Multiple Attackers-Fantasy or Reality?
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
Last Fearner
2nd Black Belt
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2006
- Messages
- 712
- Reaction score
- 17
This kind of debate always amuses me because of the statement that someone makes saying that its "impossible" to defend against more than one person (MJS, I realize this is not your position, but those that form the "other side" of this debate).
In my view, either they have never been in a multiple attacker fight for real, thus they are "guessing" and speaking from ignorance and inexperience, or they have been in a multiple attacker fight and lost, therefore they are speaking from a lack of skill on how to win such an encounter.
From my experience, I don't have to guess, or "think" that its possible, I know it is because I have done it many times. Of course, it will depend on your level of training and skill, and many variables in the situation (including the skill of your attackers).
So, here are the questions:
1) Is it possible? Yes.
2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?
Anything appropriate for that situation. I prefer striking (first with kicks, then with hands, knees and elbows), but I have used restraints, and ground-fighting. Astoundingly, I have used Taekwondo's "flashy" kicks to much success on many occasions. :lol:
As a security professional, I have had to take two people to the ground at the same time in order to stop a fight in a crowd setting, only to have more people try to attack us. I brought them down with grappling, and ended up piling four people on top of one another and holding them all down (not super-human, just tricks my father taught me :ultracool).
3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why? Anyone who feels it is not possible needs to expand their training a bit, and their real-world experience. Granted, what others have said is very important. It CAN be very dangerous, especially if you are not specifically trained for it, and even if you are, when weapons are introduced (hidden knives, etc), you are at a great risk of not surviving. However, when it hits the fan, there is often no choice but to fight them all, and you had better be prepared to survive.
4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?
As others have stated here, and as a general rule, it is not the art, but the student, and the level of training, along with some good fortune. Avoidance is best. Running is not always an option (IE: if you are older, injured, with family/small children, or are trapped with no escape). Typically, it is not the art, but the method applied. I prefer to stay on my feet, keep my distance, align my opponents, perhaps wipe out one attacker quickly, or use smaller/weaker ones as shields.
However, it has been neglected that arts such as judo do train effectively for multiple attackers. It is part of advanced judo to stay on your feet, redirect your opponent's power to throw them (even into another attacker), and position yourself to continue to sweep, reap, and flip multiple people. If it goes to the ground, a Black Belt Judoka knows how to bring people down, and hurt multiple attackers in the process. The image that most people are locked into is that a grappler has to be wrestling with one person only. That is about as naive as thinking that Taekwondo kicks take you off balance, or are useless in multiple attacker situations - - wrong!!! lol :lfao:
5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object) [/quote]
Think "Life-or-Death!" Use whatever is available that works to your advantage. Throw a chair, tip a table, grab a broom, pocket full of change, or a hand full of sand/dirt/gravel. Remove a belt and swing it like a whip! Whatever gets you out of there alive, but the best weapon is your mind, and the best mind is trained in advance.
Keep it real!
Chief Master D.J. Eisenhart
There's a rule in policework...
Expect to find a weapon, and when you find one, look for the next.
The same idea applies to violent confrontations. Unless there's only one person around -- if you have to fight one, expect someone else to be looking to help him.
There are tactics for when you know you have more than one opponent -- but even when you only think there is one, you still need to be alert, and deal with them rapidly, and be ready for the next person when you're done.
Yep...
OP
- Thread Starter
- #45
Folks,
We're getting a bit off track here. Lets stick with the questions that I asked in the beginning please! If the subject of TKD is going to come up, lets discuss the ways TKD deals with multiple attacks. If anyone is interested in rehashing a TKD debate, take a look at some of the existing TKD threads and continue there. If someone is interested in discussing another aspect of TKD, start a new thread.
We're getting a bit off track here. Lets stick with the questions that I asked in the beginning please! If the subject of TKD is going to come up, lets discuss the ways TKD deals with multiple attacks. If anyone is interested in rehashing a TKD debate, take a look at some of the existing TKD threads and continue there. If someone is interested in discussing another aspect of TKD, start a new thread.
Quite right, MJS, after all, for a number of us, we've already stated that the actual art you've trained in is not particularly relevant.
The core, I think we've established, is to manoever the environment to your advanatge, reduced the numbers of 'bad guys' quickly' and get the heck out of Dodge as soon as you can. In my one-time-only encounter, I used a whole three techniques (a block, a lock and a kick) and the 'fight' lasted a handful of seconds until I got the opening I needed to leg it for the police station.
I would imagine that any art has their version of the techniques I used - except perhaps Judo which has a very different approach than many striking arts.
The core, I think we've established, is to manoever the environment to your advanatge, reduced the numbers of 'bad guys' quickly' and get the heck out of Dodge as soon as you can. In my one-time-only encounter, I used a whole three techniques (a block, a lock and a kick) and the 'fight' lasted a handful of seconds until I got the opening I needed to leg it for the police station.
