McDojo -- how do you define it?
- Thread starter Rumy73
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Cyriacus
Senior Master
Yeah. A few years ago i, an ignorant newbie to martial arts, spent a year and a bit learning how to not hit anyone whilst backpedalling. Of course, it was a highly effective martial art that was too deadly to be practiced with any contact, and it was drastically overpriced because if you want the best you get what you pay for. Oh, and the instructor was allowed to hit people because shutup. Also, if a block or strike wasnt working its because your technique wasnt good enough and you needed to train more. Nothing wrong with the method, obviously. Now i find it hilariously stupid, but they had alot of students, mostly kids, being taught this self defense. There were also numerous adults, who, after about two years spent getting their black belts after a rather expensive black belt grading, were molded into instructors, for a fee, by the head instructor. If you werent interested, you never progressed. Theyd attached alot of time and money to it by that point, and based on that i can say with confidence that the blinkers were on.
Theres alot more than that, but ill just move along:
Its easier to take the term McDojo when youve seen it. Im just glad i wasnt stupid enough to get sucked into it any longer than i was, and that the moment i started seeing the problems, i ditched them for something better in every way and spent another year or so resenting the fact that i had to un-learn everything id drilled in there. Basically, that meant unlearning being too far away to do anything, unlearning slow motion windups before a fast movement, unlearning backpedalling the moment something comes toward you, and unlearning a one-hit-one-kill mindset. But generally, somethings wrong when A; You were better at hitting stuff before you started, and B; The training caused actually being in range and actually making any contact to be a serious conscious effort. And C; You didnt learn anything youd actually be able to use under pressure. What i despise most though? When you learn something new, you tend to unlearn some of what youd do naturally. When you unlearn that, and learn something to replace it, you override that further, but you have to or you might not forget the first one for a while. Honestly, if i could magically forget every bit of training id ever done just to retain some more of that natural response rather than trained method, id do it in a splitsecond. But i cant, so overriding things as best i can was the best and only option, even if something was lost along the way.
So yes, the term is judgmental and crass. And so it should be. Stupid is stupid however you spin it, and there shouldnt be a term for it that isnt judgemental. And a term absolutely should exist, because ive read about places far worse than that, and far more expensive. I couldnt care less about the dumbing down of the art, i care about people paying to be dumbed down and not knowing its happening.
Theres alot more than that, but ill just move along:
Its easier to take the term McDojo when youve seen it. Im just glad i wasnt stupid enough to get sucked into it any longer than i was, and that the moment i started seeing the problems, i ditched them for something better in every way and spent another year or so resenting the fact that i had to un-learn everything id drilled in there. Basically, that meant unlearning being too far away to do anything, unlearning slow motion windups before a fast movement, unlearning backpedalling the moment something comes toward you, and unlearning a one-hit-one-kill mindset. But generally, somethings wrong when A; You were better at hitting stuff before you started, and B; The training caused actually being in range and actually making any contact to be a serious conscious effort. And C; You didnt learn anything youd actually be able to use under pressure. What i despise most though? When you learn something new, you tend to unlearn some of what youd do naturally. When you unlearn that, and learn something to replace it, you override that further, but you have to or you might not forget the first one for a while. Honestly, if i could magically forget every bit of training id ever done just to retain some more of that natural response rather than trained method, id do it in a splitsecond. But i cant, so overriding things as best i can was the best and only option, even if something was lost along the way.
So yes, the term is judgmental and crass. And so it should be. Stupid is stupid however you spin it, and there shouldnt be a term for it that isnt judgemental. And a term absolutely should exist, because ive read about places far worse than that, and far more expensive. I couldnt care less about the dumbing down of the art, i care about people paying to be dumbed down and not knowing its happening.
celtic_crippler
Senior Master
In my humble opinion, a "McDojo" is a "martial arts" school that puts financial gain above maintaining the integrity of the arts.
I think the most commonly accepted example of "McDojo" behavior is the promotion of those that lack skill and maturity. A school where one can obtain the rank of black belt in a year's time or less is usually a prime example. It gives the impression that one can simply "buy" their rank without earning it.
Some would extend that to awarding children the rank of black belt. Personally, I don't believe a child posesses the mental capacity to be a "black belt" even if they can mimic the motion, but that's a subject for another thread.
