Loyalty

[Aniela13]

Hey all...there may be a thread on this that I haven't found, so forgive me if I missed one!

I trained for 12 years in EPAK and earned a 1st degree black belt before leaving for college (where the nearest Kenpo school is 3 hours away); this year I have begun training at a Cha San Ryu dojo near my school (after taking a 2-year hiatus from MA), and while I love it, a few questions are bothering me.

Stylistically, some things are very different--I am an American-trained martial artist learning a Japanese system, so I expected this. For instance, at my last test I broke a board (which we never did at home), and I have learned a "forward stance" as opposed to a "guard/fighting stance" (which we didn't even differentiate at home). These things I have accepted, because I'm certainly not going to go into someone's dojo and ask them to train me, then turn around and tell them they're doing it wrong.

I suppose my issue arises with little things--this morning I realized that my gear bag (which I have been using for 14 years) is starting to wear thin with some holes, but part of me is loathe to purchase one from my new school. My instructors here allow me (and want me) to continue wearing my Kenpo black belt, and once in a while Sensei will ask me how I was taught to do something before--in all, I have absolutely no complaints about my new school. I suppose therein lies the problem.

Is it disloyal to my first instructors and first system to "convert" wholeheartedly to my new dojo and its way of doing things? I absolutely love Cha San Ryu and the people I get to be with through my studies of it, but is it wrong to unswervingly adopt their way of standing/training/fighting? I feel like there should be a better way to express this question, but hopefully you guys will know what I mean....

Thanks!
~Ani

 

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

I don't see it as a question of loyalty. When you go to a new dojo, you should start out like everyone else: a newbie. Just because you hold a black belt in one martial art doesn't mean you hold a black belt in all of them. You probably have an advantage over most people since you could probably get a firm grasp of the basics in the other martial arts, but you're not a master of them.
You need to realize that when you walk into that dojo, it's not the one you were at back home. It's a totally different one, and they aren't affiliated, you need to adopt their customs. I applaud you for trying to be loyal to your old dojo, but alienating yourself from your current one would be counterproductive.

Remember, just because you're learning something new doesn't mean you have to forget the old, you just have to know that the old can't be compared to the new, or vice versa.

 

[Aniela13]

I applaud you for trying to be loyal to your old dojo, but alienating yourself from your current one would be counterproductive.

Agreed...and well put I think my bigger concern is alienating myself from my old one, because I can really see myself moving down here permanently just to be able to continue training with these people, but the principle's the same nonetheless!

 

[girlbug2]

Learning a new martial art does not make you disloyal to the previous martial art. It doesn't mean you have to give up the previous martial art either. You can do both...many martial artists do cross train.

When I started Krav Maga last year I did not show up wearing my green belt from EPAK (long story there), I showed up as a white belt and did not expect to be treated any differently from the other white belts; in fact I told nobody about my previous history for that reason. It has worked out well that way, it helped me to mentally separate what I learned from one system from he other. I was able to put myself in the mental state of "Now I practice my Krav Maga" when I was there, and someday when I can get back to EPAK training I will put on my uniform and be in the mental state of "Now I practice my Kenpo". All my previous training is there, safe and ready for when I can resume it again.

 

[jks9199]

Did you lose your connection to your high school when you started college? Or your hometown just because you relocated for school?

You'll always have the same sort of connection to your first school. But nothing prevents you from forming new ties at the new dojo.

 

[tellner]

Would it be "disloyal" to tennis if you took up bowling?

 

[just2kicku]

In our school if any black belt wants to take up another martial art they will always ask our Grand Masters permission. He always gives his blessing, it's just showing respect to your teacher. Even when we get students from other arts, he always asks if they have permission from their prior instructor.

So if you're having these feelings, maybe you should make the call to your teacher and give him/her the heads up that you're taking something else. I don't think you would want them to find out a different way then from you, maybe they'll feel betrayed maybe they won't, but at least they got it from you.

I honestly believe that any instructor would be fine with you adding something else to your arsenal. Our instructor always tells new students to learn it our way, put your old teachings in your back pocket, don't forget them. And once you've learned how we do it then start taking it out of your back pocket and adding it.

