Knife Defense and Multiple Attackers

[MJS]

Many arts address this area, although some possibly more than others. I was reading an interesting thread elsewhere, and this subject came up, although the entire thread was not dedicated to this particular subject. There were a few people, mostly of the grappling crowd, that when asked what they do to defend against the above mentioned attack, they stated that they would run, seeing that there really is nothing more to do, and anyone thinking that they'd actually be able to successfully defend against a blade or more than one attacker, was living in fantasy land.

Now, IMHO, this seems like a cop out. Of course, getting away from that situation should be first and foremost on the list, but I like to look at the 'what if' part of training. What if it is impossible to run? What if you have your wife, girlfriend or kids with you? Can you be sure that they'll be able to keep up with your running or are you going to abandon them? What if the attackers catch up to you? These are valid questions, yet they seem dismissed by certain folks.

So here are a few questions to get this thread started. :ultracool

1) Do you feel that it is possible to defend yourself against an edged weapon?

2) Do you feel that it is possible to defend against more than one opponent?

3) Do you train for this? If so how?


Now, IMHO, I think that if someone feels that there is no defense, that they're limiting themselves from reality. Granted, some fights may be 1 on 1, but you really don't know. Its possible to get blindsided by a friend and there you have it...more than one person. I feel that limiting yourself to specifically dealing with just one opponent is limiting your potential of what you really may face. Personally, I'd rather train for a worst case scenario, and have something to fall back on, rather than just say run if confronted with anything outside of the box.

So, to answer my own questions:

1) Yes. The FMAs have given me a much wider assortment of things to choose from. Of course, there are also folks out there such as Karl Tanswell, who seem to have some interesting concepts on the blade, here and here. Are these things the end all be all of kinfe defense? No, but in the event you can't remove yourself from the situation, I'd rather fall back on these things.

2) Sure. Of course, like anything, it needs to be trained. Positioning is key IMO. Using someone as a shield temporarily can buy you some time.

3) Yes. Of course, you'll need to quality gear, some props and some imagination. You can create a 1 on 1 mugging situation, a group attack...pretty much anything.

 

[MarkBarlow]

I'm a big fan of Nike Ryu when confronted with a knife or multiple attackers but I realize that flight is not always an option. We do train against edged weapon attacks and multiple opponents. While I stress that there's hope as long as there is life, I'm also honest enough to tell the students that either of the above mentioned situations are much more difficult to deal with than 1 on 1 with an empty-handed assailant.

 

[Bigshadow]

So here are a few questions to get this thread started. :ultracool

1) Do you feel that it is possible to defend yourself against an edged weapon?

2) Do you feel that it is possible to defend against more than one opponent?

3) Do you train for this? If so how?

1) YES. There are many things to do in controlling an attacker wielding a knife. What needs to be done depends on the shape of the attack.

2) YES. Just as there is a shape to an attack from a single attacker, an attack from multiple attackers has a shape as well. Things to consider, using them as shields (don't throw them away), get them tied up together, and look for opportunities to escape. There are a myriad of things in multiple attacker situations to consider, but that is a start.

3) YES. We setup scenarios where there are multiple attackers. Nothing elaborate just try to get the dynamics as realistic as possible. Also we do scenarios where the attack is toward someone else (ie a loved one) and we have to protect them. I must say, being the protector is far more difficult than just being in a multiple attacker scenario alone.

Something else to think about is at different points along the time-line as the situation unfolds, there are opportunities that are opening and closing as things happen. So, training yourself to be as calm as possible will allow you to see them as they open rather than when they close.

 

[jks9199]

You can defend yourself unarmed against multiple opponents who have blades. The already high chance that you'll be injured goes up astronomically, and the odds are much greater that it'll be a serious injury.

But it's "just" another case of multiple opponents; use the environment, stack 'em... and look for an opportunity to run. One thing -- don't hesitate to do serious harm to them! And if you can acquire one of their knives or another weapon, you boost your odds a bit.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Can't find this story I read....

There is a trainer who trains the police, body guards and others professional's in defending against knife attacks...

in there first day...they have these students (many are martial artist too)...defend against the teachers using a knife.....maybe of 30 students..just 3 survive the attacks...

