martial arts taught in public schools

[Drac]

Admitttedly when I was at school I hated the organised games..

Over here it was volleyball and flag football...I'd have been happier working out in the weight room..

 

[kosho]

I think its a great idear to have martial arts offered in unified arts
in schools of middle school 7Th grade and up.
Myself I have been asked to come up with a offer to a private school in my area. and teach about 40 - 60 middle school kids.
If this passes by the parents it will be a go...
kosho

 

[Robert Lee]

That was the idea when Karate started to spread it was changed new kata added and it was offerd in schools. Now in the U S A. it could work. first We should never bow to a flag of a different country. That may have been the begining as M/A was introduced more here but it has gone on to be a tradition in different schools that hold no value to this country. At risk students could and would benifit from a structured M/A class helping them set goals and have better respect not only for there self but to others. And who knows it Could help change the over all view of many a young person as to how some act and rspond to todays life style. It would need private and grant funds to be seperate from normal school budgets. And in areas it would start as a probationary program to more or less prove to the public and school boards the benifit of it. Keep all politics out of the program. And use it as an aid not an asset for money purposes but a salary perhaps After it develops and spreads and funds come in for support of it. This would be a positive aspect Will not happen in all places but time responds to needs. Nothing wrong in teaching M/A in public schools if it helps todays youth.

 

[Kacey]

It is a responsibility to have the ability to kick someones ***, you know provocation, reasonable force that kind of thing.

Why? I have been in TKD for nearly 20 years; my instructor (an internationally ranked fighter before he retired from competition) for nearly 27. He has always taught me, and I have always taught my students, that the first rule of self-defense is to not get into a situation where you need to defend yourself. There will always be someone stronger, younger, faster, better trained, better armed, etc. Do I think that I could defend myself in most situations? Certainly. But I will still avoid confrontation whenever possible.

I'm not sure as a teen i would have been up to making the right decisions, having said that everyone is different.

You sound like a teen, pumped full of testosterone and ego. Are you truly advocating that everyone needs to learn how to "kick someones ***", and do you truly see that as a positive thing?

 

[CuongNhuka]

In my histroy class we have a German exchange student. Mr. Kastrick (the teacher, historian, and philosopher) was lecturing on education. Not the usual "education is good, get an education or else" thing. Instead it was, why eduaction in America is messed up. Kastrick asked Michael (the exchange student) which worked better, American or German. Michael replied that German does. The people are so focused on education that NOT trying at school is horrible.
That didn't surprise me in the least. America seems to be one of few places were education is seen by the masses as often little more then a play thing. What he said next blew me out of the water. "In America, going to school, it's like jail. It's like going to prison". At our school skipping and showing up late is so common that once every two days we have a hall sweep, or three. A "hall sweep" is were the teachers who aren't working, the security guards, and the admin. all go through the halls and bathrooms, an teahcers lock the doors. Any caught is given detention. No big deal.
Things like this tell me that Michael is right. Going to school is almost a punishment as a large portion of students see it. Sports are also seen by many people as a way to gaining power over other students. Education and sports are two of the greatest gifts in the world. And both are free to them. People who are unwilling to accpet such gifts do not deserve a reward like martial arts.

 

[Robert Lee]

In my histroy class we have a German exchange student. Mr. Kastrick (the teacher, historian, and philosopher) was lecturing on education. Not the usual "education is good, get an education or else" thing. Instead it was, why eduaction in America is messed up. Kastrick asked Michael (the exchange student) which worked better, American or German. Michael replied that German does. The people are so focused on education that NOT trying at school is horrible.
That didn't surprise me in the least. America seems to be one of few places were education is seen by the masses as often little more then a play thing. What he said next blew me out of the water. "In America, going to school, it's like jail. It's like going to prison". At our school skipping and showing up late is so common that once every two days we have a hall sweep, or three. A "hall sweep" is were the teachers who aren't working, the security guards, and the admin. all go through the halls and bathrooms, an teahcers lock the doors. Any caught is given detention. No big deal.
Things like this tell me that Michael is right. Going to school is almost a punishment as a large portion of students see it. Sports are also seen by many people as a way to gaining power over other students. Education and sports are two of the greatest gifts in the world. And both are free to them. People who are unwilling to accpet such gifts do not deserve a reward like martial arts.