I would imagine that any art has their version of the techniques I used - except perhaps Judo which has a very different approach than many striking arts.
Em MacIntosh
3rd Black Belt
Practice as best you can for it. Learn pain tolerence. Do the best you can to keep you're head clear enough to see what's going on. Don't let anyone grab a hold of you. I know this sounds funny but don't be nice, get over the fact that you have to hurt somebody and do it as efficiently as possible. For some, this is very difficult to overcome. I won't get into the unofrtunate events of having your significant other or kids there or if you're unable to run. If there was ever a time to actually do the best you can...
kidswarrior
Senior Master
Em, this made me remember something one of my Grand Masters used to say all the time: Losing is not an option. Now mind you, I would count fighting to a draw against multiples a huge win.
Em, this made me remember something one of my Grand Masters used to say all the time: Losing is not an option. Now mind you, I would count fighting to a draw against multiples a huge win.
Right. Victory in that kind of situation amounts to coming out in one reasonably functional piece. As MAists we should know better than to take seriously the chopsockey movie conventions whereby one skilled practitioner demolishes six tough attackers all descending on him or her unexpectedly and attacking from within a foot and a half of us before the indended victim know it. In much less romantic reality, survival itself is victory, under a multiple-assailant attack.
SKB
Green Belt
Tonight we did some training with dealing with multiple attackers and I remembered this post. We did all of the good things people haveposted here and then it dawned on my. "tying the line" from the book of five rings. The answer was something I had read in the book. I suggest everyone read it if you have not, there are lots of good points in there. We are not reinventing the wheel..... someone in history has also thought about it and back then the combat was much more in your face!!!
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
I would urge anyone that doubts the ability of trained fighters or martial artists to deal with multiple opponents to have a little more faith in themselves. As long as they train to be prepared for multi's, they'll have the odds stacked in their favor.
More often than not, your opponent on the street will not have anywhere near your level of training. The times that I've had to deal with multi's, the guys were obviously not trained. After their initial attack (that failed of course), the training took over & it all went my way.
Sometimes I think that people overestimate real life. We deal with real life every day. It's not like hordes of ninja are raining upon us from the rooftops. Train for it, rub elbows with folks that have dealt with what the steets can dish out, and you will be vastly more prepared than the average punk or two that think you're an easy mark. It wouldn't be the first time some thug found out too late that they'd bit off more than they could chew
More often than not, your opponent on the street will not have anywhere near your level of training. The times that I've had to deal with multi's, the guys were obviously not trained. After their initial attack (that failed of course), the training took over & it all went my way.
Sometimes I think that people overestimate real life. We deal with real life every day. It's not like hordes of ninja are raining upon us from the rooftops. Train for it, rub elbows with folks that have dealt with what the steets can dish out, and you will be vastly more prepared than the average punk or two that think you're an easy mark. It wouldn't be the first time some thug found out too late that they'd bit off more than they could chew
I would urge anyone that doubts the ability of trained fighters or martial artists to deal with multiple opponents to have a little more faith in themselves. As long as they train to be prepared for multi's, they'll have the odds stacked in their favor.
More often than not, your opponent on the street will not have anywhere near your level of training. The times that I've had to deal with multi's, the guys were obviously not trained. After their initial attack (that failed of course), the training took over & it all went my way.
Sometimes I think that people overestimate real life. We deal with real life every day. It's not like hordes of ninja are raining upon us from the rooftops. Train for it, rub elbows with folks that have dealt with what the steets can dish out, and you will be vastly more prepared than the average punk or two that think you're an easy mark. It wouldn't be the first time some thug found out too late that they'd bit off more than they could chew
I would have to fully agree with you Doc. As long as you are trained to defend against multi's, an experienced MAist should do fine, as long as you remember your training and dont freeze up.
Dave Leverich
Black Belt
1) Is it possible?
Most definitely.
2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?
I think a keen awareness of space is essential. Knowing how to use people against other people in terms of attackable space etc. A very acute understanding of distance, very much a key here. One thing I've done since the mid-80's is to every so often go 'class, face me' and proceed to 'wing it' post haste. You quickly learn to pull the close ones in front to use them as human shields for the others, obviously we can't disable our students but I think they learn and I learn, win win. Also, keeping on one's feet I believe to be paramount, you drop you die. Dog pile and it's that unannounced weapon that finds you.
Just as young lions 'play' at hunting, dogs play at fighting etc. As a kid we played at 'Smear the <NON-PC term>'. Meaning, run like your life depended on it, dodge, move, stay still and die. You'll see this in football and other sports as well, I think it's something to not underestimate when it comes to keeping alive.