The point teachers were making....even if you are an expert in knife defense, martial arts....you will get cut, stab, or kill....
If these professionals...gets hurts in class.....?

Do you think....your training..will work? against a knife attack? ...maybe one or two times.....

Better to run (if possible)....create equalizes (your shoes,clothes,pants belt...or purse as weapons)...

You may want to practice this too.....defending against a knife...keep your palms facing you.....better to be cut there than the wrist side of your arms.....you can still turn your arms to attack with!

Aloha ....( we practice knife, club,gun attacks in our system...most of the techniques use is almost the same..)

Practice with blades that have a paint style on the edges...and see how many times you survive without getting cut!

You will find your answers if you were to challenge a few different attackers one by one...or in group....

 

[Bigshadow]

This bears repeating...

don't hesitate to do serious harm to them! And if you can acquire one of their knives or another weapon, you boost your odds a bit.

You cannot hesitate to disable them as necessary. Acquiring a weapon would be very useful, but I wouldn't focus on that as an objective, doing so can cause you to miss something that could help or hurt you. If you get into "Wrassl'n" for a knife, you better be stronger and have better stamina than the attacker and better have eyes in the back of your head. It is better to wait until you can just take a knife... Oh, it is OK to give it back too... when appropriate!

 

[still learning]

Hello, On the streets, or side walks....FACING A REAL KNIFE ATTACK? ....

The fears, adrenline factors...the heart beat...different feelings and the mind goes into a different mode from (CLASS ROOM TRAINING)..

Plus good knife fighters know to hide and use the blade in fashion that is hard to defend against...

Should we learn knife defence? ....Off course...we may need to use it...just that expect to to get cut? ..stab..injury all over...lots of blood...yours

IT may save your life.....better to know how....than know nothing..

Aloha, (running away is the smartest answer...if you can out run knifer..)

PS:Have you seen the "unbreakable umbrella" ...nice defense tool...to carry legally..

 

[Cruentus]

So here are a few questions to get this thread started. :ultracool

1) Do you feel that it is possible to defend yourself against an edged weapon?

2) Do you feel that it is possible to defend against more than one opponent?

3) Do you train for this? If so how?

I usually don't do this but what the hell...

1. Yes, I've done it.

2. Yes, I've done it.

3. Yes.

The how could be lengthy, but I'll try to keep it simple. In a nutshell, when you train a martial arts you are generally training a bunch of attributes and physical capabilities offered within that art. Some people develop great attributes through the martial arts; they can out box, out spar, or out grapple most people, they can take a coin out your hand and replace it with 2 dimes and a nickle, they can bust through 10 cinder blocks, and the list goes on. Then, they get into a fight and it falls apart. I've actually seen it happen more often then not, and it happened to me (luckily I was young enough at the time [in my teens] where the stakes weren't that high at the time). Why?

The reason is because the dynamics of an actual fight are so diverse and different that most martial arts by themselves will not address these. The psychological and environmental factors alone make a fight very different then the ring or the mat. So, like anything, for training one has to step outside of their style, and try to train with these factors in mind. Setting up scenarios, diversifying your skill sets (training with weapons, with multiple partners, etc.) getting your mind thinking along the lines of cheating to win, and limiting your techniques to what is going to work the real world environments and training those. You will find that you will actually be reducing the amount of techniques you have to simple stupid stuff that is reliable, rather then doing what we do in the martial arts which is to learn multiple techniques to see different options.

MMA is great, and it really builds a good set of attributes applicable to real fights. However, to think, "well if someone has a knife, or if there are multiple attackers, I'm screwed anyway, so I won't even address these issues in a training environment" is very 1 dimensional. When we talk about what works in fights, we are really only speaking in terms of probabilities. So yes, the odds are against you if you are unarmed and your attacker is, or if there are multiple opponents. But this does not mean that you can't train for a possible success against those odds. To not train this and shrug it off represents a defeatist attitude, and often represents a desire to have "your method" (whether it be MMA or traditional) be the one with all the possible answers. To address these issues, ego's have to be bagged, and people need to realize that no singular method has all the answers.

