More on loyalty and respect

[tellner]

Splitting this off from another thread

There are two parts to this, martial arts and loyalty. Please bear with me because all of this is completely honest and straight from the heart. The two lessons go together. The second part answers the OP a little more directly.

I. Martial Arts

This isn't the Sacred Blood of Jesus.

It's not Ineffable Wisdom which we must beg humbly to be permitted to learn.

It's not "connection with the Warrior Spirit". If you want to Embody the Warrior Spirit the Marines are recruiting.

It's just martial arts, a collection of methods for fighting and violence some more efficient than others.

This is no more or less special than cooking, flower arranging or mountain climbing. Anything that you invest time and dedication in can be a vehicle for personal growth. To be good at something requires that you put yourself into it. To really master anything difficult requires that you get your head screwed on straighter - not always completely straight, just straighter - and get rid of some of the issues that get in the way of your peak performance. This is especially true when it's something that has to be performed under pressure in real time. Flow state and casual competence aren't easy.

The guys who teach it aren't any wiser than anyone else. In fact, a lot of the time they're handicapped by spending too many years drinking the Kool Aid and believing their own marketing hype. Their competence at their trade is to be respected. If you're not a damn fool you'll take advantage of their experience. Unless they have something else that's all they're due - attention and hard work in class like a good student of any discipline and whatever both of you agree is fair compensation for their time.

That's a proper student-teacher relationship.

If a teacher wants more he has to give more, and it has to be something that the student values as much as what's asked in return.

II. Respect and Loyalty

The best you can hope for in the long run is get out of something what you put into it. If you want skill you have to put in the grunt. If you want to have a good marriage you have to work at being a good spouse. And success is never guaranteed. If you want respect and loyalty you have to give them and you have to return them.

What do we mean by respect and loyalty? That's the tricky part.

Here's what I mean:

First, I owe a teacher respectful attention in class. I owe him the fee we've agreed on. I am obligated to make a good effort so that the quality of other students' workouts is not adversely affected. Everyone involved deserves good treatment, fairness and human consideration.

That's it. Period.

Over time other relationships may develop. They are governed by the principles of reciprocity and good faith that operate in all personal relations. In particular, loyalty and respect must be given at least as much as they are demanded. A teacher has to be there for the benefit of the students at more than the other way around.

What you and just2kicku seem to mean by those words is close to what the OP is worried about. Now, please correct me if I'm wrong.

The way you guys seem to look at it, a student is required to give a martial arts teacher control over his actions away from class. The scope and number may vary, but the teacher has a right to interfere, to forbid or permit and to expect to be obeyed in things that happen outside the walls of the school. Furthermore, the System or the Organization may expect you to alter otherwise legal and above-board matters in your life that are not directly connected with its business. It may dictate what you do when you are not attending its functions or using its services.

What do we have here?

There's a group whose members know something about fighting. You pay one of them money. You go to his place of business, listen to what he says in class and practice the way he tells you to. In return he agrees to teach you. So far, so good. But he's also implicitly granted authority to make decisions for you outside of class, gets imbued with wisdom beyond the skills you've contracted for and which he may well not posess and is treated in ways which reinforce this often-erroneous perception.

Where is the loyalty that goes the other way? In what ways does he return the respect you give him other than by deigning to take something of value from you? You give obedience and sacrifice part of your personal integrity. In return you are allowed to hang around and submit to arbitrary - sometimes terribly arbitrary - authority. The hidden costs can keep piling up, sometimes to the point where you give everything and get nothing. And since you've invested so much time and effort in the habit of obedience it can be very difficult to regain a balanced adult perspective.

Here's a few examples. I swear by everything I hold dear that they are true.

Two teachers in the same system in my town hit financial rocks and sunk spectacularly within a few years of each other. They took a bunch of their students down with them. How?

The first one involved his students in his external business affairs. At first it was just helping out in minor ways. More advanced students were invited to buy products. Ones with higher rank and more time invested were given hardcore pitches and recruited to be the next level of his various MLM schemes. Black belts were encouraged to invest personal savings in his business ventures. The longer they were in the more they were in for emotionally. The further in they were emotionally, the greater the demands of "respect" and "loyalty". I was younger and dumber and got as far as the early stages of the MLM crap before coming to my senses and bailing.