I know that if I ever want to take up something else my teacher would not have a problem with it, I think it makes a well rounded MAist. That's just my opinion, hope it helps.
Joe

 

[tellner]

Just2kicku, I'm sorry to say that that is one of the most depressing things I have heard in a long time. Somewhere along the way the martial arts world lost its collective sense of perspective. Using loaded words like "Master" was a big part of the problem. I'd be in favor of giving ten swift kicks to the tender parts of any martial arts student who calls his teacher "Master", twenty for "Grandmaster" and fifty or sixty to the bloated egos which demand grandiose terms like that.

• 
  [*]You're learning a set of athletic skills in a club.
  [*]The guy with the funny clothes is a coach.
  [*]You're a free, mentally competent adult human being who is paying good money to enjoy a hobby.
  [*]That means you do what you perceive as being in your own best interest.

If you want to add another hobby that's your decision. If it makes you progress a bit more slowly in the first one the only question is whether your ultimate joy and personal fulfillment suffer as a result. The head coach may decide that he doesn't want your business. That's his decision. But for crissake, man, you're not a freaking slave cringing while he asks his owner's permission to breathe.

 

[Aniela13]

In our school if any black belt wants to take up another martial art they will always ask our Grand Masters permission. He always gives his blessing, it's just showing respect to your teacher. Even when we get students from other arts, he always asks if they have permission from their prior instructor.

So if you're having these feelings, maybe you should make the call to your teacher and give him/her the heads up that you're taking something else. I don't think you would want them to find out a different way then from you, maybe they'll feel betrayed maybe they won't, but at least they got it from you.

I honestly believe that any instructor would be fine with you adding something else to your arsenal. Our instructor always tells new students to learn it our way, put your old teachings in your back pocket, don't forget them. And once you've learned how we do it then start taking it out of your back pocket and adding it.

I know that if I ever want to take up something else my teacher would not have a problem with it, I think it makes a well rounded MAist. That's just my opinion, hope it helps.
Joe

When I initially left for college I asked my instructor if he knew of anyone nearby he would prefer that I train with; when he said he did not, he also told me I was free to do as I wanted.

I did start Cha San Ryu expecting to be a white belt, but my instructors here believe that, once you have earned a black belt, to wear another rank would be stripping you of the rank you have earned, so they asked me to wear my black. It's just become an interesting transition as I've passed beyond the beginner stages and begun more advanced material again

~Ani

 

[searcher]

There is no disloyalty if you are not feeling disloyal, simple as that. I have trained in several different styles and I will continue to do so. Am I disloyal? No! I am expanding my knowledge and making myself a better MAist. I take what I need form the school I am in and while there I train the same way they train, but I never stop practicing what I have learned previous. If we stop learning new stuff we will get stale and wither.

Don't give it a second thought. See how they do it and make comparisons in your own mind with what you have already learned. It will take you farther than you could ever imagine.


BTW-I require my BB students to take up another style. I tell them that I wnat them to see how others do it in comparison to how I do it. If they don't want to keep going in another style, they are always welcomed back into my school. But they have to share what they learned. You can always find good stuff from everybody.

 

[just2kicku]

When I initially left for college I asked my instructor if he knew of anyone nearby he would prefer that I train with; when he said he did not, he also told me I was free to do as I wanted.




He said you were free to do as you wanted. There is no disloyalty in that, just remember your "roots" sort a speak and keep in touch with him. Old instructors always want to know how their students are doing in other arts.
Joe

 

[just2kicku]

Just2kicku, I'm sorry to say that that is one of the most depressing things I have heard in a long time. Somewhere along the way the martial arts world lost its collective sense of perspective. Using loaded words like "Master" was a big part of the problem. I'd be in favor of giving ten swift kicks to the tender parts of any martial arts student who calls his teacher "Master", twenty for "Grandmaster" and fifty or sixty to the bloated egos which demand grandiose terms like that.

• 
  
  [*]You're learning a set of athletic skills in a club.
  [*]The guy with the funny clothes is a coach.
  [*]You're a free, mentally competent adult human being who is paying good money to enjoy a hobby.
  [*]That means you do what you perceive as being in your own best interest.