I'll leave with a story. I am sure I'll dick up the details, but this is a true story:

A CIA operative during the cold war was captured by 2 KGB agents in Europe. A false meeting was set up, and the 2 agents had the CIA Operator in custody , stripped of all of his weapons besides one blade that he had hidden in his waistband. They had the drop on him with pistols pointed at him. They were asking questions, they had him kneel down, and they were about to kill him. They paused for one second and looked at each other. In that moment that the KGB agents looked at each other, the CIA operative pulled a knife out of his waistband, put one hand on one of the KGB agents pistol, and came down with the knife in between the clavical and trap muscle, let go on the knife and grabbed the gun and shot the second agent while it was still in the first agents hand, then turned the gun on the second agent and finished him off.

Yes, this is an anecdotal story; but there are many stories where the odds are against people, and they prevail. They do so because of their training, and because of the winning, never die mentality needed for survival. That CIA agent was supposed to have died that day. If he thought, "well, I 'm screwed anyway because these are multiple trained guys with guns" he wouldn't have lived through the incident.

In closing, keep your winning mentality, train objectively, and never give up...

C.

 

[tellner]

1) Do you feel that it is possible to defend yourself against an edged weapon?

2) Do you feel that it is possible to defend against more than one opponent?

3) Do you train for this? If so how?

1) Yes. I've done it.
2) Yes. I've done it.

Both 1) and 2) sucked flatus out of stillborn orangutans, and I hope never to repeat the experience. That said, if you don't believe that they are possible you are going to die. It's as simple as that. There are ways to survive and prevail, and you need to go into the fight with the belief that you can win. That's assuming that you were unlucky, careless or encumbered or disabled enough not to get the Hell out of Dodge before the fight started.

3) Some schools and systems are excellent at this, such as Modern Warrior's Bo Fung Do, Systema, Silat, many of the RBSD systems, Krabi Krabong, Krav Maga and similar. Most are just plain lousy at it. You get some techniques to use against knives but no progressive integrated training methods. Multiples are taught along the lines of "Fight this guy. Then that guy. Then the other guy."

I wrote a little about this a few months back, just before my health temporarily went to hell. I'm not sure where the posts are. But here are some things that are signs of a place that is headed in the right direction

Knives

• The use of knives is taught, not just defenses against them
• You are taught to be far away or very close in. Any school which stresses training at the middle or trapping distance for any length of time against the knife should be avoided. And yes, that includes a lot of FMA schools which train repeated passing.
• The attacks aren't all full out thrusts and chops. One of the advantages of a knife is that you don't have to use a lot of power to cause a lot of damage.
• Massive damage, structural failure and overwhelming violence rather than pain compliance as the basis of defense
• A lack of faith in your ability to pluck the knife hand out of the air
• A discussion of emergency first aid supplies that you can carry with you all the time
• An assumption that someone will attack more than once either many times on the same line or in a different direction if the first attack doesn't work
• Control. Control. Control. Of the guy with the knife and the situation. "If you aren't in control you're out of control."

Multiples

• Strong emphasis on footwork
• The eyes for opponents further away, body sensitivity for the ones who are up close
• Constant movement
• A recognition that it's a fight against a group, not a bunch of fights against individuals
• The use of funneling, redirecting, screening, breaking through and similar tactics and a refusal to get bogged down in a slugging match with any single attacker
• Causing damage with every movement
• Making every movement do more than one thing
• "Stick and move! Stick and move!"
• Taking advantage of the chaotic nature of the encounter
• Changing levels from standing to the ground and back again fluidly, frequently and quickly
• Aerobic fitness
• Anaerobic fitness

In either situation or, g-ds please save us, a number of armed attackers you are in a deadly force situation. As long as they're attacking or the weapons are available you are in absolutely reasonable fear for your life. No amount of damage you do is excessive, and there's some doubt that it will be sufficient.

 

[tellner]

Yet another Sign of the Apocalypse:

Cruentus and I are singing in harmony from the same hymnal

Oh, that puts me in mind of what reliable sources tell me was an old KGB test for certain specialized training. The candidate was faced with two instructors. One put in an arm bar. The other held a knife against him. He was asked whether he'd prefer to be stabbed or have his arm broken.