The second took a more direct route to his students' bank accounts demanding money to show "trust" and "loyalty" and promising to invest it in other sure things. He ended up in jail. Praise be the Name I never got sucked into that one.

Another used his martial arts school to recruit for the cult he was part of. It wasn't mentioned at first. Part way through the colored belts it was explained that the martial art got its effectiveness and coolth from these scientifically proven methods. You would really benefit from buying these books and taking these courses. It was next to impossible to reach Black Belt without joining up. You signed on to learn how to punch and kick. To progress you had to respect his beliefs without him respecting yours, to give up control of your spiritual life in return for minor status perks and some personal attention.

More recently I got involved with a fairly rare and very interesting martial arts tradition. Really good stuff. But a few months in the beginners were sat down and given The Talk. We weren't just signing up for instruction. We were being given the chance to become bushi. And we had to be bushi every moment of every day. But we weren't worthy of the honor of being part of the Tradition. We could be dumped at any time for any reason or no reason. If we worked hard we might, MIGHT be worthy of actually joining the group, signing an oath in blood (I swear that is true) and being accepted. We couldn't tell anyone about our membership and practice, not our wives - no women allowed of course - not our parents, not even our Confessors in church. No matter what a Senior ordered we had to obey. Nothing else mattered. If you had physical conditions which made it impossible to do everything exactly accordint to spec it was your responsibility, we were told, to get corrective surgery. Examples were brought up of students who had done exactly that. One had a bad result and had to give up martial arts entirely, but his willingness to go under the knife in order to be a proper student was praised.

Much was made of how a tiger had escaped within a few miles of where the parent group was training. The teacher sent the students out to find it and kill it with their bos. It didn't matter that the tiger would certainly have killed several and crippled more. It didn't matter that it was a rare endangered creature and that killing it would have robbed the world of something precious as well as being a crime. All that mattered was that they would do whatever he said out of loyalty to the Tradition and "respect" for the teacher. They all dutifully trooped out and tried to sneak up on a cat in the forest. None of them said anything reasonable like "Dude, you have just GOT to stop smoking that Mexican rope before you go to work."

I asked a few questions to be sure I understood exactly what they meant. I thanked the teachers for making everything so clear. I left so fast that my body probably grew shorter and heavier through relativistic Lorentz transformations.

What's going on in all of these?

1. Someone signs up to learn a set of skills in exchange for money and time
2. The time and money he or she puts in represents an ever-increasing sunk cost
3. Nebulous qualities like "respect", "loyalty", "duty" and "honor" take on new and specialized meanings outside of their normal range.
4. In the name of these things the student is trained to accept ever-increasing degrees of school control over his or her personal decisions
5. The loyalty, respect and duty all go one way, from student to teacher. The teacher doesn't have to return them.

It's back to the little leather bikini. If someone wants to make those decisions for me and take my money into the bargain he'd better be providing something something of equal value. This is a matter of basic human consideration. If the Style wants to tell me what I can or can't do in my spare time it can pay my mortgage. If an athletic coach or my coach's coach wants me to attend his church as a condition for more coaching he can damned well show respect and attend mine. If he wants me to risk my life or health or break the law out of an instilled sense of crushing obligation he can go to hell.

 

[Twin Fist]

your experiences with a couple crazies does not entitle you to pee all over what is, when done right, and very deep, meaningfull relationship.

a TEACHER has not only the right, but the obligation to at least try to intervene IF they see the student is going down the wrong path. We teach lethal skills, thats POWER

we have an obligation to make sure that the people who learn from us wont abuse that power. So yeah, we should be at least interested in what kind of people our students are.

Now our position as teacher gives US power, and we should never abuse it. I dont talk religion in class, that would be abusing my power. i dont talk politics in class, same thing. i would never encourage investment or try to sell products. Thats abusing my position.

I have never met instructors as nutty as the three examples you list. Not in 24 years

that you do may have more to do with YOU than with martial arts.......