If you want to add another hobby that's your decision. If it makes you progress a bit more slowly in the first one the only question is whether your ultimate joy and personal fulfillment suffer as a result. The head coach may decide that he doesn't want your business. That's his decision. But for crissake, man, you're not a freaking slave cringing while he asks his owner's permission to breathe.

Tellner, maybe in your school you call your instructor "Man, Dude or Bro" but we respect our instructor. For 40+ years in the MA, if Sijo Emperado wants to call him Grandmaster who are we to argue.

After a while, the people from in the dojo are ohana (family) that is why we ask if we are to learn something else. It's not slavery, it's courtesy and respect.

 

[BrandonLucas]

I agree with what everyone else has said so far, in regards to this not being an issue of loyalty. You have moved to a new location, so the choice to find another school has already been made when you decided to move...which is a good thing. So, it's not like you're deserting anyone for anyone else here.

I think the issue here is change. Change can be a hard thing to accept and adapt to. To expand on what jks9199 was saying, it's sometimes a sad thing when we move on in life...we miss the way things were before, that we've become accustomed to. Keep in mind, though, that you had to start as a newbie at your other school, too, and that turned out well for you. Just concentrate on adapting to your new school...and that doesn't mean you have to throw out what you learned before. Just go with the flow of things. When in Rome...

And I agree that it wouldn't be a bad idea to get in touch with your old instructor and voice your concerns to him. What could it hurt? If he told you that you were free to do as you wish (as any good instructor should) then there shouldn't be anything to feel guilty about. Even so, it never hurts to talk things out.

And, just to throw this out there, I've always found it respectful to get my instructor's opinion on crosstraining other arts. Of course, I'm a person of free will and can choose to train in something else or not, but it's more of a respect thing. And, on top of that, since my instructor obviously knows more about the art than I do, he has a better insight as to what would help me in the areas that I'm weakest. In highschool, he encouraged me to wrestle, but worked with me in class to transition my fighting stance...it was hard not to want to face my opponent in a half wrestling half TKD fighting stance.

A good instructor won't hold you back from building on your strengths and strengthening your weaknesses. It's just a gesture of respect to let them know what you're doing...and to get as much knowledge as you can...not that he (or she) would expect you to cower at their feet. I think that's what just2kicku was saying.

 

[tellner]

Tellner, maybe in your school you call your instructor "Man, Dude or Bro" but we respect our instructor. For 40+ years in the MA, if Sijo Emperado wants to call him Grandmaster who are we to argue.

After a while, the people from in the dojo are ohana (family) that is why we ask if we are to learn something else. It's not slavery, it's courtesy and respect.

The Glove and the Lions by James Leigh Hunt​

King Francis was a hearty king, and loved a royal sport,
And one day, as his lions fought, sat looking on the court.
The nobles filled the benches, with the ladies in their pride,
And 'mongst them sat the Count de Lorge, with one for whom he signed:
And truly 'twas a gallant thing to see that crowning show,
Valor and love, and a king above, and the royal beasts below.

Ramped and roared the lions, with horrid laughing jaws;
They bit, they glared, gave blows like beams, a wind went with their paws;
With wallowing might and stifled roar they rolled on one another,
Till all the pit with sand and mane was in a thunderous smother;
The bloody foam above the bars came whisking through the air;
Said Francis then, "Faith, gentlemen, we're better here than there."

De Lorge's love o'er heard the King, a beauteous lively dame,
With smiling lips and sharp bright eyes, which always seemed the same;
She thought, The Count my lover is brave as brave can be;
He surely would do wondrous things to show his love of me;
King, ladies, lovers, all look on; the occasion is divine;
I'll drop my glove, to prove his love; great glory will be mine.

She dropped her glove, to prove his love, then looked at him and smiled;
He bowed, and in a moment leaped among the lions wild:
The leap was quick, return was quick, he has regained his place,
Then threw the glove, but not with love, right in the lady's face.
"By Heaven," said Francis, "rightly done!" and he rose from where he sat;
"No love," quoth he, "but vanity, sets love a task like that."​

Martial arts uniforms should come with a copy of this poem.

