A thought about philosophy in the martial arts.

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PhotonGuy

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I disagree with a lot of that. The harder you train the more disciplined you train and the more time you spend training the better you are going to get.

The better you get the better able you will be able to understand the concepts.

I understand the concept of stopping and smelling the roses from a life balance point of view but not from an effective training point of view.

So it comes down to this. For me anyway.

If you want belts work hard for them and get them. The harder you work the more you deserve them.

If you are part of a school that is not giving you belts because they don't like hard work then go find a martial art that does.Seriously if lower belts are manhandling the more experienced guys then and the reason for that being that there is reward for being one of the cool guys and not one of the hard working guys. Then I don't see the benefit of that system.


I agree with Drop Bear. Technical skill itself I don't see as enough for promotion, but if a student develops technical skill in the process they should develop all the other necessary attributes. It takes time to develop technical skill so if a student has developed technical skill it shows that they're patient. And belts aren't everything but a student that works hard does deserve them. And there is nothing wrong with talking to your sensei about something if you don't understand it.
 
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PhotonGuy

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I'm not saying go slow, neither am I saying don't work hard. I'm saying go deep. Racing towards a goal will achieve superficial knowledge without the depth of thousands of hours of application.

Essentially drop bear I think we are saying the same thing. Work hard. But the deeper reward lies within the work itself, not from some externally applied goal criterion.

OK I agree with you on that. But it never hurts to be efficient.
 

jks9199

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Volume of practice. Muscle memory and all that. And the reason.,OK also natural talent, that some people can achieve in months what others take years to do.

I still don't understand why an external goal like a belt is a bad goal.

I am not sure what internal goal is significantly better or more moral.

I know people who have fitness goals. One of my friends is training for a marathon. (External goal) in the process he is getting fit loosing weight learning a skill (internal goal)

Now I am not sure you could as successfully achieve the result the other way. Getting fit and then in the process do a marathon.

Actually -- that leads to what might be a good analogy. The Couch to 5K program is designed to take someone from literally zero running to doing a 5K in 9 weeks. If you double up the daily stages, you likely won't be able to run a 5K in 4.5 weeks; you'll stand a really good chance of suffering an injury and needing several months to recover before you can run a 5K.

Photonguy -- you seem to be really goal focused, and that's not a bad thing. But it can lead to missing things, and if you're focused on the wrong goals, you might not get where you want to be. And, if you're too focused on the goal, you just might miss something along the way.
 

jks9199

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I agree with Drop Bear. Technical skill itself I don't see as enough for promotion, but if a student develops technical skill in the process they should develop all the other necessary attributes. It takes time to develop technical skill so if a student has developed technical skill it shows that they're patient. And belts aren't everything but a student that works hard does deserve them. And there is nothing wrong with talking to your sensei about something if you don't understand it.

Who has said you shouldn't talk to your teachers and coaches?
 
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PhotonGuy

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Actually -- that leads to what might be a good analogy. The Couch to 5K program is designed to take someone from literally zero running to doing a 5K in 9 weeks. If you double up the daily stages, you likely won't be able to run a 5K in 4.5 weeks; you'll stand a really good chance of suffering an injury and needing several months to recover before you can run a 5K.

Photonguy -- you seem to be really goal focused, and that's not a bad thing. But it can lead to missing things, and if you're focused on the wrong goals, you might not get where you want to be. And, if you're too focused on the goal, you just might miss something along the way.

Trying to run a 5K in 4.5 weeks as opposed to the 9 weeks the program says it will take would probably not be possible for most people and most likely would result in an injury. But that doesn't mean somebody who works a bit harder and does a bit more than what the program says won't be able to run the 5K in less time than 9 weeks, a person who pushes themselves harder might be able to do it in 8 weeks. And sometimes there is good reason to be goal focused and wanting to get to your goal in less time than it would ordinarily take. I once knew this girl in college who was taking almost twice as many classes as most people because she wanted to get her degree in two years as opposed to the standard four years it takes.
 

drop bear

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Actually -- that leads to what might be a good analogy. The Couch to 5K program is designed to take someone from literally zero running to doing a 5K in 9 weeks. If you double up the daily stages, you likely won't be able to run a 5K in 4.5 weeks; you'll stand a really good chance of suffering an injury and needing several months to recover before you can run a 5K.

Photonguy -- you seem to be really goal focused, and that's not a bad thing. But it can lead to missing things, and if you're focused on the wrong goals, you might not get where you want to be. And, if you're too focused on the goal, you just might miss something along the way.

We have taken people off the couch and put them in the ring in twelve weeks.

But otherwise I would have to see the programming. I am thinking you could do a swim or a weights or even a bodyweight on top of that and get benefits.

The Couch-to-5K ® Running Plan | C25K Mobile App

Yeah that looks like stuff all.
 

Buka

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I don't know anything about running miles. I don't know anything about guitars. What philosophies I've learned have all come from Martial Arts. I listen to those who have a certain mastery of their Art(s) over those who have yet to attain that.

I consider them Philosoraptors.