 

[jarrod]

i don't think tellner was peeing on anything, i think he's just advising sensible moderation in the teacher/student relationship.

unfortunately, some good martial artists are bad people. buyer beware.

i do agree that an instructor does have the right or even obligation to boot someone who is misusing what they are taught. i don't think that's being contested.

jf

 

[tellner]

i don't think tellner was peeing on anything, i think he's just advising sensible moderation in the teacher/student relationship.

unfortunately, some good martial artists are bad people. buyer beware.

i do agree that an instructor does have the right or even obligation to boot someone who is misusing what they are taught. i don't think that's being contested.

Precisely, Jarrod. Moderation, mutual respect and good sense are always important. Perspective and self-respect, not an inflated ego but basic self-respect, are key.

A black belt does not make a person wise or good. A bad person is more likely to demand unreasonable things in order to victimize others. A good one wouldn't think of making those demands. The warning signs are the same as in any other relationship.

The teacher has the right and responsibility to choose whom he teaches and stop teaching someone who he feels is a danger to others. Respect and integrity go both ways. They have to go both ways. That's the one important lesson.

 

[myusername]

Of course the instructor has a right to refuse to teach anybody he wishes. It is the instuctors class. I don't believe that this being contested in Tellners posts. What is being contested is whether an instructor has the right to interfer with their students lives outside of the dojo/dojang. From the other thread people were talking about asking their instructor permission to go and train elsewhere! As I said in the other thread this seems as outdated, stuffy and as ethically unsound to me as asking a man permission to marry his daughter! By asking, it implies that the instructor has the power to deny permission. It is giving up your free will to somebody else.

I have full respect for my instructors in both jujutsu and TKD. I respect them by giving my full concentration and 100% effort in every class.

 

[myusername]

I think that my thoughts in this post apply to this thread as well.

Excellent points Tellner. Reading this thread I cringe at the idea of asking an instructors permission to train in another style. It seems as outdated, stuffy and as ethically unsound as asking a man permission to marry his daughter! By asking, it implies that the instructor has the power to deny permission. It is you giving up your free will.

People mentioned that they would ask out of politeness but that implies that they are asking in the secure knowledge that the instructor will definately grant permission anyway. It implies that even though they are asking they will do what they want regardless! I would argue that as well as being rather pointless this is more disrespectful than not asking in the first place!

I left my TKD class and after a while began training in other disciplines. By doing so I have found a wonderful jujutsu class. I have now returned to my TKD class and I am still training in the jujutsu. I did not feel the need to ask either instructor for their blessing to train in either style. This is not because I disrespect my teachers but because I respect myself. I have a tremendous amount of respect for my instructors. In regards to the TKD, the fact that I left and went out and sampled what was out there and still returned means that my instructor is obviously very, very good. It is clear from my actions that I have a lot of respect for his skills and wish to learn more from him.

Martial Arts isn't just a commodity to me. For me personally, it is shaping up to be a way of living and thinking. However, my journey in martial arts is my story and no one elses. It is not my instructors journey it is mine. I very much doubt my instructors would expect me to ask them for their permission to live my own life.

 

[Sandstorm]

I find this a most interesting subject. I am a firm believer in expanding your horizons and knowledge, both as student AND instructor. I, too, have encountered the type of instructor who wants you to saty with them and them alone. Needless to say, I opted out immediately.
As for instructors baiting their students and getting them to submit fund?? Sickening. Respect comes where it's due. Loyalty is an interesting concept overall. The loyalty one shows in class towards the very person who is teaching is a given. As is the loyalty the instructor lays down toward the students who pay for his/her instruction.

Thanks for this post, Tellner. Very insightful.

 

[Sukerkin]

I throw my hat in the ring with the core thrust of what Tellner laid out so well above too.

That 'core' is that whilst there is nothing intrinsicly wrong in an instructor being a decent human being and wishing to advise a student (of theirs) that they see going off the rails n their life outside of the dojo, that is very distinct from the sort of 'cultish' obedience demanded from students that has been spoken about.

I think that really, altho' on the surface it seems very different, what TF said above is the same thing. It's encapsulated in these words of his:

Now our position as teacher gives US power, and we should never abuse it. I dont talk religion in class, that would be abusing my power. i dont talk politics in class, same thing. i would never encourage investment or try to sell products. Thats abusing my position.