When I did Japanese martial arts the teacher was called "Sensei" which loosely translates to "One who went there first" or "teacher". When real eighth and ninth dans came over from Japan they were "Sensei".

Fencing? It was "Mister Skrudlik" or "Mister Jensen" or "Coach". Even in more formal settings it was "This is my fencing teacher, the Maitre des Armes Loren Higley."

When I did Chinese martial arts and Kajukenbo/WHKD the teacher was called "Sifu". Teacher. My teacher's teacher was "Si Gung", from the same root as "Grandfather".

Eskrima? The teacher was called "Guro" which means "teacher".

Muay Thai? "Ajarn" or "Kru". "Teacher" again.

The short time I spent at Team Quest before cancer took a chunk out of my training the guy teaching was "Rob" or "Coach". Once in a great while the guy teaching was "Randy" or, once again, "Coach".

Now I do Silat. The teacher is called "Guru" which, surprise, surprise, is the word for "teacher".

My first Silat teacher has always been "Brandt".

What do I call my current martial arts teacher? Well, after sixteen years plus years I figure we're on a first-name basis. So in class he's "Guru", but the rest of the time he's "Steve". When we're doing weapons his manner changes. It's hard not to call him "Sergeant" because those three chevrons and three rockers sort of fade into view.

My wife studied with one of the best students Guro Inosanto ever turned out, Rick Faye. I believe the children in the kids' class call him "Guro". But he insists that everyone else call him "Rick".

Do you see a pattern here? I respect the hell out of these men and women. To a large degree it's because they don't demand a florid display of self-abasement and ornate flattery. If they did I might bite my tongue and humor them if what they had was Sinanju with liberal sprinklings of the Secret Lost Book of Shaolin and the unexpurgated Necronomicon. But probably not for long.

"This is my teacher" has wildly different connotations than "This is my Master" or worse "This is my Grandmaster". The first correctly defines a proper relationship. He teaches. You study and pay him the respect due his years and experience.

The second doesn't just say you're in a hierarchy in which he's senior. It means that he is the Master and you are the servant or the slave. As a lover of freedom and a believer in the fundamental dignity and worth of every human being I have a positive allergy to anyone who demands that you acknowledge him as your Master and yourself as a lesser order of creature. Even if you say "It's just showing respect" it sets up something abhorrent and disgusting. He has rights and powers over your person and your free will outside of the student-teacher relationship.

Look at how you've bought into it. You believe that the fact that you pay him money gives him the right to decide what you do with your life. You have to have his "blessing". There's something there which is simply wrong. Even the most Confucian boy from a traditional Chinese family grows up and starts a family of his own at which point he makes decisions based on what is in the best interests of his family.

It puts me in mind of a friend who was in law school. For various non-discrimmination and CYA reasons the school anonymized tests. Students were identified by a number. One day he got back a test and felt he'd been done poorly by. He went to the professor. She started busting his chops. Finally he said "I don't mind getting treated like this. I don't even mind paying to be treated like this. But if I'm going to pay to be treated like this I want you to wear a little leather bikini while you do it."

 

[BrandonLucas]

The Glove and the Lions by James Leigh Hunt​

King Francis was a hearty king, and loved a royal sport,
And one day, as his lions fought, sat looking on the court.
The nobles filled the benches, with the ladies in their pride,
And 'mongst them sat the Count de Lorge, with one for whom he signed:
And truly 'twas a gallant thing to see that crowning show,
Valor and love, and a king above, and the royal beasts below.

Ramped and roared the lions, with horrid laughing jaws;
They bit, they glared, gave blows like beams, a wind went with their paws;
With wallowing might and stifled roar they rolled on one another,
Till all the pit with sand and mane was in a thunderous smother;
The bloody foam above the bars came whisking through the air;
Said Francis then, "Faith, gentlemen, we're better here than there."

De Lorge's love o'er heard the King, a beauteous lively dame,
With smiling lips and sharp bright eyes, which always seemed the same;
She thought, The Count my lover is brave as brave can be;
He surely would do wondrous things to show his love of me;
King, ladies, lovers, all look on; the occasion is divine;
I'll drop my glove, to prove his love; great glory will be mine.