The term "McDojo" arose due to commercial schools moving students through the program to the rank of "black belt" in such a speedy manner as to be equated with a line of customers at a drive-through at a fast food restaraunt.
Americans have developed quite a short attention span over the years and demand "instant gratification." Recognizing this behavior, many schools adopted a "assembly line" mentality as a business model and began churning out "black belts" left and right... and so, you have the development of the "McDojo."
I think the most commonly accepted example of "McDojo" behavior is the promotion of those that lack skill and maturity. A school where one can obtain the rank of black belt in a year's time or less is usually a prime example. It gives the impression that one can simply "buy" their rank without earning it.
Some would extend that to awarding children the rank of black belt. Personally, I don't believe a child posesses the mental capacity to be a "black belt" even if they can mimic the motion, but that's a subject for another thread.
The term "McDojo" arose due to commercial schools moving students through the program to the rank of "black belt" in such a speedy manner as to be equated with a line of customers at a drive-through at a fast food restaraunt.
Americans have developed quite a short attention span over the years and demand "instant gratification." Recognizing this behavior, many schools adopted a "assembly line" mentality as a business model and began churning out "black belts" left and right... and so, you have the development of the "McDojo."
Try searching it, sometimes theres a thread for exactly what you're looking for!
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/45321-How-do-you-define-a-quot-mcdojo-quot
Just out of curiosity, why did you post this in TKD? There are mcdojos in all forms of MA, it's not specific to TKD.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/45321-How-do-you-define-a-quot-mcdojo-quot
Just out of curiosity, why did you post this in TKD? There are mcdojos in all forms of MA, it's not specific to TKD.
celtic_crippler
Senior Master
Just a guess, but after looking at their profile I would assume it's because they are a TKD practicioner.
That being said, a lot of TKD schools get labeled as such and I can see why this would be frustrating to someone in that system.
Unfortunately, I also got caught in a McDojo. I had given my karate away a few years earlier and someone knocked on my door offering what I thought was a similar style MA. (In fact it was a breakaway from my original style.). The 'instructor', who was wearing a black belt in class turned out to be a junior brown belt, which explained his lack of ability from my point of view. I had to go back to white belt, which didn't bother me, and pay through the nose to grade, which did. I went in one of their tournaments but lost points for 'touching' my opponent. One the other hand, my opponent scored points for punching the air a foot in front of my face, which I failed to block because I hadn't perceived it to be a threat, and kiaiing extra loudly.
I actually just went to look on their website where they talk about training in a 'non-contact' environment. Yeah, right! That sounds like RBSD ... not!
This organisation is quite large and very successful for the owner and franchisees but offers nothing in the way of self defence and very little of value in a training sense. But they do take your money.
i very soon left and found another school. :asian:
I actually just went to look on their website where they talk about training in a 'non-contact' environment. Yeah, right! That sounds like RBSD ... not!
This organisation is quite large and very successful for the owner and franchisees but offers nothing in the way of self defence and very little of value in a training sense. But they do take your money.
i very soon left and found another school. :asian:
The main thing that defines a McDojo for me is a school that will "Fast track" a student to black belt in one or two years for an extra charge. I attended one school briefly that wanted to test me and basically give me yellow belt for 120 bucks. This doesn't sound like something to complain about, but realize I passed their "test" and I had taken a total of 3 one hour classes and obviously didn't have the knowledge or skill required. I told them that I would not be participating anymore, they could keep their belt and never went back.
Another qualifier is a dojo that claims to teach an art when it is clear the instructors are not qualified or they use a martial arts name for popularity's sake and they don't actually teach that art at all. This is unfortunately common with so called Krav Maga schools. It is unethical and despicable. It's also fraud and they should be prosecuted for such in my opinion.
The last qualifier for title of Mcdojo that comes to mind is the dojos that claim self defense training and really teach a watered down tournament style. Don't get me wrong, tournaments are great fun. I have nothing against them. But don't teach your students that they are capable of defending themselves and teach them bad habits like keeping their hands down because strikes to the face aren't legal in tournament sparring. This is also fraud in my eyes. Teaching self defense should be key, if tournament sparring comes with that, then great. Now that being said, if a school is upfront about teaching specifically tournament martial arts, then I have no problem with that. Just be honest.
That is the basics of my qualifications for a Mcdojo.