For myself, the only way I'd say I differ from most of the comments on the posts above is that I would ask my sensei if I wanted to go and train with someone else. That's common courtesy, as I've been brought up to see it, and the same would apply to any teacher that I was paying privately for lessons in anything {no, not that sort of private teacher :lol:}.

 

[myusername]

For myself, the only way I'd say I differ from most of the comments on the posts above is that I would ask my sensei if I wanted to go and train with someone else. That's common courtesy, as I've been brought up to see it

But what if he refused? Would you still go and train any way or would you stay and not do what you wanted?

I think there is a big difference between asking an instructors opinion and asking permission. If after I made my intentions known and either of my instructors gave me some advice I would take heed as I would respect their opinion very very much and appreciate the input but if they forbade me from doing it they would not be the people I thought they were.

 

[Sukerkin]

What would I do if the request resulted in a refusal? That would depend a great deal on what his/her reasons were.

 

[myusername]

What would I do if the request resulted in a refusal? That would depend a great deal on what his/her reasons were.

May I ask what reasons you would find acceptable for him to refuse his permisson for you to train elsewhere?

 

[Sukerkin]

That's a whole basketful of "What if's?", MuN; the possible variations are huge .

Off the top of my head, tho', taking my current training circumstances as the base, the primary sort of thing that would be a satisfactory reason would be something akin to my sensei needing me to stay to help with teaching or that, in his opinion, what I wanted to go and do would be detrimental to my iai.

The former of those is a result of my loyalty to him and a sense of obligation to 'pay back' what I have learned. The latter is simply because my iai is what I am interested in and I'm not going to dilute it just for the sake of curiosity in another style.

 

[myusername]

That's a whole basketful of "What if's?", MuN; the possible variations are huge .

Off the top of my head, tho', taking my current training circumstances as the base, the primary sort of thing that would be a satisfactory reason would be something akin to my sensei needing me to stay to help with teaching or that, in his opinion, what I wanted to go and do would be detrimental to my iai.

The former of those is a result of my loyalty to him and a sense of obligation to 'pay back' what I have learned. The latter is simply because my iai is what I am interested in and I'm not going to dilute it just for the sake of curiosity in another style.

Fair point, when talking of the hypothetical the conversation could go in any number of directions.

I also agree that the reasons that you did come up with off the top of your head would be very excellent reasons to stay and not to do what you originally wanted. I would probably stay for the same reasons. My personal problem with it would be the idea of his refusing his permission. To forbid someone to do something that they wanted for the above reasons is very different than asking them not to do something because of the above.

Maybe I just don't get this because I haven't been training with the same person for many, many years therefore I don't comprehend this type of relationship. I concede that I may actually think along the same lines as yourself after a few more years but at the moment I can't see myself ever asking permission to move on or to train elsewhere. I can see myself asking for advice, counsel or opinion but asking for permission is something else entirely. Time will tell!

 

[Sukerkin]

Ah, I see that we might have been approaching the question from slightly different angles.

It has been my experience that most people with years on their side and 'seniority' of position have learned the lesson that 'fobidding' someone to do something generally engenders the opposite impulse.

In my posts above I have been speaking of a circumstance wherein the question was asked through courtesy and the answer is given with equal courtesy.

The difference in reaction I would have is very marked between "No you can't!" and "I ask you not to because ..." .

 

[Guardian]

This is a very interesting post. I have never met people listed in the initial post like this either, not to this extreme at least, some have come close, but not quite.

Most here have hit on respect and loyalty already, not much more to say on it, it's a two way street definitely.

 

[Twin Fist]

I dont know that there is one. Thats the mutual part of the respect. You have to respect the student's wishes, as much if not more than they have to respect yours.

i cant imagine any teacher I have ever had refusing to give his blessing on a student leaving to study something else. For that matter, I cant imagine anyone that isnt a nutter doing it.

By the same token, i have always told my instructors "thanks, but I am gonna go do something else" whenever I left a school.

It isnt just a business. A good martial art school is more akin to a family than a business.

May I ask what reasons you would find acceptable for him to refuse his permisson for you to train elsewhere?