The correct answer?

Not to make that choice but to fight.

 

[newGuy12]

Cruentus and I are singing in harmony from the same hymnal

Yes, and I for one wish to thank you both for great posts!

 

[Rich Parsons]

Many arts address this area, although some possibly more than others. I was reading an interesting thread elsewhere, and this subject came up, although the entire thread was not dedicated to this particular subject. There were a few people, mostly of the grappling crowd, that when asked what they do to defend against the above mentioned attack, they stated that they would run, seeing that there really is nothing more to do, and anyone thinking that they'd actually be able to successfully defend against a blade or more than one attacker, was living in fantasy land.

Now, IMHO, this seems like a cop out. Of course, getting away from that situation should be first and foremost on the list, but I like to look at the 'what if' part of training. What if it is impossible to run? What if you have your wife, girlfriend or kids with you? Can you be sure that they'll be able to keep up with your running or are you going to abandon them? What if the attackers catch up to you? These are valid questions, yet they seem dismissed by certain folks.

So here are a few questions to get this thread started. :ultracool

1) Do you feel that it is possible to defend yourself against an edged weapon?

2) Do you feel that it is possible to defend against more than one opponent?

3) Do you train for this? If so how?


Now, IMHO, I think that if someone feels that there is no defense, that they're limiting themselves from reality. Granted, some fights may be 1 on 1, but you really don't know. Its possible to get blindsided by a friend and there you have it...more than one person. I feel that limiting yourself to specifically dealing with just one opponent is limiting your potential of what you really may face. Personally, I'd rather train for a worst case scenario, and have something to fall back on, rather than just say run if confronted with anything outside of the box.

So, to answer my own questions:

1) Yes. The FMAs have given me a much wider assortment of things to choose from. Of course, there are also folks out there such as Karl Tanswell, who seem to have some interesting concepts on the blade, here and here. Are these things the end all be all of kinfe defense? No, but in the event you can't remove yourself from the situation, I'd rather fall back on these things.

2) Sure. Of course, like anything, it needs to be trained. Positioning is key IMO. Using someone as a shield temporarily can buy you some time.

3) Yes. Of course, you'll need to quality gear, some props and some imagination. You can create a 1 on 1 mugging situation, a group attack...pretty much anything.

I will answer in the normal "Rich" fashion with skill, experience and engineering as my frame of reference

1) Do you feel that it is possible to defend yourself against an edged weapon?

In the absolute No. In the qualified, Yes. I do not think I can defend myself with no injuries against the commited attacker who has time to set up the situation and to take advantage of terran and enviroment and such. It would be easy to get me or anyone in a large public event or crowded bar with some quick multiple shots to the body. i.e. unable to defend myself against all cases.

In the qualified yes, of course I have done it. I have a couple of scars, one on my leg and one on the arm and other times I was lucky or more skilled then the other guy and did not get cut. i.e. I lived and therfore defended my life. But was I able to defend myself from the violence. I know a philophical question.

2) Do you feel that it is possible to defend against more than one opponent?

Once again see above. No and Yes as stated.

Although, I have done it, empty handed against others empty handed, or with bats or gold clubs or with a knife and others with miscellaneous weapons, even being in the middle of ten guys with one bad guy having a gun. I survived. Yes, so I guess I defended my life, but did I defend myself?

That being said, I have faced very few who were skilled or had a plan on how to attack in a group. There was one of the scariest fights I had, Multiple of them, and Only me. We ended up then down then up and then down and then through the plate glass window, and out in the parking lot then towards their car where one did pull a knife and I took it from him with minimum problem. (* Note this is when the police rolled in. They were all cut by the bouncing safety glass and I had rolled so no real cuts onlt road rash et al, and then I have the knife in my hands from them as well as ****** Hang here it is ****** my own knife in my own back pocket. I never had the chance to pull it while in the fight it staid with me through the whole fight (** being a balisong of 8+ inches closed it might have fallen out **) and did not pull it in the fight nor have time, and when I did have time they were moving towards their vehicles. So no real reason to pull it. *)

3) Do you train for this? If so how?