Another qualifier is a dojo that claims to teach an art when it is clear the instructors are not qualified or they use a martial arts name for popularity's sake and they don't actually teach that art at all. This is unfortunately common with so called Krav Maga schools. It is unethical and despicable. It's also fraud and they should be prosecuted for such in my opinion.
The last qualifier for title of Mcdojo that comes to mind is the dojos that claim self defense training and really teach a watered down tournament style. Don't get me wrong, tournaments are great fun. I have nothing against them. But don't teach your students that they are capable of defending themselves and teach them bad habits like keeping their hands down because strikes to the face aren't legal in tournament sparring. This is also fraud in my eyes. Teaching self defense should be key, if tournament sparring comes with that, then great. Now that being said, if a school is upfront about teaching specifically tournament martial arts, then I have no problem with that. Just be honest.
That is the basics of my qualifications for a Mcdojo.
Cyriacus
Senior Master
He may have bought it on ebay...
Lol that is actually quite funny that you point that out. But imagine ranking up in any fighting system by walking in and paying for the rank. It would be like going to sign up for college courses and paying extra to just have a degree signed over to you. It does a disservice to the art. Not only do people not learn the art properly which could get them potentially hurt, but eventually if everyone learns this way... well it could potentially mean the end of a martial art down the road.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
1. overcharging. There is nothing wrong with making a good profit from martial arts as long as students get value for that money. 2.Passing grading is based upon your cheque clearing. A grading is an exam, no different from any other exam, if you stuff up you fail. Try again next time. 3. A martial arts instructor should have decent rank in the art to teach it. If the instructor leaves their first gup student to look after class every other night, its probably a mcdojo. 4. A dojo is a place to train. If you enter the dojo and kids are running around playing "tiggy" or tackling each other and laughing, yelling and screaming......you could well be in a mcdojo. 5. If merely "showing up to class" for a couple of years without any real tests or challenges along the way will ensure the 'inevitable' black belt, its a mcdojo. 6.practice what you preach. If you have a sign out the front with a picture of two guys sparring at the olympics, you should be kkw accredited. If you splash "self defence" all over your advertising material, then some real self defence should be taught. 7.black belt contracts are a staple of mcdojos.
*just an edit - one of these points by itself would not necessarily make a school a mcdojo, but once you start to tick two or three boxes its time to worry.
*just an edit - one of these points by itself would not necessarily make a school a mcdojo, but once you start to tick two or three boxes its time to worry.
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Love it! :cheers:
A Mcdojo is what some people want and others don't. A Mcdojo is a school that offers watered down martial arts training.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I have feeling I know of this school. A friend of mine had a very similar experience there.
All American tae kwon do association (ATA) schools and united studios of self defense! Many others like Dillman and Pelligrini run and certify bullshido type schools.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
OUCH.
Sad that Pelligrini is now certifying TKD BB. Went to a Bill Wallace seminar his group hosted. At one point they announced that as part of a BB test some people would now perform a pattern. After the pattern I asked my guys. "How did you like Po Eun?" Their response "That was Po Eun?". It was almostrunrecognizeable.
Talked to the people who did it and it seems they only did one or 2 patterns for BB Rank, as opposed to the standard 3 for 1st thru 5th. I'd also bet dollars to dounuts that if I asked them why they did techniques a certain way, they would be clueless.
Why would it be judgemental or crass? Perhaps it is an honest assesstment. And it is a dumbing down of the arts.
Elements that would make a McDojo (or McDojang)...
Putting commercial/financial goals above the integrity of the art.
Teaching cookie-cutter kata/forms without actually knowing what those katas/forms contain.
Rushing to teach a kata/form so that the student can get that next pretty colored belt in the three month time frame...because if they don't they're liable to go somewhere else i.e. gotta keep the carrot in front of them rather than teaching slow and methodically with the art actually fullfilling the need rather than an exterior trinket.
Black belts running around that are still in diapers and aren't potty-trained.
Those that teach sport arts that go on to claim it is viable for self-defense.
The instructor joins every organization they can find just to get the wall candy or pad the bio but then does nothing for that organization.
There's more, but that should do for now.
I couldn't have said it any better myself. The moment teaching martial arts becomes about the bottom line, all is lost. Really great schools can be profitable but they are profitable because they are great. Excellent understanding of the art and excellent ability to pass it on to dedicated students should be the keystones.
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