 

[Sandstorm]

It isnt just a business. A good martial art school is more akin to a family than a business.

I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly

 

[myusername]

Ah, I see that we might have been approaching the question from slightly different angles.

It has been my experience that most people with years on their side and 'seniority' of position have learned the lesson that 'fobidding' someone to do something generally engenders the opposite impulse.

In my posts above I have been speaking of a circumstance wherein the question was asked through courtesy and the answer is given with equal courtesy.

The difference in reaction I would have is very marked between "No you can't!" and "I ask you not to because ..." .

I dont know that there is one. Thats the mutual part of the respect. You have to respect the student's wishes, as much if not more than they have to respect yours.

i cant imagine any teacher I have ever had refusing to give his blessing on a student leaving to study something else. For that matter, I cant imagine anyone that isnt a nutter doing it.

By the same token, i have always told my instructors "thanks, but I am gonna go do something else" whenever I left a school.

It isnt just a business. A good martial art school is more akin to a family than a business.

Agree with both you guys about the importance of being repectful when leaving a school but why ask permission if you are certain in the knowledge that it will be granted or that if they downright refused you would leave anyway?

If you have already made your decision is it not just as respectful to thank the instructor for their time and let them now that you wont be training with them for a while? It seems more honest that way. And if you are not certain of the decision is it not just as respectful to say something along the lines of "I've been thinking a lot about moving on and trying this style/school for a while, what do you think?" Is asking permission really necessary to be courteous?

Like I said my feelings on this may very much be influenced by the fact I have only really been training seriously in the martial arts for a year and as such may not be fully understanding of the bond you have with your instructors. I recognise that my feelings on a subject like this may change in the future so no disrespecting your opinions is intended.

 

[Twin Fist]

respect

instructors are just someone you hire

TEACHERS give what you pay for and so much more, that deserves some extra respect.

put it this way, even if you KNOW your wife will not have a problem with you going to play poker with your friends, you STILL ask her if it is ok.

why?

respect.

 

[Sukerkin]

I'm not certain but I think you may be getting snagged on this concept of 'asking permission' as being some sort of enforced servility rather than mutual civility.

I'm not all that much older than yourself (okay, 50% older but let's not quibble ) but I have seen the politeness and mutual agreement which is the lubricant for all social bonds (contracts) and interaction leak away very rapidly in the past couple of decades. It seems that ordinary people are no longer growing up learning those traits that used to be commonplace; they've been drowned by the torrent of 'me first, last and foremost' - oh my, I've gotten old haven't I ?

To me there is a tacit understanding that exists between any adults who have an agreement between them. That understanding is founded upon some fairly fundamamental, old fashioned, principles; such as your word being worth more than the paper it's written on and that both parties will act in good faith with and for the other.

So, if I go to my sensei and ask him if he has any objections to my going to train at another school, say, whilst remaining his student, there are certain unspoken understandings already in place between us that make the interaction pass smoothly and without acrimony.

I know that I could very easily just go and train elsewhere in another art and never even mention it but that would be disrespectful to my sensei who has taken the time and trouble to teach me. It would be detrimental to myself also as it would feel to me as if I was sneaking off behind his back (additionally, in itself that is disrespectful to him as I am implying that he would not have the good grace to accept what my wishes were on this matter).

I'm not making a very good stab at explaining this . We don't really have the depth of terms to discuss this in English. Which is odd as we do have the concepts (or we did). The Japanese would have no trouble with threading through this thorny path at all - they even have the words for it.

The bottom line, expressed very baldly, is that my sensei has the right to expect that I will do him the honour of making the request to his face and phrasing it such that it is not presented as a fait accomplis. On my part, I have the right to expect that, unless there are some good reasons why the course of action I want to follow is detrimental to my training in his art, he will not stand in my way.

To me this is very different from my just going off and doing as I wish and it is a small facet of the ties of duty, mutual obligation and mutual respect that go towards building a civilised society. That's a big leap from the original question, I know, but it is something I feel quite passionate about and feel that the loss of it is symptomatic of what is going wrong with how things are failing to work at present in our technologically modern world.

... {wanders off to rail at the lightning}