Yes. We train for multiple opponents. We train skill sets that work against one and then against multiples as one gets better and sees more. I have done this before with our own club and friend obviously but as well as with other groups. When I found out it was multiple against one or a few, I took multiple weapons with me, even if I no one asked or the directions were not too. Yes I cheated. Yes I threw the "RULES" out the window. Why? Because if I wanted to improve my training, I started out empty handed and then pull one weapon and then the second weapon and see how well I did in all cases.

It can be fun. It can als lead to injuries with people falling or being thrown into others. But I repeat it can be fun training.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

You can defend yourself unarmed against multiple opponents who have blades. The already high chance that you'll be injured goes up astronomically, and the odds are much greater that it'll be a serious injury.

But it's "just" another case of multiple opponents; use the environment, stack 'em... and look for an opportunity to run. One thing -- don't hesitate to do serious harm to them! And if you can acquire one of their knives or another weapon, you boost your odds a bit.

JKS9199 handled this nicely. Run like crazy, get an equalizer, use your environment, stack them up, take out their leader, etc. Anything is possible and many people have defended themselves against multiple attackers also many, many have received a beat down or worse. Always believe in yourself and give yourself the best chance to improve your position and take advantage of it. Whether that is running, using a car to escape or as a tool, etc.

Just me rambling as usual!

 

[Cruentus]

Yet another Sign of the Apocalypse:

Cruentus and I are singing in harmony from the same hymnal

Oh, that puts me in mind of what reliable sources tell me was an old KGB test for certain specialized training. The candidate was faced with two instructors. One put in an arm bar. The other held a knife against him. He was asked whether he'd prefer to be stabbed or have his arm broken.

The correct answer?

Not to make that choice but to fight.

lol... huh?

 

[tellner]

Your KGB/CIA story put me in mind of the KGB story.

 

[still learning]

Hello, This could be answer ...like mention above with a "yes" or "no" ...depends on person who has excellant skills and quicker reactions...

or the more train you have....the greater the chance of survival....in knife defense training.....

"Loren Christensen" ....once mention if get a chance to grab the knife hand...ALWAYS USE BOTH YOUR HANDS..to hold the knife hand and use the rest of your body to attack with....this makes good sense!

One day bring a real "big knife " to class after you have train with rubber or wooden knives.....

and see how the reactions of the students ..."feel " ...facing a REAL KNIFE? .....the same reactions could be seen with a REAL GUN...too!

One good way to find how you would survive in a group attack....is have a bunch of your student....attack anyway they want too at you....semi-full contact....object to take you down and out of the fight! (keep it the bunch of guys attacking as real as possible...or make pretend you are the bad guy here.....

OH buy them a pizza everytime they win? ....expect to buy alot of pizza's....Again here depends on the skills of the person.....maybe it may be me buying you lots of pizza's.........What is your flavorite kind?

CAN always get lucky too? ..........combination pizza's ....UMM!

In class you can make mistakes over and over....on the streets...there is NO second chance

just either mortician or hospital or both.....

Better to run and go home....with no "puka" (hawaiian word for hole).

"Puka" ( hole) ...a Hawaiian word! If your boat has puka's....it will sink...

Aloha .....puka underwears ....is common ( WORN UNTIL..christmas?)

 

[jks9199]

Ithere are many stories where the odds are against people, and they prevail. They do so because of their training, and because of the winning, never die mentality needed for survival. That CIA agent was supposed to have died that day. If he thought, "well, I 'm screwed anyway because these are multiple trained guys with guns" he wouldn't have lived through the incident.

In closing, keep your winning mentality, train objectively, and never give up...

C.

Attitude or determination or willpower... Whatever you want to call it, that's often the issue that decides a real fight for survival. Whether it's the two girls who turned tables on their attacker, a CIA case agent who looked for and capitalized the opportunity, or whatever other situation -- that determination that YOU will be the one who goes home is what will see you through.

Decide each day that, whatever happens, YOU will be going home at the end of the day. Law enforcement officers talk about "the first rule" or "rule one". The rule is simple -- go home at the end of your shift. The same decision and determination is something that each person needs to make and remake for themselves.