3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?
NA
4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?
Like most have stated, it's not the art, but the artist.
5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)
It's always a gauge of severity of the situation. But yes, multiple attackers definitely raises the bar and the 'alert status' so to speak.
One thing when it comes to multiple attackers is to change the rythm, the distance etc. Even with two attackers, say one at 12 one at 3, same distance, same speed. You kick the first as your legs are 1 1/2 feet longer, uppercut the second a split-second later, this makes it timing rather than 2 direct attacks simultaneously. Obviously there's a load of 'if this happens' that can be said... but, a wise friend once mentioned to me.. train in the same way you would compete. I translate that also to situational things as this, have a few attack at once, watch your control and power, and have a good time learning how to deal with this.
Sorry if I rambled.
Most definitely.
2) If you feel that it is possible, what techniques, concepts, etc. do you use?
I think a keen awareness of space is essential. Knowing how to use people against other people in terms of attackable space etc. A very acute understanding of distance, very much a key here. One thing I've done since the mid-80's is to every so often go 'class, face me' and proceed to 'wing it' post haste. You quickly learn to pull the close ones in front to use them as human shields for the others, obviously we can't disable our students but I think they learn and I learn, win win. Also, keeping on one's feet I believe to be paramount, you drop you die. Dog pile and it's that unannounced weapon that finds you.
Just as young lions 'play' at hunting, dogs play at fighting etc. As a kid we played at 'Smear the <NON-PC term>'. Meaning, run like your life depended on it, dodge, move, stay still and die. You'll see this in football and other sports as well, I think it's something to not underestimate when it comes to keeping alive.
3) If you feel that it is not possible, please state why?
NA
4) What art do you feel offers the best defense and why?
Like most have stated, it's not the art, but the artist.
5) If faced with multiples, would you use an equalizer to aid in your defense? (I'm referring to things such as a gun, blade, or any nearby object)
It's always a gauge of severity of the situation. But yes, multiple attackers definitely raises the bar and the 'alert status' so to speak.
One thing when it comes to multiple attackers is to change the rythm, the distance etc. Even with two attackers, say one at 12 one at 3, same distance, same speed. You kick the first as your legs are 1 1/2 feet longer, uppercut the second a split-second later, this makes it timing rather than 2 direct attacks simultaneously. Obviously there's a load of 'if this happens' that can be said... but, a wise friend once mentioned to me.. train in the same way you would compete. I translate that also to situational things as this, have a few attack at once, watch your control and power, and have a good time learning how to deal with this.
Sorry if I rambled
.
qi-tah
Brown Belt
Good point. Another top reason for staying on yr feet at all costs. Me, i don't feel that i could confidently rely on taking out even one person without fear of retaliation (by either themselves or any lurking mates), so i'd want to keep my skates handy in case things turn ugly.
I guess it comes down to awareness over the whole course of the confrontation... There is a concept from the excellent book "The Soft Science of Road Racing Motorcycles" (by Keith Code) whereby you think of yr attention being a $10 bill that you can spend on concentrating on multiple things in yr environment. The idea is to reduce the number of basic functions you need to pay attention to (like exit lines, mates of yr protagonist who might jump in, yr front-line defence techniques etc) so you can briefly commit 100% focus to an urgent problem when required. In this analogy, i'd probably be spend my $10 around in 50c lots at all times, so i knew the terrain, then switch to checking a few basic options/parameters in the opening phases of a verbal confrontation (up about $2) and then focus almost solely ($8-10) on my opponent if things actually come to blows, with the strategy being to end it as quickly as possible (by "resoloution" or flight) and return to scanning the environment for further trouble. (50c-$2, depending on circs.)
still learning
Senior Master
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2004
- Messages
- 3,749
- Reaction score
- 48
Hello, Yes! Everyone may have a chance to survive an attack by Multiple attackers. ...Reality!
The question is broad, (we do not know type/size/sitution/who/what/where/why?"S) ....and are you in shape to last lenght of the attack? Therefore..depends on YOU!
To say one cannot is wrong! Kenpotex #22- great answers, Doc Jude # 51, Right on!, and Dave Leverrich- I like your answer's too!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
BEST thing is try practiceing in you Dojo. Have two, then three,four or more attackers? ...attack you like on the streets ,as if you were the group fighting one person. Full on...but not full power to hurt your training partners.
NOT sparring style! ....street attacks...anything goes! As the practice goes on? You will learn your weakness and strenghts.
In time....you will learn escaping AS SOON AS POSSIBLE...will be the KEY to survival.
YOU will never always know the type of attackers fighting you? ...some groups NO skills in fighting...others may have more experience than you! ..or just one may be a train fighter and the rest..just followers? ....WEAPONS? um!