2rcbl9h.jpg
 
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PhotonGuy

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Who has said you shouldn't talk to your teachers and coaches?

There's been people on this board who've said you should just "shut up and train," and while that does have its place such as during drill work, there is nothing wrong with asking questions during breaks or after class.
 

jks9199

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There's been people on this board who've said you should just "shut up and train," and while that does have its place such as during drill work, there is nothing wrong with asking questions during breaks or after class.

And you have been told, in conjunction with that advice, that there are times and places for questions. Honestly, sometimes I wonder if you read past the first sentence in a reply...

But what does that have to do with your initial idea here?
 

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There's been people on this board who've said you should just "shut up and train," and while that does have its place such as during drill work, there is nothing wrong with asking questions during breaks or after class.

And it remains excellent advice. It's pretty silly to think that such a statement means you should never talk or ask questions. And even sillier to think that anybody here meant it in such a way.

I'm trying to remember... being excessively literal minded is a symptom of something...
 

drop bear

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There's been people on this board who've said you should just "shut up and train," and while that does have its place such as during drill work, there is nothing wrong with asking questions during breaks or after class.

Lol.

That was me.

Shut up and train falls directly into the principles of goal focused training.

Maybe a terry Pratchett's quote will be more applicable.

[h=1]“Miss Tick sniffed. 'You could say this advice is priceless,' she said. 'Are you listening?'
'Yes,' said Tiffany.
'Good. Now ... if you trust in yourself ...'
'Yes?'
'... and believe in your dreams ...'
'Yes?'
'... and follow your star ...' Miss Tick went on.
'Yes?'
'... you'll still get beaten by people who spent THEIR time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy. Goodbye.”[/h]
 

donald1

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Questions are good, it's better to ask a question and learn something the hard way then to never have learned it at all. As long as it's on TOPIC, NOT INTERESTING THE TEACHER when he or she is talking, or another bad question is when you ask a question that was just answered. Gonna be getting be getting some frightening looks from the instructor when that happens... But sometimes when you stay quiet and train sometimes the instructor will answer it or demonstrate it.

@drop bear what does that quote means?
 

drop bear

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Questions are good, it's better to ask a question and learn something the hard way then to never have learned it at all. As long as it's on TOPIC, NOT INTERESTING THE TEACHER when he or she is talking, or another bad question is when you ask a question that was just answered. Gonna be getting be getting some frightening looks from the instructor when that happens... But sometimes when you stay quiet and train sometimes the instructor will answer it or demonstrate it.

@drop bear what does that quote means?

The terry Pratchett's one?
 
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PhotonGuy

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And you have been told, in conjunction with that advice, that there are times and places for questions. Honestly, sometimes I wonder if you read past the first sentence in a reply...

But what does that have to do with your initial idea here?

Some people have said that but there have been other people who have said that questions should be rarely if ever asked.
 
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PhotonGuy

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Lol.

That was me.

Shut up and train falls directly into the principles of goal focused training.
I don't remember you saying that, I particularly remember other people saying that. You might've said it, about shutting up and training, but there are some viewpoints expressed on these boards that students should hardly ever ask questions, even during breaks in between drills or before or after class. Basically, that a sensei should be a military DI.
 

drop bear

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I don't remember you saying that, I particularly remember other people saying that. You might've said it, about shutting up and training, but there are some viewpoints expressed on these boards that students should hardly ever ask questions, even during breaks in between drills or before or after class. Basically, that a sensei should be a military DI.


Depends on the coach and the questions.
 

Dirty Dog

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Some people have said that but there have been other people who have said that questions should be rarely if ever asked.

:bs:

I'm going to hoist the BS flag now. I do not believe that anybody here has said anything of the sort.
I'd like to see some quotes to support this claim, or a retraction.
 

tshadowchaser

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some people still look at a martial arts instructor as some great spiritual all knowing person. These people will ask all sorts of questions of the instructor . If asked before or after a class I see little problem with it or with the answer "how the hell should I know".
Some people need guidance on a particular issue that may be related to violence, bullying,etc. Those question can and perhaps should be answered by the instructor if he has the knowledge and is a responsible enough person to answer intelligently. Once again they should be addressed before ofr after class unless they relate directly to the class at that time.
Questions about religion should be addressed after or before class or not at all unless the instructor is ordained or a monk.
 

Reedone816

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To my limited understanding of this thread, everybody agree that training hard is good, just how hard it is that still disputed in accordance of understanding.
Perfect technique execution is not equal to perfect understanding of the technique.
Now rushing the training may not makes you faster understood of the technique concept, because it is of mind, sometimes you just need to sleep on it after exhausting in technique rolling and asking question.
How fast is it? Depends on persons, some can get faster some took a time, the external factor that catalysing it are instructors, training mates and methodology.
You just need to find the most effective and efficient spot between cost and benefit.
Back to analogy in running, what if it is like this:
The instructor give you a task to go from point A to point B, and to count how many tiles in side walk is missing.
I believe you'll adjust your speed accordingly.
Now the question is, how many instructors would give a hint of counting the tiles instead of just ordered you to move from point A to point B?
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