 

[Bigshadow]

Attitude or determination or willpower... Whatever you want to call it, that's often the issue that decides a real fight for survival. Whether it's the two girls who turned tables on their attacker, a CIA case agent who looked for and capitalized the opportunity, or whatever other situation -- that determination that YOU will be the one who goes home is what will see you through.

That is very true! You have to have believe you can survive and go home and have the will to do what it takes.

 

[still learning]

Hello, If you have NO choice but to defend yourself....against a knife attack ...than you do what you need to do to survive....

If one can escape.....this should be the FIRST CHOICE! ..run.....run faster

There is NO second chance if you fail to defend yourself (maybe if injury only) and live to tell about it....

FACING A REAL KNIFE IN A REAL SITUTION.....is so different from a safe classroom eniviroment.....will you be able to be ready in mind and body and spirit?

Only those who face this experience and live to tell about knows the truth..

those who fail...where just buried.....

Better to be safe and alive...than in so much trouble or problems or death...

Ah tomorrow...how many of us we see this? ....live to you are old....254 years old?

Aloha ( still learning and still here....) now consider a senior citizen.....in Hawaii....FISHING....MORE FISHING...

 

[thardey]

While I am a strong advocate of "escape is a win" mentality, I have to be honest with myself that I am not likely to outrun an attacker unless I manage to slow him somehow first. At 250 lbs., and flat-footed, there are very few people who are slower than me. Most of those people are not likely to attack me on a street.

If you add to that scenario the idea of multiple attackers, that means that probably most of the group can catch me if I try to run, and I will be more winded than them when they do catch me. So, I have to make it in their best interest to let me go. Escape is still my goal, but running isn't a good tactical option for me.

Fortunately, the 250lbs I do pack around would come in handy in that situation, but unfortunately, not as a deterrent. I only look like I weigh around 200lbs, which isn't that threatening for a group, or a guy with a knife.

So, all that said, it's likely that if I suckered into that situation, I've already screwed up, and am likely to have to fight my way out. Most of my training for group fights comes from my historical fencing background, because, not only are group fights popular at events (and a ton of fun, too), there are historical tactics to group fighting that can make it more effective, or stupid things you can do to nullify your advantage.

I've also tried these with karate, but some of the tactics run counter to instinct, so the "group fight" scenarios usually end up with no strategies, which makes it much easier as the single defender. (The couple of times I have gotten people to fight as a team, the defender agreed that it got much harder.)

(These are all from my experience, and some history, if you disagree, try it, then get back to me - they're fairly easy to test in a dojo.).

Myth #1: It's better to surround the individual.

Wrong. One person in the middle of a circle of 2-6 people can charge one side of the circle, disrupt it, then disengage and get a run at the opposite side of the circle. Then he can bounce back and forth in a "star" pattern until he finds a weak spot and breaks out. Groups stuck in a "surround" pattern of thinking will then expend huge amounts of energy and time to try to surround the individual again, meaning that the defender only ever has to deal with 2 people at a time, at most, and he can often choose which two. (The weakest, if he's smart.)

The better system is to be in "single rank". This way, the defender has to deal with more weapons at the same time, and it is much harder, and much more intimidating to try to disrupt the line. It takes a lot more discipline, but allows more teamwork. This way the group can decide, by how they order their line, who is most likely to face the defender. It's most effective if you can back the defender into a corner.

If you don't believe me, look at basic military strategies over history. It's not worth weakening your line in order to surround your enemy. If you can do both, great.

Myth #2: As a group, it's a waste of time to "plan" an attack.

Wrong. Without a pre-determined set of "roles" for each of the combatants, the defender gets to pick those roles for you, meaning you've given up the control of the battle in favor of haste. Communication breaks down in a group under pressure, so you can't rely on it during the fight. Without these "roles" it's much easier for the defender to limit the fight to a couple of individuals, while the rest are running, trying to catch up, and getting in each other's way.

I know this is a thread about defending against groups, but I think someone here said "If you want to defend against a knife, learn how to use a knife."

I say, "If you want to defend against a group, learn how to fight as a group."