She dropped her glove, to prove his love, then looked at him and smiled;
He bowed, and in a moment leaped among the lions wild:
The leap was quick, return was quick, he has regained his place,
Then threw the glove, but not with love, right in the lady's face.
"By Heaven," said Francis, "rightly done!" and he rose from where he sat;
"No love," quoth he, "but vanity, sets love a task like that."
​

Martial arts uniforms should come with a copy of this poem.

When I did Japanese martial arts the teacher was called "Sensei" which loosely translates to "One who went there first" or "teacher". When real eighth and ninth dans came over from Japan they were "Sensei".

Fencing? It was "Mister Skrudlik" or "Mister Jensen" or "Coach". Even in more formal settings it was "This is my fencing teacher, the Maitre des Armes Loren Higley."

When I did Chinese martial arts and Kajukenbo/WHKD the teacher was called "Sifu". Teacher. My teacher's teacher was "Si Gung", from the same root as "Grandfather".

Eskrima? The teacher was called "Guro" which means "teacher".

Muay Thai? "Ajarn" or "Kru". "Teacher" again.

The short time I spent at Team Quest before cancer took a chunk out of my training the guy teaching was "Rob" or "Coach". Once in a great while the guy teaching was "Randy" or, once again, "Coach".

Now I do Silat. The teacher is called "Guru" which, surprise, surprise, is the word for "teacher".

My first Silat teacher has always been "Brandt".

What do I call my current martial arts teacher? Well, after sixteen years plus years I figure we're on a first-name basis. So in class he's "Guru", but the rest of the time he's "Steve". When we're doing weapons his manner changes. It's hard not to call him "Sergeant" because those three chevrons and three rockers sort of fade into view.

My wife studied with one of the best students Guro Inosanto ever turned out, Rick Faye. I believe the children in the kids' class call him "Guro". But he insists that everyone else call him "Rick".

Do you see a pattern here? I respect the hell out of these men and women. To a large degree it's because they don't demand a florid display of self-abasement and ornate flattery. If they did I might bite my tongue and humor them if what they had was Sinanju with liberal sprinklings of the Secret Lost Book of Shaolin and the unexpurgated Necronomicon. But probably not for long.

"This is my teacher" has wildly different connotations than "This is my Master" or worse "This is my Grandmaster". The first correctly defines a proper relationship. He teaches. You study and pay him the respect due his years and experience.

The second doesn't just say you're in a hierarchy in which he's senior. It means that he is the Master and you are the servant or the slave. As a lover of freedom and a believer in the fundamental dignity and worth of every human being I have a positive allergy to anyone who demands that you acknowledge him as your Master and yourself as a lesser order of creature. Even if you say "It's just showing respect" it sets up something abhorrent and disgusting. He has rights and powers over your person and your free will outside of the student-teacher relationship.

Look at how you've bought into it. You believe that the fact that you pay him money gives him the right to decide what you do with your life. You have to have his "blessing". There's something there which is simply wrong. Even the most Confucian boy from a traditional Chinese family grows up and starts a family of his own at which point he makes decisions based on what is in the best interests of his family.

It puts me in mind of a friend who was in law school. For various non-discrimmination and CYA reasons the school anonymized tests. Students were identified by a number. One day he got back a test and felt he'd been done poorly by. He went to the professor. She started busting his chops. Finally he said "I don't mind getting treated like this. I don't even mind paying to be treated like this. But if I'm going to pay to be treated like this I want you to wear a little leather bikini while you do it."

I agree with what you're saying here. 100%.

No disrespect inteded with this...

This is a great argument for another thread. It really doesn't help out the OP in regards to adjusting to a new situation and the confusion that comes with it.

Not that I don't agree with what you're saying...just trying to keep everything on topic...

 

[tellner]

You're right. It does veer away in some particulars. However, I do think the point of the article is appropriate to the OP. Don't worry about it. Keep it in perspective. You're a grownup spending time as you see fit. The guy with the extra-fancy workout clothes has no legitimate claim on you other than your attention while you're in class and your fees at the beginning of the month and.

It's all a matter of keeping things in perspective. In the martial arts loss of perspective is the heart of the marketing strategy.

