was, but it's been less than an hour since I put a person (who I doubt has any actual training other than as a badass gangbanger) half my age on the ground, tied up in a knot, till Security could arrive.

If being in good shape wasn't necessary for being effective in the martial arts than why was Royce Gracie doing all these weightlifting exercises when he was preparing for a fight? Years back Royce wrote a magazine article talking about all the exercises he would do at the gym with weights in preparation for a fight.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Almost right except for the gunpowder. If I were to compete using strength, I would fail. Aikido and some other MAs teach you to be soft. You don't need strength then. As you get older certainly you can stay as healthy and fit as you can but you will never compete using strength alone.

Well obviously you do need more than strength. You also need skill and technique. The very idea behind some martial arts is to be able to defeat a larger, stronger opponent. But even arts such as Aikido require you to do techniques over and over again in training which does require endurance. And while not all martial arts might require much brute strength, the kind of strength for lifting lots of weight or for outstrengthening somebody, they do require the kind of strength that somebody in ballet or gymnastics needs to be able to move their body the way they do.

 

[K-man]

If being in good shape wasn't necessary for being effective in the martial arts than why was Royce Gracie doing all these weightlifting exercises when he was preparing for a fight? Years back Royce wrote a magazine article talking about all the exercises he would do at the gym with weights in preparation for a fight.

Because he was preparing for a fight! He was preparing to take on another world class athlete. That is totally different to the average person who is learning a martial art. If you are training MMA and wanting to compete in the ring your training will be totally different to mine. I am not anticipating a fight anytime soon so I don't require the same level of peak fitness.

But even arts such as Aikido require you to do techniques over and over again in training which does require endurance. And while not all martial arts might require much brute strength, the kind of strength for lifting lots of weight or for outstrengthening somebody, they do require the kind of strength that somebody in ballet or gymnastics needs to be able to move their body the way they do.

Again there is different types of training. In Aikido there is absolutely no way I could do the rolls and falls that the younger guys do. And in Aikido I don't require any strength at all to perform the techniques. That's right .... zero strength. I used to be a gymnast and I can assure you I have about 30% of the strength and 20% of the fitness I had 50 years ago.

 

[Blindside]

If being in good shape wasn't necessary for being effective in the martial arts than why was Royce Gracie doing all these weightlifting exercises when he was preparing for a fight? Years back Royce wrote a magazine article talking about all the exercises he would do at the gym with weights in preparation for a fight.

Because he was competing against world class athletes.

Don't get me wrong, being in good shape will help, I am a huge advocate for strength training and aerobic and anaerobic fitness, but it isn't "necessary" for self-defense training.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If being in good shape wasn't necessary for being effective in the martial arts than why was Royce Gracie doing all these weightlifting exercises when he was preparing for a fight? Years back Royce wrote a magazine article talking about all the exercises he would do at the gym with weights in preparation for a fight.

Because he was preparing for a competitive sparring match against a world class athlete.
Pretty much nothing to do with actual self defense.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

 

[Tez3]

An
QUOTE="PhotonGuy, post: 1676312, member: 30963"]There are some things that you can't rush otherwise you will ruin it and it will take longer. But, depending on what it is sometimes working harder will get you to your destination sooner.

And sometimes its good to look at the past, that's why they teach history in school.[/QUOTE]

Ah but history was written by the victors so much of what you learn isn't actually true.

 

[Elbowgrease]

It's about so much more than just fitness, self defense, technique...
For every single person that ever has or will pursue martial arts on any level for any reason, There will be at least that many reasons for pursuing martial arts. Some may be more valid than others, some might be completely ridiculous.
Well, overall fitness is good, but I've seen people use martial arts to learn how to walk again after serious spinal injuries. I've seen an elderly couple (in their 90's) use it as a way to get closer to each other. What are you trying to do with your martial arts? That's what you've got to train for.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Because he was preparing for a fight! He was preparing to take on another world class athlete. That is totally different to the average person who is learning a martial art. If you are training MMA and wanting to compete in the ring your training will be totally different to mine. I am not anticipating a fight anytime soon so I don't require the same level of peak fitness.

A street confrontation or self defense situation can happen at any time. Its not like sport fighting where the events are planned out in advance and you know when you will go in to compete. When a real fight happens and you have to defend yourself usually there is no planning and there is no notice beforehand so to be prepared I would say its best to anticipate the possibility of a fight at any time. If you know about the Cooper Color Codes stay in the yellow. And that includes keeping yourself in decent enough shape in case you do have a confrontation. Be prepared, that's the scout motto.