The adrenline will kick in...you will get exhausted faster...THINK- ESCAPE!..NEVER GIVE-UP/NEVER SURRENDER...fight back as hard as you can.
This is hard to do....to be more relax in your fight! learn to breathe slower, deeper when you can, stay forcus, beaware of possible weapons/ or things that you can use or they can use against you. Always try to ESCAPE!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pop-up - a good skill to learn. What is it!
crouch/ or bend knees ...pop-up with hands (facing out,one hand on top of other hand.
Strike the nearst/easiest person on attackers shoulders to spin them and clear a path to RUN...This hit must be strong enough to turn that person around. ( if surrounded or cornor before the fists starts to fly!)
It is just only one of the techniques you can use besides NO# 8,456,578 strikes available. (possible strikes X possible NO of attackers X Number of weapons you have available-left hand,right hand, head butts..ect.)
Formula: U + R (run) + F (fas-asap) = LAD (live another day)
(optional) can't run...better learn how to (TYWO)= talk your way out
..........Aloha
The question is broad, (we do not know type/size/sitution/who/what/where/why?"S) ....and are you in shape to last lenght of the attack? Therefore..depends on YOU!
To say one cannot is wrong! Kenpotex #22- great answers, Doc Jude # 51, Right on!, and Dave Leverrich- I like your answer's too!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
BEST thing is try practiceing in you Dojo. Have two, then three,four or more attackers? ...attack you like on the streets ,as if you were the group fighting one person. Full on...but not full power to hurt your training partners.
NOT sparring style! ....street attacks...anything goes! As the practice goes on? You will learn your weakness and strenghts.
In time....you will learn escaping AS SOON AS POSSIBLE...will be the KEY to survival.
YOU will never always know the type of attackers fighting you? ...some groups NO skills in fighting...others may have more experience than you! ..or just one may be a train fighter and the rest..just followers? ....WEAPONS? um!
The adrenline will kick in...you will get exhausted faster...THINK- ESCAPE!..NEVER GIVE-UP/NEVER SURRENDER...fight back as hard as you can.
This is hard to do....to be more relax in your fight! learn to breathe slower, deeper when you can, stay forcus, beaware of possible weapons/ or things that you can use or they can use against you. Always try to ESCAPE!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pop-up - a good skill to learn. What is it!
crouch/ or bend knees ...pop-up with hands (facing out,one hand on top of other hand.
Strike the nearst/easiest person on attackers shoulders to spin them and clear a path to RUN...This hit must be strong enough to turn that person around. ( if surrounded or cornor before the fists starts to fly!)
It is just only one of the techniques you can use besides NO# 8,456,578 strikes available. (possible strikes X possible NO of attackers X Number of weapons you have available-left hand,right hand, head butts..ect.)
Formula: U + R (run) + F (fas-asap) = LAD (live another day)
(optional) can't run...better learn how to (TYWO)= talk your way out
..........Aloha
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
And Still Learning has helped to justify part of one of my Philosophys. Anyone remember my 10 Preceps of Fighter?
kidswarrior
Senior Master
JBrainard
Senior Master
Yes, it is. I've seen it done in street fights.
What it boils down to is that you need to be able to flow from opponent to opponent very quickly and be able to take out each person with one fast technique or a very fast combo.
You also need to be able to take a punch. This may sound obvious but it is important because if your flow is interrupted then the tide could turn against you.
IMHO, groundfighting against multiple opponents sounds like suicide.
I would, but it's not necessary if you're a good enough fighter.
Not trying to sound like a know-it-all, this is just what I've observed.
If you're fighting multiple opponents and have the opportunity to grab some sort of helper, and don't -- You're a moron. And you'll probably get thumped. Seriously thumped.
It doesn't matter how good a fighter you are; it's a simple reality. You've only got so many limbs, and can only focus your efforts in so many directions at once. Weapons are great equalizers... After all, even if you've only got one bullet in a gun, and are being attacked by a mob -- someone has to be the first one who'll get shot. It's amazing how few folks are willing to be that first person...
They're also great force multipliers. Anything you can use to lengthen your reach also multiplies the kinetic energy carried in a single motion of your arm, because the velocity of the `delivery point' is now greater (the further out you go on a revolving disk, the greater the angular velocity of that point, etc.); ah, for the old days when cars had non-retractable antennæ that snapped off readily leaving a nice jagged edge when the top was also snapped off, with plenty of whip...A metal trashcan lid provides both shield and a much harder striking surface if you use it right... and so on.
Your first job is to survive the encounter. Why on earth would anyone hesitate to use a feature of the environment that enhanced their striking power, and more generally, their power to damageespecially in the scenario Mike's OP envisaged. Contrary to the saying, outnumbered doesn't have to mean outgunned...