But if M/A could help some to do better then would it not be a good thing. Yes America enjoys freedom at a larger scale then many countries That makes people expect and think different We have problems with youth guidance and support can help

 

[MJS]

It is a responsibility to have the ability to kick someones ***, you know provocation, reasonable force that kind of thing. I'm not sure as a teen i would have been up to making the right decisions, having said that everyone is different.

This is why it needs to be stressed, and not just in a program at a public school, but in every MA school, that fighting should be a last resort. Just like a good parent grooms their child to know right from wrong, etc., a good MA inst. should groom their students.

 

[MJS]

Why? I have been in TKD for nearly 20 years; my instructor (an internationally ranked fighter before he retired from competition) for nearly 27. He has always taught me, and I have always taught my students, that the first rule of self-defense is to not get into a situation where you need to defend yourself. There will always be someone stronger, younger, faster, better trained, better armed, etc. Do I think that I could defend myself in most situations? Certainly. But I will still avoid confrontation whenever possible.


You sound like a teen, pumped full of testosterone and ego. Are you truly advocating that everyone needs to learn how to "kick someones ***", and do you truly see that as a positive thing?

Well, looking at this thread, I'd say that some certainly have a different view of the Martial Arts. Then again, depending on how the statement is read, the OP could be meaning that one needs to be responsible with their actions and the skills that they have.

Mike

 

[jks9199]

I would have NO PROBLEM with it...It would beat being forced to spend hours doing push ups, sit ups, running etc..etc..while being berated about your weight and lack of coordination by some sadistic former jock now a PE Instructor to whom football is a religion and a lack of interest in it denotes a lack of masculinity..

Martial arts have a lot of plusses for a school/PE activity; it's something that you can do for a lifetime, for example. Unlike dodgeball.

(Wait... we just played dodgeball in the office... But we're weird and crazy!)

I could see having it as an "elective" during PE classes, and club or afterschool programs for those with more interest.

What I would like, though, is to see some realistic self defense, emphasizing situational awareness and simply principles taught from early grades through high school, ideally in a "building" program where some of the principles get introduced as games in early grades, then developed into practical skills as kids mature.

 

[CuongNhuka]

But if M/A could help some to do better then would it not be a good thing. Yes America enjoys freedom at a larger scale then many countries That makes people expect and think different We have problems with youth guidance and support can help

That might be true. But my expercience tells me that any program that teaches martial arts to students in high school like the one suggested would backfire. It would be turned into a weapon by some dumby, and he'll start a gang for all intensive purposes, and then all martial arts and martial artist will look like the bad guy.
It could work, but we still have a very long ways to wait until we are advanced as a speices to be able to handle such a gift. In the hands of humans many great things have been corrputed. And giving something that was at it's heart is already a weapon, to those not mature enough to handle it would a horrible thing to do. Lets not forget the martial arts as a whole were created to be used on the battle feild.

 

[Kwiter]

Schoolkids can train in wresting in high school...in theory I wouldn't have an issue with an option made for martial arts.

But in practice, the idea of making martial arts part of a taxpayer-funded public curriculum could be a minefield.

What would the fate of the program be when it becomes known that taxpayer funds to teach an art that involved bowing to Chinese ancestors? To a Buddhist altar? To a Korean flag? To each other?

How would Title IX concerns be addressed?

My wife is in the PTA of the local Grammer school our Daughters attend, she's been toying with the idea of asking our daughters Sensei if he would teach during the after school program 2-3 days a week for an hour or two, her plan is the PTA would fund it NOT the School board.

 

[Robert Lee]

That might be true. But my expercience tells me that any program that teaches martial arts to students in high school like the one suggested would backfire. It would be turned into a weapon by some dumby, and he'll start a gang for all intensive purposes, and then all martial arts and martial artist will look like the bad guy.
It could work, but we still have a very long ways to wait until we are advanced as a speices to be able to handle such a gift. In the hands of humans many great things have been corrputed. And giving something that was at it's heart is already a weapon, to those not mature enough to handle it would a horrible thing to do. Lets not forget the martial arts as a whole were created to be used on the battle feild.