Again there is different types of training. In Aikido there is absolutely no way I could do the rolls and falls that the younger guys do. And in Aikido I don't require any strength at all to perform the techniques. That's right .... zero strength. I used to be a gymnast and I can assure you I have about 30% of the strength and 20% of the fitness I had 50 years ago.

Zero strength? If you used absolutely zero strength you wouldn't even be moving. To move at least requires some strength. Maybe not as much as a seasoned gymnast but it does require some strength.

 

[tshadowchaser]

heck I have had a stroke and I'm pushing 70 in a year or so, my ability to do the calisthenics I once did is gone, I've even added 10 pounds of fat in the last year. So I would say I am not in great condition. Dose that mean with my 45 -50 years of training and experience I can not teach a class with any knowledge or competency?

Yes I want my students to get in shape not only because it might make the better fighters but it improves their health . Can I instruct a person that is out of shape to defend themselves . Yep I do it almost every class and some have come back after years away to say the knowledge and training got them out of messy situations.

 

[K-man]

A street confrontation or self defense situation can happen at any time. Its not like sport fighting where the events are planned out in advance and you know when you will go in to compete. When a real fight happens and you have to defend yourself usually there is no planning and there is no notice beforehand so to be prepared I would say its best to anticipate the possibility of a fight at any time. If you know about the Cooper Color Codes stay in the yellow. And that includes keeping yourself in decent enough shape in case you do have a confrontation. Be prepared, that's the scout motto.[/QUOTEI do know the colour codes. If you stick to yellow you will hardly even leave your house! Always prepared though.

Zero strength? If you used absolutely zero strength you wouldn't even be moving. To move at least requires some strength. Maybe not as much as a seasoned gymnast but it does require some strength.

Umm! You didn't read what I wrote. I said 'zero strength', not 'zero effort'. Subtle difference.

 

[drop bear]

Being in 'good shape' is relative. Can some one at 65 be in 'good shape' compared to someone in 'good shape' at 35? In most cases the 35 year old will be in better shape. So how does the 65 year old cope against the 35 year old?

they don't that is why fighters careers are pretty short.

 

[drop bear]

Because he was competing against world class athletes.

Don't get me wrong, being in good shape will help, I am a huge advocate for strength training and aerobic and anaerobic fitness, but it isn't "necessary" for self-defense training.

but you are just lowering the bar there and that is not really the point. Yes you can do martial arts and not be fit. But if you want to go up against a world class athlete you should be.

being fit will make you a better martial artist.

so you can judge the quality of a martial artist by his fitness. And in real defensive terms you do not want to gas out before you fight is over.

 

[K-man]

they don't that is why fighters careers are pretty short.

I'd love to see you in one of our classes. You might just get a rude shock. You are talking about sport and in that situation, I agree. I know a number of 60+ people you wouldn't want to tangle with.

but you are just lowering the bar there and that is not really the point. Yes you can do martial arts and not be fit. But if you want to go up against a world class athlete you should be.

being fit will make you a better martial artist.

so you can judge the quality of a martial artist by his fitness. And in real defensive terms you do not want to gas out before you fight is over.

You can't tell the quality of a martial artist by his fitness. That is plain ridiculous. How about a world class gymnast who has been training a martial art for three months? He's very fit but he barely knows the basics of the art.

I'm not lowering the bar at all. In real defensive terms, most fights don't last long and even trained people going flat out don't last long. In a sport situation, fighters pace themselves. You can't do that on the street.

But I'm not advocating you don't keep reasonably fit. Obviously that is what we all want to do, but as you get older you change your approach to training and fighting, and if you stick around for long enough you might understand what I mean.

 

[Transk53]

If being in good shape wasn't necessary for being effective in the martial arts than why was Royce Gracie doing all these weightlifting exercises when he was preparing for a fight? Years back Royce wrote a magazine article talking about all the exercises he would do at the gym with weights in preparation for a fight.

Believe Sammo Hung would be a good illustration of someone not being in shape, but very effective.

 

[Cirdan]

Well you can go as many miles you like, but if you are stuck in the penalty loop you are not really going anywhere until you figure how to get out of there.

 

[K-man]

I think we might all be in the penalty loop!

 

[Cirdan]

I think we might all be in the penalty loop!

Agreed but some step in and out by choise or trying to help those who can`t find the exit.

"There must be some kind of way out of here, "
Said the joker to the thief,
"There's too much confusion, I can't get no relief.