 

[Twin Fist]

with that attitude, you should just go to a gym

you just dont get it

Just2kicku, I'm sorry to say that that is one of the most depressing things I have heard in a long time. Somewhere along the way the martial arts world lost its collective sense of perspective. Using loaded words like "Master" was a big part of the problem. I'd be in favor of giving ten swift kicks to the tender parts of any martial arts student who calls his teacher "Master", twenty for "Grandmaster" and fifty or sixty to the bloated egos which demand grandiose terms like that.

• You're learning a set of athletic skills in a club.
• The guy with the funny clothes is a coach.
• You're a free, mentally competent adult human being who is paying good money to enjoy a hobby.
• That means you do what you perceive as being in your own best interest.

If you want to add another hobby that's your decision. If it makes you progress a bit more slowly in the first one the only question is whether your ultimate joy and personal fulfillment suffer as a result. The head coach may decide that he doesn't want your business. That's his decision. But for crissake, man, you're not a freaking slave cringing while he asks his owner's permission to breathe.

 

[MJS]

Hey all...there may be a thread on this that I haven't found, so forgive me if I missed one!

I trained for 12 years in EPAK and earned a 1st degree black belt before leaving for college (where the nearest Kenpo school is 3 hours away); this year I have begun training at a Cha San Ryu dojo near my school (after taking a 2-year hiatus from MA), and while I love it, a few questions are bothering me.

Stylistically, some things are very different--I am an American-trained martial artist learning a Japanese system, so I expected this. For instance, at my last test I broke a board (which we never did at home), and I have learned a "forward stance" as opposed to a "guard/fighting stance" (which we didn't even differentiate at home). These things I have accepted, because I'm certainly not going to go into someone's dojo and ask them to train me, then turn around and tell them they're doing it wrong.

I suppose my issue arises with little things--this morning I realized that my gear bag (which I have been using for 14 years) is starting to wear thin with some holes, but part of me is loathe to purchase one from my new school. My instructors here allow me (and want me) to continue wearing my Kenpo black belt, and once in a while Sensei will ask me how I was taught to do something before--in all, I have absolutely no complaints about my new school. I suppose therein lies the problem.

Is it disloyal to my first instructors and first system to "convert" wholeheartedly to my new dojo and its way of doing things? I absolutely love Cha San Ryu and the people I get to be with through my studies of it, but is it wrong to unswervingly adopt their way of standing/training/fighting? I feel like there should be a better way to express this question, but hopefully you guys will know what I mean....

Thanks!
~Ani

IMHO, I don't see any of this as being disloyal to anyone. I'm assuming by your post, that you havent done any Kenpo training in a while, due to chnages in your life, ie: college. You seem to still have a love for the martial arts, so theres nothing wrong with continuing on with training. As far as the differences in material go...you may find that things are similar, although they have a different name. You mention the forward stance, yet in Kenpo, there is the forward bow stance. I'm only going off of the name here, so I may be wrong, as I don't know the forward stance in your new art.

Like I said, keep training, as you seem to enjoy it. There is nothing wrong with starting something new.

Mike

 

[MJS]

The other issue thats come up in this thread, regarding asking permission to train in something else...IMO, I don't think its really necessary. What I want to train in, outside of another art, is my business. Could you ask as a courtesy? Sure, I suppose, but lets say your teacher said no, then what? You're not going to do something YOU want to do because someone else said no?

A story that happened to me. One of my old Kenpo instructors, had some issues with another gentleman, who at one time trained at the same school as I, but as time went, on, he eventually opened his own school. I maintained a good friendship with this other inst., who is also a member of this forum. So because my teacher had a problem with this person, I was supposed to have a problem with him as well? I was supposed to sever any and all ties to this man, because someone else had a problem with him?

Sorry, IMO, it doesn't work that way. I had no issues with this person, and to this day, still do not have any.

 

[matt.m]

Man,

You left town and began training in a different style. When you left you had the blessing of your instructor. It wasn't as if you were just going across town or across the street for the same art just different people.

You were and are not being disloyal, plus if you think about it the new place you went to is showing a lot of humility by letting you wear a black belt from your old system.