Then why in other countries M/A was introduced to the schools many years ago. It is not only self defence but an exersise program also. M/A should not be looked at as a gift something only the right person can learn. Young people have less control of there emotions Thats a given. But when respect is learned they learn much more control. Toady we see an increase in out of conditioned youth, higher rates of violance by youth. Just lifting a youths spirit can change how they react. It has been many years since M/A was trained for the battle field as a strong source Sure hand to hand combat includes it but M/A is far removed from war now days. Guns, planes, bombs , and ships are main stay war machines. Chuck norris introduced and Idead several years ago. It has helped many a youth go on and lead productive lifes. Care, trying, And wanting to reach out and help starts something. That something Can not help all people but helps so many its worth the trying. Not just M/A but any program that improves youth is worth doing. Most M/A type are not abusing what they have learned Most credit there training on how it helped them in many phases of there life. People who know how to fight ,fight much less then others because they feel less a need to prove there self and are much more in control of there anger.

 

[Drac]

Martial arts have a lot of plusses for a school/PE activity; it's something that you can do for a lifetime, for example. Unlike dodgeball

I agree 100%

Wait... we just played dodgeball in the office... But we're weird and crazy!

It was mostly for us to let off excessive steam

I could see having it as an "elective" during PE classes, and club or afterschool programs for those with more interest

Yes and elective would be great..An afterschool program is subject to budgetary problems and the FIRST items to suffer are afterschool programs..

What I would like, though, is to see some realistic self defense, emphasizing situational awareness and simply principles taught from early grades through high school, ideally in a "building" program where some of the principles get introduced as games in early grades, then developed into practical skills as kids mature.

Works for me...

 

[exile]

I have found that some of the kids that HATED sports were more receptive to MA training

This rings a deep bell with me. When I was in grade school, it was all team sports, and I hated team sports. You had no options, though—you had to take gym, and gym was basketball, baseball or football. When I started university, everyone had to do two years of phys ed (this was a LONG time ago!), and I was resigned to it, but it turned out that there were all kinds of individual sports on offer—I did four semesters of fencing and tennis and it was terrific. I'm certain that if I had had the chance to do MAs as a grade school kid, gym wouldn't have been something I dreaded so much, and hated because of the way it left me feeling defeated all the time. I think that a lot of the time, kids who think they hate sports actually hate group activities... they/we are just built that way... it's not sports per se, but they think it is because there are nothing but team sports on offer at their schools.

 

[Tez3]

Exile, I agree with you. I hated team sports while at school. We never had a choice what sport it was. My father had taught me to play football (soccer) but girls weren't allowed to play it when I was at school so it had to be hockey, freezing cold and miserable standing waiting for the ball to be passed to me which it hardly ever was as I wasn't good at it. Ugh, it makes me shiver thinking about it and its been over 30 years. it wasn't till I joined the RAF that I had a chance to try other sports, fencing being one. We did some self defence stuff but that was it as far as martial arts were concerned. It was pre Bruce Lee and Judo was probably the only known MA in the country at the time. Though in hindsight I've realised there were karate clubs around only not really for women. I would have loved to do martial arts at school!

 

[exile]

Exile, I agree with you. I hated team sports while at school. We never had a choice what sport it was. My father had taught me to play football (soccer) but girls weren't allowed to play it when I was at school so it had to be hockey, freezing cold and miserable standing waiting for the ball to be passed to me which it hardly ever was as I wasn't good at it. Ugh, it makes me shiver thinking about it and its been over 30 years. it wasn't till I joined the RAF that I had a chance to try other sports, fencing being one. We did some self defence stuff but that was it as far as martial arts were concerned. It was pre Bruce Lee and Judo was probably the only known MA in the country at the time. Though in hindsight I've realised there were karate clubs around only not really for women. I would have loved to do martial arts at school!

This conjures up some pictures I know all too well, Tez... especially the lack of choice. I too know that if there had been MAs available at the time I'd have jumped at the chance...

The problem with team sports then, and now, is that they come with a prepackaged `star system' where the golden boys and girls form a tight little clique at court center, and the less talented fan out from that center in increasing radii of decreasing talent. Which is fine, as long as you're given a chance to find the thing you're good at, instead of being forced to occupy sixth wheel status and constant reminders of just how useless you are at, say, bat/ball games, which I was—never had the hand/eye coordination for batting, throwing or catching. But it turned out I had good eye/hand coordination for raquet games like tennis and table tennis, and other stuff as well. They just weren't available then in grade school. I understand that things have changed...

The thing a lot of kids respond to is the chance to improve their performance by investment of individual effort in training. What puts them off team sports in many cases is the hierarchical structure that most teams embody (in spite of the tired old cliche about `there is no `I' in `team' ... )

 

[KempoFlow]

Teaching it in school as a requirement I would say that as a parent I don't think it would be effective. I think most of us have seen kids in class that don't want to be there and what that entails as far as teaching the child the way to behave while in the dojo. I don't think in a public school setting the methods and discipline would come across.

Now teaching it as an extra curricular activity, I would be all for it! For those who want to learn but can't afford to take classes it would be a wonderful opportunity.

 

[Tames D]

I would like to see it mandatory in the school system. I believe it would help improve the bully situation by giving the victims better physical abilities and a confidence boost. I also think (or hope) that the bullies would gain a new insight in terms of respect for others. Unfortunately, I don't think it would ever materialize.

 

[exile]

I would like to see it mandatory in the school system. I believe it would help improve the bully situation by giving the victims better physical abilities and a confidence boost. I also think (or hope) that the bullies would gain a new insight in terms of respect for others. Unfortunately, I don't think it would ever materialize.

I understand your angle, Qui-Gon, and with a nine-year old in 4th grade—a very sweet-natured little boy who has had problems with bullies from time to time—I'm very sympathetic to the idea that MAs can teach kids to defend themselves from bullies and give bullies some disciplined structure for their aggressiveness that includes emphasis on respect for others. My reluctance to see MAs as mandatory comes from my own experience with mandatory sports etc. in school—in any group of people, for any given activity, there will some members of that group who just can't abide the activity no matter what it is. In some cases, there's no way around it—even if you don't think reading or counting is your thing, you're gonna have to learn to do it! But I don't see MAs having comparable status. I'd rather see MAs either as one option in a menu of choices in the regular phy ed program in schools, or as a well-supported extracurricular activity with a lot of info available to parents about the advantages for kids in taking MAs, along the lines you sketch. A kid who really, really doesn't want to do karate or TKD or wing chun or whatever isn't going to benefit from it; s/he's just going to be upset, frustrated and, ultimately, very angry...

 

[Tames D]

I understand your angle, Qui-Gon, and with a nine-year old in 4th grade—a very sweet-natured little boy who has had problems with bullies from time to time—I'm very sympathetic to the idea that MAs can teach kids to defend themselves from bullies and give bullies some disciplined structure for their aggressiveness that includes emphasis on respect for others. My reluctance to see MAs as mandatory comes from my own experience with mandatory sports etc. in school—in any group of people, for any given activity, there will some members of that group who just can't abide the activity no matter what it is. In some cases, there's no way around it—even if you don't think reading or counting is your thing, you're gonna have to learn to do it! But I don't see MAs having comparable status. I'd rather see MAs either as one option in a menu of choices in the regular phy ed program in schools, or as a well-supported extracurricular activity with a lot of info available to parents about the advantages for kids in taking MAs, along the lines you sketch. A kid who really, really doesn't want to do karate or TKD or wing chun or whatever isn't going to benefit from it; s/he's just going to be upset, frustrated and, ultimately, very angry...

I see your point and I actually agree with you. My concern is that if it was optional, then the kids that need it the most (victims and bullies) won't utilize it and benefit from it. I know from my experience that I have excelled the most at things that I had to do, when I didn't have a choice.

I've thought alot about this bully issue because my kids are getting to the age where they are going to encounter bullies and it's a tough issue to figure out. I've been fortunate not to ever have had to deal with bullies and I think it is directly related to being in Martial Arts at a very young age. It gave me the ability to defend myself. In my case it was mandatory and I thank my dad for that.

So, I guess I have mixed feelings and I do see your point.